subject:"\[Kicad\-developers\] kicad version and install location"

Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-19 Thread Wayne Stambaugh

Keep in mind that as long as there is a shared user configuration
between versions, there is the potential for issues due to the storage
of environment variables in the user config.  The only way to ensure
there will be no version issues is to ensure each new version has a
separate user config.  Installing versions in separate paths will not be
enough.

On 7/19/2018 12:35 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> It's definitely technically possible for macOS--but as I'm continuing
> to think about it, even if I whipped this patch up and tested it,
> *and* I convinced enough people it worked, just thinking about all the
> places in the docs where the macOS paths would have to change, I'm
> thinking we *have* to wait.
> 
> Please let's get this in before V6...
> 
> Adam
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 11:25 PM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:
>>
>> It's a good idea but it's coming after we've already tagged v5.  Are we 
>> thinking of a patch on the packaging?  I don't quite follow the proposal for 
>> how this gets implemented.  For debian, we could place a patch in the build 
>> package.  I assume that there is something similar for rpms but I'd be 
>> curious to know how this would be implemented for Mac/Windows.
>>
>> -Seth
>>
>> Am Mi., 18. Juli 2018 um 21:08 Uhr schrieb Adam Wolf 
>> :
>>>
>>> On Mac, we have the advantage of users not setting environment variables.  
>>> This makes me think this *could* potentially be feasible for 5.0, for MacOS.
>>>
>>> However, I do not know if we would want this feature on one platform and 
>>> not the others. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 12:40 PM Andy Peters  wrote:

 On Jul 16, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Mark Roszko  wrote:
>
> Yeathats what I proposed too.
>
> Every program on Windows that needs side-by-side installs just
> versions both the config and install locations. Thats it.
>
> EAGLE does it.
> Visual Studio does.
> Altium does it.
> CLion does it.
> All of Jetbrains other product do it.
> Microsoft Word does it
> Adobe does it.
> Python does it.
> MSSQL does it.
> 
>
> No need for crazy launcher args and extreme actions such as doing
> something like RVM does
>
> All that needs to be done, is find all instances of wxStandardPaths
> being used for config location.
> Replace it with a standard static function helper. In the helper, it
> appends a version number to the location.
>
> Thats it. Done. No need to require users to understand command line to
> use a program.
>
> It works for linux too.
> /home/user/.kicad/
> becomes
> /home/user/.kicad/5.1/

 And on the Mac that would be

 /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad

 becomes

 /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad/5.1

 and /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad

 becomes

 /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad/5.1

 -a
>>>
>>> ___
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> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-19 Thread Adam Wolf

Alright.  Thanks Bernhard.  I still suspect that it's very rare compared to
users with custom environment variables on Windows and Linux.

This is yet another reason that this can't get done by Friday.

Adam

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 1:06 AM Bernhard Stegmaier 
wrote:

> I wouldn’t rely on that.
> You can set paths on macOS and at least I needed it to do in my setup
> before Wayne made the path configuration dialog.
> So, I wouldn’t bet that there are no such macOS installs out there… :)
>
>
> Regards,
> Bernhard
>
> On 19. Jul 2018, at 06:07, Adam Wolf 
> wrote:
>
> On Mac, we have the advantage of users not setting environment variables.
> This makes me think this *could* potentially be feasible for 5.0, for MacOS.
>
> However, I do not know if we would want this feature on one platform and
> not the others. Thoughts?
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 12:40 PM Andy Peters  wrote:
>
>> On Jul 16, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Mark Roszko  wrote:
>> >
>> > Yeathats what I proposed too.
>> >
>> > Every program on Windows that needs side-by-side installs just
>> > versions both the config and install locations. Thats it.
>> >
>> > EAGLE does it.
>> > Visual Studio does.
>> > Altium does it.
>> > CLion does it.
>> > All of Jetbrains other product do it.
>> > Microsoft Word does it
>> > Adobe does it.
>> > Python does it.
>> > MSSQL does it.
>> > 
>> >
>> > No need for crazy launcher args and extreme actions such as doing
>> > something like RVM does
>> >
>> > All that needs to be done, is find all instances of wxStandardPaths
>> > being used for config location.
>> > Replace it with a standard static function helper. In the helper, it
>> > appends a version number to the location.
>> >
>> > Thats it. Done. No need to require users to understand command line to
>> > use a program.
>> >
>> > It works for linux too.
>> > /home/user/.kicad/
>> > becomes
>> > /home/user/.kicad/5.1/
>>
>> And on the Mac that would be
>>
>> /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad
>>
>> becomes
>>
>> /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad/5.1
>>
>> and /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad
>>
>> becomes
>>
>> /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad/5.1
>>
>> -a
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-19 Thread Bernhard Stegmaier

I wouldn’t rely on that.
You can set paths on macOS and at least I needed it to do in my setup before 
Wayne made the path configuration dialog.
So, I wouldn’t bet that there are no such macOS installs out there… :)


Regards,
Bernhard

> On 19. Jul 2018, at 06:07, Adam Wolf  wrote:
> 
> On Mac, we have the advantage of users not setting environment variables.  
> This makes me think this *could* potentially be feasible for 5.0, for MacOS.
> 
> However, I do not know if we would want this feature on one platform and not 
> the others. Thoughts?
> 
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 12:40 PM Andy Peters  > wrote:
> On Jul 16, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Mark Roszko  > wrote:
> > 
> > Yeathats what I proposed too.
> > 
> > Every program on Windows that needs side-by-side installs just
> > versions both the config and install locations. Thats it.
> > 
> > EAGLE does it.
> > Visual Studio does.
> > Altium does it.
> > CLion does it.
> > All of Jetbrains other product do it.
> > Microsoft Word does it
> > Adobe does it.
> > Python does it.
> > MSSQL does it.
> > 
> > 
> > No need for crazy launcher args and extreme actions such as doing
> > something like RVM does
> > 
> > All that needs to be done, is find all instances of wxStandardPaths
> > being used for config location.
> > Replace it with a standard static function helper. In the helper, it
> > appends a version number to the location.
> > 
> > Thats it. Done. No need to require users to understand command line to
> > use a program.
> > 
> > It works for linux too.
> > /home/user/.kicad/
> > becomes
> > /home/user/.kicad/5.1/
> 
> And on the Mac that would be
> 
> /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad 
> 
> becomes
> 
> /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad/5.1
> 
> and /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad 
> 
> becomes 
> 
> /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad/5.1
> 
> -a
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-18 Thread Adam Wolf

It's definitely technically possible for macOS--but as I'm continuing
to think about it, even if I whipped this patch up and tested it,
*and* I convinced enough people it worked, just thinking about all the
places in the docs where the macOS paths would have to change, I'm
thinking we *have* to wait.

Please let's get this in before V6...

Adam
On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 11:25 PM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:
>
> It's a good idea but it's coming after we've already tagged v5.  Are we 
> thinking of a patch on the packaging?  I don't quite follow the proposal for 
> how this gets implemented.  For debian, we could place a patch in the build 
> package.  I assume that there is something similar for rpms but I'd be 
> curious to know how this would be implemented for Mac/Windows.
>
> -Seth
>
> Am Mi., 18. Juli 2018 um 21:08 Uhr schrieb Adam Wolf 
> :
>>
>> On Mac, we have the advantage of users not setting environment variables.  
>> This makes me think this *could* potentially be feasible for 5.0, for MacOS.
>>
>> However, I do not know if we would want this feature on one platform and not 
>> the others. Thoughts?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 12:40 PM Andy Peters  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jul 16, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Mark Roszko  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Yeathats what I proposed too.
>>> >
>>> > Every program on Windows that needs side-by-side installs just
>>> > versions both the config and install locations. Thats it.
>>> >
>>> > EAGLE does it.
>>> > Visual Studio does.
>>> > Altium does it.
>>> > CLion does it.
>>> > All of Jetbrains other product do it.
>>> > Microsoft Word does it
>>> > Adobe does it.
>>> > Python does it.
>>> > MSSQL does it.
>>> > 
>>> >
>>> > No need for crazy launcher args and extreme actions such as doing
>>> > something like RVM does
>>> >
>>> > All that needs to be done, is find all instances of wxStandardPaths
>>> > being used for config location.
>>> > Replace it with a standard static function helper. In the helper, it
>>> > appends a version number to the location.
>>> >
>>> > Thats it. Done. No need to require users to understand command line to
>>> > use a program.
>>> >
>>> > It works for linux too.
>>> > /home/user/.kicad/
>>> > becomes
>>> > /home/user/.kicad/5.1/
>>>
>>> And on the Mac that would be
>>>
>>> /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad
>>>
>>> becomes
>>>
>>> /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad/5.1
>>>
>>> and /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad
>>>
>>> becomes
>>>
>>> /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad/5.1
>>>
>>> -a
>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-18 Thread Seth Hillbrand

It's a good idea but it's coming after we've already tagged v5.  Are we
thinking of a patch on the packaging?  I don't quite follow the proposal
for how this gets implemented.  For debian, we could place a patch in the
build package.  I assume that there is something similar for rpms but I'd
be curious to know how this would be implemented for Mac/Windows.

-Seth

Am Mi., 18. Juli 2018 um 21:08 Uhr schrieb Adam Wolf <
adamw...@feelslikeburning.com>:

> On Mac, we have the advantage of users not setting environment variables.
> This makes me think this *could* potentially be feasible for 5.0, for MacOS.
>
> However, I do not know if we would want this feature on one platform and
> not the others. Thoughts?
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 12:40 PM Andy Peters  wrote:
>
>> On Jul 16, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Mark Roszko  wrote:
>> >
>> > Yeathats what I proposed too.
>> >
>> > Every program on Windows that needs side-by-side installs just
>> > versions both the config and install locations. Thats it.
>> >
>> > EAGLE does it.
>> > Visual Studio does.
>> > Altium does it.
>> > CLion does it.
>> > All of Jetbrains other product do it.
>> > Microsoft Word does it
>> > Adobe does it.
>> > Python does it.
>> > MSSQL does it.
>> > 
>> >
>> > No need for crazy launcher args and extreme actions such as doing
>> > something like RVM does
>> >
>> > All that needs to be done, is find all instances of wxStandardPaths
>> > being used for config location.
>> > Replace it with a standard static function helper. In the helper, it
>> > appends a version number to the location.
>> >
>> > Thats it. Done. No need to require users to understand command line to
>> > use a program.
>> >
>> > It works for linux too.
>> > /home/user/.kicad/
>> > becomes
>> > /home/user/.kicad/5.1/
>>
>> And on the Mac that would be
>>
>> /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad
>>
>> becomes
>>
>> /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad/5.1
>>
>> and /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad
>>
>> becomes
>>
>> /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad/5.1
>>
>> -a
>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-18 Thread Adam Wolf

On Mac, we have the advantage of users not setting environment variables.
This makes me think this *could* potentially be feasible for 5.0, for MacOS.

However, I do not know if we would want this feature on one platform and
not the others. Thoughts?

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 12:40 PM Andy Peters  wrote:

> On Jul 16, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Mark Roszko  wrote:
> >
> > Yeathats what I proposed too.
> >
> > Every program on Windows that needs side-by-side installs just
> > versions both the config and install locations. Thats it.
> >
> > EAGLE does it.
> > Visual Studio does.
> > Altium does it.
> > CLion does it.
> > All of Jetbrains other product do it.
> > Microsoft Word does it
> > Adobe does it.
> > Python does it.
> > MSSQL does it.
> > 
> >
> > No need for crazy launcher args and extreme actions such as doing
> > something like RVM does
> >
> > All that needs to be done, is find all instances of wxStandardPaths
> > being used for config location.
> > Replace it with a standard static function helper. In the helper, it
> > appends a version number to the location.
> >
> > Thats it. Done. No need to require users to understand command line to
> > use a program.
> >
> > It works for linux too.
> > /home/user/.kicad/
> > becomes
> > /home/user/.kicad/5.1/
>
> And on the Mac that would be
>
> /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad
>
> becomes
>
> /Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad/5.1
>
> and /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad
>
> becomes
>
> /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad/5.1
>
> -a
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-16 Thread Andy Peters

On Jul 16, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Mark Roszko  wrote:
> 
> Yeathats what I proposed too.
> 
> Every program on Windows that needs side-by-side installs just
> versions both the config and install locations. Thats it.
> 
> EAGLE does it.
> Visual Studio does.
> Altium does it.
> CLion does it.
> All of Jetbrains other product do it.
> Microsoft Word does it
> Adobe does it.
> Python does it.
> MSSQL does it.
> 
> 
> No need for crazy launcher args and extreme actions such as doing
> something like RVM does
> 
> All that needs to be done, is find all instances of wxStandardPaths
> being used for config location.
> Replace it with a standard static function helper. In the helper, it
> appends a version number to the location.
> 
> Thats it. Done. No need to require users to understand command line to
> use a program.
> 
> It works for linux too.
> /home/user/.kicad/
> becomes
> /home/user/.kicad/5.1/

And on the Mac that would be

/Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad 

becomes

/Users/andy/Library/Application Support/kicad/5.1

and /Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad 

becomes 

/Users/andy/Library/Preferences/kicad/5.1

-a

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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-16 Thread Mark Roszko

Yeathats what I proposed too.

Every program on Windows that needs side-by-side installs just
versions both the config and install locations. Thats it.

EAGLE does it.
Visual Studio does.
Altium does it.
CLion does it.
All of Jetbrains other product do it.
Microsoft Word does it
Adobe does it.
Python does it.
MSSQL does it.


No need for crazy launcher args and extreme actions such as doing
something like RVM does

All that needs to be done, is find all instances of wxStandardPaths
being used for config location.
Replace it with a standard static function helper. In the helper, it
appends a version number to the location.

Thats it. Done. No need to require users to understand command line to
use a program.

It works for linux too.
/home/user/.kicad/
becomes
/home/user/.kicad/5.1/


On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 10:37 AM Adam Wolf
 wrote:
>
> Yup, that's what I proposed.
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 9:16 AM Nick Østergaard  wrote:
> >
> > Why does this need to be so complicated?
> >
> > I think we could just rename the kicad config folder created and
> > searched by kicad from "kicad" to "kicad5" and be happy in the 5.x
> > branches.
> > Den man. 16. jul. 2018 kl. 15.11 skrev Bob Gustafson :
> > >
> > > There is a tool which allows developers to quickly switch between 
> > > different versions of Ruby (and their associated gemsets).
> > >
> > > Perhaps it could be used for KiCad? Or perhaps just some of RVM's ideas 
> > > could be adapted for KiCad
> > >
> > > https://rvm.io/
> > >
> > >
> > > On 07/15/2018 09:52 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> > >
> > > I guess the fact that environment variables are tricky to set for 
> > > graphical applications for the Mac may be a blessing here :)
> > >
> > > Should we try to package a macOS version that installs to 
> > > /Applications/KiCad5 and /Library/Application Support/kicad?
> > >
> > > Adam
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 2:41 AM Eeli Kaikkonen  
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> There are some people in the user forum who have spent time with these 
> > >> v4->v5 problems, including me and Rene. The consensus about the 
> > >> environment variables seems to be what Rene already said, that they 
> > >> should not (without explicit user intervention) be set for the system, 
> > >> but from KiCad itself. Nick confirmed that the current v5 installer 
> > >> won't set them by default. They are still a problem if they have been 
> > >> set by v4 installer.
> > >>
> > >> su 15. heinäk. 2018 klo 5.04 Strontium (strnty...@gmail.com) kirjoitti:
> > >>>
> > >>> I honestly think each major revision of KiCad should be considered a NEW
> > >>> program, installs to a new place has its configuration and libraries all
> > >>> in a new location.  Only Incremental updates 5.0 -> 5.1 should be
> > >>> considered upgrades.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I agree. It's probable that many users will want to continue with v4 for 
> > >> old projects but v5 for new, and in the future the same thing will be 
> > >> true for v5 vs. v6, because they break the file/project compatibility. 
> > >> But where the compatibility is kept it's more likely to be considered as 
> > >> just an upgrade.
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Kicad configuration isn't complex or onerous so if a user wants to bring
> > >>> a Kicad4 config into Kicad5 or 6 or whatever, then they do that
> > >>> themselves, otherwise after install Kicad5 is a fresh blank sheet with
> > >>> no relationship to anything that happened on the users computer in
> > >>> Kicad4.  I am not familiar with the issues on Windows, but I would have
> > >>> thought now this is mostly a packaging issue only??
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I tried modifying the Windows installer, I only needed to replace some 
> > >> of "KiCad" strings with "KiCad5" and it can install v5 alongside v4 
> > >> independently. The only problem is the configuration and the environment 
> > >> variables set by v4. They can be handled with a startup script. See 
> > >> https://forum.kicad.info/t/does-v5-have-to-overwrite-on-install/11282 
> > >> for some details.
> > >>
> > >>> I also agree if it can't work this way now on Windows, then its all a
> > >>> bit late for V5, but maybe V6 can consider itself a new program distinct
> > >>> from V5.  This would also help with testing, because users could use V5
> > >>> for daily work, but also easily install a V6 daily side by side.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> All this could be done with the Windows installer, provided that a 
> > >> startup script would be offered.
> > >>
> > >> To make this all, at least the startup script, as simple as possible I 
> > >> would suggest one (or three) small changes to KiCad (for 5.1, or even 
> > >> 5.0.1?). Add command line options --config=/path/to/config and 
> > >> --ignore-env-vars. The former is obvious and would override 
> > >> KICAD_CONFIG_HOME system environment variable. The latter would make 
> > >> KiCad ignore all system environment variables and use the current 
> > >> internal logic and the path settings UI instead. That

Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-16 Thread Wayne Stambaugh

This also doesn't help user with environment variables set in their
config files.  Installing kicad in a different folder will not resolve
this issue.  We have the rather posix like method of setting
XDG_USER_CONFIG variable to point to a different user config path but
that isn't really windows friendly.  That would require some coding to
match the install version with version specific config folders on windows.

On 7/16/2018 10:22 AM, Rene Pöschl wrote:
> This only helps users who never had system environment variables set.
> They overwrite the settings coming from the config folders. (So all
> default windows installation are not helped with this.)
> 
> On 16/07/18 16:16, Nick Østergaard wrote:
>> Why does this need to be so complicated?
>>
>> I think we could just rename the kicad config folder created and
>> searched by kicad from "kicad" to "kicad5" and be happy in the 5.x
>> branches.
>> Den man. 16. jul. 2018 kl. 15.11 skrev Bob Gustafson :
>>> There is a tool which allows developers to quickly switch between
>>> different versions of Ruby (and their associated gemsets).
>>>
>>> Perhaps it could be used for KiCad? Or perhaps just some of RVM's
>>> ideas could be adapted for KiCad
>>>
>>> https://rvm.io/
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07/15/2018 09:52 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess the fact that environment variables are tricky to set for
>>> graphical applications for the Mac may be a blessing here :)
>>>
>>> Should we try to package a macOS version that installs to
>>> /Applications/KiCad5 and /Library/Application Support/kicad?
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 2:41 AM Eeli Kaikkonen
>>>  wrote:
 There are some people in the user forum who have spent time with
 these v4->v5 problems, including me and Rene. The consensus about
 the environment variables seems to be what Rene already said, that
 they should not (without explicit user intervention) be set for the
 system, but from KiCad itself. Nick confirmed that the current v5
 installer won't set them by default. They are still a problem if
 they have been set by v4 installer.

 su 15. heinäk. 2018 klo 5.04 Strontium (strnty...@gmail.com) kirjoitti:
> I honestly think each major revision of KiCad should be considered
> a NEW
> program, installs to a new place has its configuration and
> libraries all
> in a new location.  Only Incremental updates 5.0 -> 5.1 should be
> considered upgrades.
>
 I agree. It's probable that many users will want to continue with v4
 for old projects but v5 for new, and in the future the same thing
 will be true for v5 vs. v6, because they break the file/project
 compatibility. But where the compatibility is kept it's more likely
 to be considered as just an upgrade.

> Kicad configuration isn't complex or onerous so if a user wants to
> bring
> a Kicad4 config into Kicad5 or 6 or whatever, then they do that
> themselves, otherwise after install Kicad5 is a fresh blank sheet with
> no relationship to anything that happened on the users computer in
> Kicad4.  I am not familiar with the issues on Windows, but I would
> have
> thought now this is mostly a packaging issue only??
>
 I tried modifying the Windows installer, I only needed to replace
 some of "KiCad" strings with "KiCad5" and it can install v5
 alongside v4 independently. The only problem is the configuration
 and the environment variables set by v4. They can be handled with a
 startup script. See
 https://forum.kicad.info/t/does-v5-have-to-overwrite-on-install/11282 for
 some details.

> I also agree if it can't work this way now on Windows, then its all a
> bit late for V5, but maybe V6 can consider itself a new program
> distinct
> from V5.  This would also help with testing, because users could
> use V5
> for daily work, but also easily install a V6 daily side by side.

 All this could be done with the Windows installer, provided that a
 startup script would be offered.

 To make this all, at least the startup script, as simple as possible
 I would suggest one (or three) small changes to KiCad (for 5.1, or
 even 5.0.1?). Add command line options --config=/path/to/config and
 --ignore-env-vars. The former is obvious and would override
 KICAD_CONFIG_HOME system environment variable. The latter would make
 KiCad ignore all system environment variables and use the current
 internal logic and the path settings UI instead. That way the old
 variables could be left for v4 and the newer versions would be
 completely independent if the command line switches were used. The
 command line switch for the config path would be mostly for
 convenience. In Windows starting a program with custom environment
 variables is tedious and error prone to write (see the above
 mentioned thread). Command line switches are much easier.

Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-16 Thread Rene Pöschl

This only helps users who never had system environment variables set.
They overwrite the settings coming from the config folders. (So all
default windows installation are not helped with this.)

On 16/07/18 16:16, Nick Østergaard wrote:

Why does this need to be so complicated?

I think we could just rename the kicad config folder created and
searched by kicad from "kicad" to "kicad5" and be happy in the 5.x
branches.
Den man. 16. jul. 2018 kl. 15.11 skrev Bob Gustafson :

There is a tool which allows developers to quickly switch between different
versions of Ruby (and their associated gemsets).

Perhaps it could be used for KiCad? Or perhaps just some of RVM's ideas could
be adapted for KiCad

https://rvm.io/

On 07/15/2018 09:52 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:

I guess the fact that environment variables are tricky to set for graphical
applications for the Mac may be a blessing here :)

Should we try to package a macOS version that installs to /Applications/KiCad5
and /Library/Application Support/kicad?

Adam

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 2:41 AM Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:

There are some people in the user forum who have spent time with these v4->v5
problems, including me and Rene. The consensus about the environment variables
seems to be what Rene already said, that they should not (without explicit user
intervention) be set for the system, but from KiCad itself. Nick confirmed that
the current v5 installer won't set them by default. They are still a problem if
they have been set by v4 installer.

su 15. heinäk. 2018 klo 5.04 Strontium (strnty...@gmail.com) kirjoitti:

I honestly think each major revision of KiCad should be considered a NEW
program, installs to a new place has its configuration and libraries all
in a new location. Only Incremental updates 5.0 -> 5.1 should be
considered upgrades.

I agree. It's probable that many users will want to continue with v4 for old
projects but v5 for new, and in the future the same thing will be true for v5
vs. v6, because they break the file/project compatibility. But where the
compatibility is kept it's more likely to be considered as just an upgrade.

Kicad configuration isn't complex or onerous so if a user wants to bring
a Kicad4 config into Kicad5 or 6 or whatever, then they do that
themselves, otherwise after install Kicad5 is a fresh blank sheet with
no relationship to anything that happened on the users computer in
Kicad4. I am not familiar with the issues on Windows, but I would have
thought now this is mostly a packaging issue only??

I tried modifying the Windows installer, I only needed to replace some of "KiCad" strings
with "KiCad5" and it can install v5 alongside v4 independently. The only problem is the
configuration and the environment variables set by v4. They can be handled with a startup script.
See https://forum.kicad.info/t/does-v5-have-to-overwrite-on-install/11282 for some details.

I also agree if it can't work this way now on Windows, then its all a
bit late for V5, but maybe V6 can consider itself a new program distinct
from V5. This would also help with testing, because users could use V5
for daily work, but also easily install a V6 daily side by side.

All this could be done with the Windows installer, provided that a startup
script would be offered.

To make this all, at least the startup script, as simple as possible I would
suggest one (or three) small changes to KiCad (for 5.1, or even 5.0.1?). Add
command line options --config=/path/to/config and --ignore-env-vars. The former
is obvious and would override KICAD_CONFIG_HOME system environment variable.
The latter would make KiCad ignore all system environment variables and use the
current internal logic and the path settings UI instead. That way the old
variables could be left for v4 and the newer versions would be completely
independent if the command line switches were used. The command line switch for
the config path would be mostly for convenience. In Windows starting a program
with custom environment variables is tedious and error prone to write (see the
above mentioned thread). Command line switches are much easier.

It could also be possible to make --ignore-env-vars=true by default. Sharing
the environment variables would be a special case if the user wants that.

The general problem with using system environment variables is that they are
good for situations when there's only one version of a program on the system,
and/or several processes share the same variable values. Neither of them is
true for parallel installations of KiCad.

Eeli Kaikkonen
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to :

Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-16 Thread Nick Østergaard

Why does this need to be so complicated?

I think we could just rename the kicad config folder created and
searched by kicad from "kicad" to "kicad5" and be happy in the 5.x
branches.
Den man. 16. jul. 2018 kl. 15.11 skrev Bob Gustafson :
>
> There is a tool which allows developers to quickly switch between different 
> versions of Ruby (and their associated gemsets).
>
> Perhaps it could be used for KiCad? Or perhaps just some of RVM's ideas could 
> be adapted for KiCad
>
> https://rvm.io/
>
>
> On 07/15/2018 09:52 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
>
> I guess the fact that environment variables are tricky to set for graphical 
> applications for the Mac may be a blessing here :)
>
> Should we try to package a macOS version that installs to 
> /Applications/KiCad5 and /Library/Application Support/kicad?
>
> Adam
>
> On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 2:41 AM Eeli Kaikkonen  wrote:
>>
>> There are some people in the user forum who have spent time with these 
>> v4->v5 problems, including me and Rene. The consensus about the environment 
>> variables seems to be what Rene already said, that they should not (without 
>> explicit user intervention) be set for the system, but from KiCad itself. 
>> Nick confirmed that the current v5 installer won't set them by default. They 
>> are still a problem if they have been set by v4 installer.
>>
>> su 15. heinäk. 2018 klo 5.04 Strontium (strnty...@gmail.com) kirjoitti:
>>>
>>> I honestly think each major revision of KiCad should be considered a NEW
>>> program, installs to a new place has its configuration and libraries all
>>> in a new location.  Only Incremental updates 5.0 -> 5.1 should be
>>> considered upgrades.
>>>
>>
>> I agree. It's probable that many users will want to continue with v4 for old 
>> projects but v5 for new, and in the future the same thing will be true for 
>> v5 vs. v6, because they break the file/project compatibility. But where the 
>> compatibility is kept it's more likely to be considered as just an upgrade.
>>
>>>
>>> Kicad configuration isn't complex or onerous so if a user wants to bring
>>> a Kicad4 config into Kicad5 or 6 or whatever, then they do that
>>> themselves, otherwise after install Kicad5 is a fresh blank sheet with
>>> no relationship to anything that happened on the users computer in
>>> Kicad4.  I am not familiar with the issues on Windows, but I would have
>>> thought now this is mostly a packaging issue only??
>>>
>>
>> I tried modifying the Windows installer, I only needed to replace some of 
>> "KiCad" strings with "KiCad5" and it can install v5 alongside v4 
>> independently. The only problem is the configuration and the environment 
>> variables set by v4. They can be handled with a startup script. See 
>> https://forum.kicad.info/t/does-v5-have-to-overwrite-on-install/11282 for 
>> some details.
>>
>>> I also agree if it can't work this way now on Windows, then its all a
>>> bit late for V5, but maybe V6 can consider itself a new program distinct
>>> from V5.  This would also help with testing, because users could use V5
>>> for daily work, but also easily install a V6 daily side by side.
>>
>>
>> All this could be done with the Windows installer, provided that a startup 
>> script would be offered.
>>
>> To make this all, at least the startup script, as simple as possible I would 
>> suggest one (or three) small changes to KiCad (for 5.1, or even 5.0.1?). Add 
>> command line options --config=/path/to/config and --ignore-env-vars. The 
>> former is obvious and would override KICAD_CONFIG_HOME system environment 
>> variable. The latter would make KiCad ignore all system environment 
>> variables and use the current internal logic and the path settings UI 
>> instead. That way the old variables could be left for v4 and the newer 
>> versions would be completely independent if the command line switches were 
>> used. The command line switch for the config path would be mostly for 
>> convenience. In Windows starting a program with custom environment variables 
>> is tedious and error prone to write (see the above mentioned thread). 
>> Command line switches are much easier.
>>
>> It could also be possible to make --ignore-env-vars=true by default. Sharing 
>> the environment variables would be a special case if the user wants that.
>>
>> The general problem with using system environment variables is that they are 
>> good for situations when there's only one version of a program on the 
>> system, and/or several processes share the same variable values. Neither of 
>> them is true for parallel installations of KiCad.
>>
>> Eeli Kaikkonen
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to :

Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-16 Thread Bob Gustafson

There is a tool which allows developers to quickly switch between 
different versions of Ruby (and their associated gemsets).


Perhaps it could be used for KiCad? Or perhaps just some of RVM's ideas 
could be adapted for KiCad


https://rvm.io/


On 07/15/2018 09:52 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
I guess the fact that environment variables are tricky to set for 
graphical applications for the Mac may be a blessing here :)


Should we try to package a macOS version that installs to 
/Applications/KiCad5 and /Library/Application Support/kicad?


Adam

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 2:41 AM Eeli Kaikkonen > wrote:


There are some people in the user forum who have spent time with
these v4->v5 problems, including me and Rene. The consensus about
the environment variables seems to be what Rene already said, that
they should not (without explicit user intervention) be set for
the system, but from KiCad itself. Nick confirmed that the current
v5 installer won't set them by default. They are still a problem
if they have been set by v4 installer.

su 15. heinäk. 2018 klo 5.04 Strontium (strnty...@gmail.com
) kirjoitti:

I honestly think each major revision of KiCad should be
considered a NEW
program, installs to a new place has its configuration and
libraries all
in a new location.  Only Incremental updates 5.0 -> 5.1 should be
considered upgrades.


I agree. It's probable that many users will want to continue with
v4 for old projects but v5 for new, and in the future the same
thing will be true for v5 vs. v6, because they break the
file/project compatibility. But where the compatibility is kept
it's more likely to be considered as just an upgrade.

Kicad configuration isn't complex or onerous so if a user
wants to bring
a Kicad4 config into Kicad5 or 6 or whatever, then they do that
themselves, otherwise after install Kicad5 is a fresh blank
sheet with
no relationship to anything that happened on the users
computer in
Kicad4.  I am not familiar with the issues on Windows, but I
would have
thought now this is mostly a packaging issue only??


I tried modifying the Windows installer, I only needed to replace
some of "KiCad" strings with "KiCad5" and it can install v5
alongside v4 independently. The only problem is the configuration
and the environment variables set by v4. They can be handled with
a startup script. See
https://forum.kicad.info/t/does-v5-have-to-overwrite-on-install/11282
for some details.

I also agree if it can't work this way now on Windows, then
its all a
bit late for V5, but maybe V6 can consider itself a new
program distinct
from V5.  This would also help with testing, because users
could use V5
for daily work, but also easily install a V6 daily side by side.


All this could be done with the Windows installer, provided that a
startup script would be offered.

To make this all, at least the startup script, as simple as
possible I would suggest one (or three) small changes to KiCad
(for 5.1, or even 5.0.1?). Add command line options
--config=/path/to/config and --ignore-env-vars. The former is
obvious and would override KICAD_CONFIG_HOME system environment
variable. The latter would make KiCad ignore all system
environment variables and use the current internal logic and the
path settings UI instead. That way the old variables could be left
for v4 and the newer versions would be completely independent if
the command line switches were used. The command line switch for
the config path would be mostly for convenience. In Windows
starting a program with custom environment variables is tedious
and error prone to write (see the above mentioned thread). Command
line switches are much easier.

It could also be possible to make --ignore-env-vars=true by
default. Sharing the environment variables would be a special case
if the user wants that.

The general problem with using system environment variables is
that they are good for situations when there's only one version of
a program on the system, and/or several processes share the same
variable values. Neither of them is true for parallel
installations of KiCad.

Eeli Kaikkonen
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers

Post to     : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net

Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers

More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp



___
Mailing

Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-16 Thread Adam Wolf

Hi Wayne,

I'll see what I can do. It's possible this is a really quick change,
to change the macos basename from kicad to kicad5, and that would even
have it read different config files, I think!

There are only 2 remaining macOS changes to make this week, and
they're both documentation changes in a README.  I'll handle all other
issues first, and then I'll take a stab at it, and see if it works
out--unless someone else has some bandwidth and then please say
something and we can do some planning together.

Adam
On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 8:01 AM Wayne Stambaugh  wrote:
>
> As long as we are not pushing the b5 release schedule back I'm fine with
> this.
>
> On 7/15/2018 10:52 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> > I guess the fact that environment variables are tricky to set for
> > graphical applications for the Mac may be a blessing here :)
> >
> > Should we try to package a macOS version that installs to
> > /Applications/KiCad5 and /Library/Application Support/kicad?
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 2:41 AM Eeli Kaikkonen  > > wrote:
> >
> > There are some people in the user forum who have spent time with
> > these v4->v5 problems, including me and Rene. The consensus about
> > the environment variables seems to be what Rene already said, that
> > they should not (without explicit user intervention) be set for the
> > system, but from KiCad itself. Nick confirmed that the current v5
> > installer won't set them by default. They are still a problem if
> > they have been set by v4 installer.
> >
> > su 15. heinäk. 2018 klo 5.04 Strontium (strnty...@gmail.com
> > ) kirjoitti:
> >
> > I honestly think each major revision of KiCad should be
> > considered a NEW
> > program, installs to a new place has its configuration and
> > libraries all
> > in a new location.  Only Incremental updates 5.0 -> 5.1 should be
> > considered upgrades.
> >
> >
> > I agree. It's probable that many users will want to continue with v4
> > for old projects but v5 for new, and in the future the same thing
> > will be true for v5 vs. v6, because they break the file/project
> > compatibility. But where the compatibility is kept it's more likely
> > to be considered as just an upgrade.
> >
> >
> > Kicad configuration isn't complex or onerous so if a user wants
> > to bring
> > a Kicad4 config into Kicad5 or 6 or whatever, then they do that
> > themselves, otherwise after install Kicad5 is a fresh blank
> > sheet with
> > no relationship to anything that happened on the users computer in
> > Kicad4.  I am not familiar with the issues on Windows, but I
> > would have
> > thought now this is mostly a packaging issue only??
> >
> >
> > I tried modifying the Windows installer, I only needed to replace
> > some of "KiCad" strings with "KiCad5" and it can install v5
> > alongside v4 independently. The only problem is the configuration
> > and the environment variables set by v4. They can be handled with a
> > startup script. See
> > https://forum.kicad.info/t/does-v5-have-to-overwrite-on-install/11282 
> > for
> > some details.
> >
> > I also agree if it can't work this way now on Windows, then its
> > all a
> > bit late for V5, but maybe V6 can consider itself a new program
> > distinct
> > from V5.  This would also help with testing, because users could
> > use V5
> > for daily work, but also easily install a V6 daily side by side.
> >
> >
> > All this could be done with the Windows installer, provided that a
> > startup script would be offered.
> >
> > To make this all, at least the startup script, as simple as possible
> > I would suggest one (or three) small changes to KiCad (for 5.1, or
> > even 5.0.1?). Add command line options --config=/path/to/config and
> > --ignore-env-vars. The former is obvious and would override
> > KICAD_CONFIG_HOME system environment variable. The latter would make
> > KiCad ignore all system environment variables and use the current
> > internal logic and the path settings UI instead. That way the old
> > variables could be left for v4 and the newer versions would be
> > completely independent if the command line switches were used. The
> > command line switch for the config path would be mostly for
> > convenience. In Windows starting a program with custom environment
> > variables is tedious and error prone to write (see the above
> > mentioned thread). Command line switches are much easier.
> >
> > It could also be possible to make --ignore-env-vars=true by default.
> > Sharing the environment variables would be a special case if the
> > user wants that.
> >
> > The general problem with using system environment variables

Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-16 Thread Wayne Stambaugh

As long as we are not pushing the b5 release schedule back I'm fine with
this.

On 7/15/2018 10:52 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> I guess the fact that environment variables are tricky to set for
> graphical applications for the Mac may be a blessing here :)
> 
> Should we try to package a macOS version that installs to
> /Applications/KiCad5 and /Library/Application Support/kicad?
> 
> Adam
> 
> On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 2:41 AM Eeli Kaikkonen  > wrote:
> 
> There are some people in the user forum who have spent time with
> these v4->v5 problems, including me and Rene. The consensus about
> the environment variables seems to be what Rene already said, that
> they should not (without explicit user intervention) be set for the
> system, but from KiCad itself. Nick confirmed that the current v5
> installer won't set them by default. They are still a problem if
> they have been set by v4 installer.
> 
> su 15. heinäk. 2018 klo 5.04 Strontium (strnty...@gmail.com
> ) kirjoitti:
> 
> I honestly think each major revision of KiCad should be
> considered a NEW
> program, installs to a new place has its configuration and
> libraries all
> in a new location.  Only Incremental updates 5.0 -> 5.1 should be
> considered upgrades.
> 
> 
> I agree. It's probable that many users will want to continue with v4
> for old projects but v5 for new, and in the future the same thing
> will be true for v5 vs. v6, because they break the file/project
> compatibility. But where the compatibility is kept it's more likely
> to be considered as just an upgrade.
>  
> 
> Kicad configuration isn't complex or onerous so if a user wants
> to bring
> a Kicad4 config into Kicad5 or 6 or whatever, then they do that
> themselves, otherwise after install Kicad5 is a fresh blank
> sheet with
> no relationship to anything that happened on the users computer in
> Kicad4.  I am not familiar with the issues on Windows, but I
> would have
> thought now this is mostly a packaging issue only??
> 
> 
> I tried modifying the Windows installer, I only needed to replace
> some of "KiCad" strings with "KiCad5" and it can install v5
> alongside v4 independently. The only problem is the configuration
> and the environment variables set by v4. They can be handled with a
> startup script. See
> https://forum.kicad.info/t/does-v5-have-to-overwrite-on-install/11282 for
> some details.
> 
> I also agree if it can't work this way now on Windows, then its
> all a
> bit late for V5, but maybe V6 can consider itself a new program
> distinct
> from V5.  This would also help with testing, because users could
> use V5
> for daily work, but also easily install a V6 daily side by side.
> 
> 
> All this could be done with the Windows installer, provided that a
> startup script would be offered.
> 
> To make this all, at least the startup script, as simple as possible
> I would suggest one (or three) small changes to KiCad (for 5.1, or
> even 5.0.1?). Add command line options --config=/path/to/config and
> --ignore-env-vars. The former is obvious and would override
> KICAD_CONFIG_HOME system environment variable. The latter would make
> KiCad ignore all system environment variables and use the current
> internal logic and the path settings UI instead. That way the old
> variables could be left for v4 and the newer versions would be
> completely independent if the command line switches were used. The
> command line switch for the config path would be mostly for
> convenience. In Windows starting a program with custom environment
> variables is tedious and error prone to write (see the above
> mentioned thread). Command line switches are much easier.
> 
> It could also be possible to make --ignore-env-vars=true by default.
> Sharing the environment variables would be a special case if the
> user wants that.
> 
> The general problem with using system environment variables is that
> they are good for situations when there's only one version of a
> program on the system, and/or several processes share the same
> variable values. Neither of them is true for parallel installations
> of KiCad.
> 
> Eeli Kaikkonen
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> 
> Post to     : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> 
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> 
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-15 Thread Adam Wolf

I guess the fact that environment variables are tricky to set for graphical
applications for the Mac may be a blessing here :)

Should we try to package a macOS version that installs to
/Applications/KiCad5 and /Library/Application Support/kicad?

Adam

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 2:41 AM Eeli Kaikkonen 
wrote:

> There are some people in the user forum who have spent time with these
> v4->v5 problems, including me and Rene. The consensus about the environment
> variables seems to be what Rene already said, that they should not (without
> explicit user intervention) be set for the system, but from KiCad itself.
> Nick confirmed that the current v5 installer won't set them by default.
> They are still a problem if they have been set by v4 installer.
>
> su 15. heinäk. 2018 klo 5.04 Strontium (strnty...@gmail.com) kirjoitti:
>
>> I honestly think each major revision of KiCad should be considered a NEW
>> program, installs to a new place has its configuration and libraries all
>> in a new location.  Only Incremental updates 5.0 -> 5.1 should be
>> considered upgrades.
>>
>>
> I agree. It's probable that many users will want to continue with v4 for
> old projects but v5 for new, and in the future the same thing will be true
> for v5 vs. v6, because they break the file/project compatibility. But where
> the compatibility is kept it's more likely to be considered as just an
> upgrade.
>
>
>> Kicad configuration isn't complex or onerous so if a user wants to bring
>> a Kicad4 config into Kicad5 or 6 or whatever, then they do that
>> themselves, otherwise after install Kicad5 is a fresh blank sheet with
>> no relationship to anything that happened on the users computer in
>> Kicad4.  I am not familiar with the issues on Windows, but I would have
>> thought now this is mostly a packaging issue only??
>>
>>
> I tried modifying the Windows installer, I only needed to replace some of
> "KiCad" strings with "KiCad5" and it can install v5 alongside v4
> independently. The only problem is the configuration and the environment
> variables set by v4. They can be handled with a startup script. See
> https://forum.kicad.info/t/does-v5-have-to-overwrite-on-install/11282 for
> some details.
>
> I also agree if it can't work this way now on Windows, then its all a
>> bit late for V5, but maybe V6 can consider itself a new program distinct
>> from V5.  This would also help with testing, because users could use V5
>> for daily work, but also easily install a V6 daily side by side.
>>
>
> All this could be done with the Windows installer, provided that a startup
> script would be offered.
>
> To make this all, at least the startup script, as simple as possible I
> would suggest one (or three) small changes to KiCad (for 5.1, or even
> 5.0.1?). Add command line options --config=/path/to/config and
> --ignore-env-vars. The former is obvious and would override
> KICAD_CONFIG_HOME system environment variable. The latter would make KiCad
> ignore all system environment variables and use the current internal logic
> and the path settings UI instead. That way the old variables could be left
> for v4 and the newer versions would be completely independent if the
> command line switches were used. The command line switch for the config
> path would be mostly for convenience. In Windows starting a program with
> custom environment variables is tedious and error prone to write (see the
> above mentioned thread). Command line switches are much easier.
>
> It could also be possible to make --ignore-env-vars=true by default.
> Sharing the environment variables would be a special case if the user wants
> that.
>
> The general problem with using system environment variables is that they
> are good for situations when there's only one version of a program on the
> system, and/or several processes share the same variable values. Neither of
> them is true for parallel installations of KiCad.
>
> Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-15 Thread Eeli Kaikkonen

There are some people in the user forum who have spent time with these
v4->v5 problems, including me and Rene. The consensus about the environment
variables seems to be what Rene already said, that they should not (without
explicit user intervention) be set for the system, but from KiCad itself.
Nick confirmed that the current v5 installer won't set them by default.
They are still a problem if they have been set by v4 installer.

su 15. heinäk. 2018 klo 5.04 Strontium (strnty...@gmail.com) kirjoitti:

> I honestly think each major revision of KiCad should be considered a NEW
> program, installs to a new place has its configuration and libraries all
> in a new location.  Only Incremental updates 5.0 -> 5.1 should be
> considered upgrades.
>
>
I agree. It's probable that many users will want to continue with v4 for
old projects but v5 for new, and in the future the same thing will be true
for v5 vs. v6, because they break the file/project compatibility. But where
the compatibility is kept it's more likely to be considered as just an
upgrade.


> Kicad configuration isn't complex or onerous so if a user wants to bring
> a Kicad4 config into Kicad5 or 6 or whatever, then they do that
> themselves, otherwise after install Kicad5 is a fresh blank sheet with
> no relationship to anything that happened on the users computer in
> Kicad4.  I am not familiar with the issues on Windows, but I would have
> thought now this is mostly a packaging issue only??
>
>
I tried modifying the Windows installer, I only needed to replace some of
"KiCad" strings with "KiCad5" and it can install v5 alongside v4
independently. The only problem is the configuration and the environment
variables set by v4. They can be handled with a startup script. See
https://forum.kicad.info/t/does-v5-have-to-overwrite-on-install/11282 for
some details.

I also agree if it can't work this way now on Windows, then its all a
> bit late for V5, but maybe V6 can consider itself a new program distinct
> from V5.  This would also help with testing, because users could use V5
> for daily work, but also easily install a V6 daily side by side.
>

All this could be done with the Windows installer, provided that a startup
script would be offered.

To make this all, at least the startup script, as simple as possible I
would suggest one (or three) small changes to KiCad (for 5.1, or even
5.0.1?). Add command line options --config=/path/to/config and
--ignore-env-vars. The former is obvious and would override
KICAD_CONFIG_HOME system environment variable. The latter would make KiCad
ignore all system environment variables and use the current internal logic
and the path settings UI instead. That way the old variables could be left
for v4 and the newer versions would be completely independent if the
command line switches were used. The command line switch for the config
path would be mostly for convenience. In Windows starting a program with
custom environment variables is tedious and error prone to write (see the
above mentioned thread). Command line switches are much easier.

It could also be possible to make --ignore-env-vars=true by default.
Sharing the environment variables would be a special case if the user wants
that.

The general problem with using system environment variables is that they
are good for situations when there's only one version of a program on the
system, and/or several processes share the same variable values. Neither of
them is true for parallel installations of KiCad.

Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-14 Thread Strontium

Sure the NEW program can load your OLD projects, but its not the same,
and may not work like you remember.

A simple workaround for any user on Windows who NEEDS V4 on windows is
to run V4 in a Linux VM, and just share the file system.

Steven

On 15/07/18 03:14, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

On 07/14/2018 10:55 AM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 7:49 PM, Mark Roszko mailto:mark.ros...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Wayne,

Guess going to suggest it should be a priority to version the config
into folders.

This is a user made chart on how to install kicad 5 which honestly is
silly it has to even exist lol

https://kicad-info.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/original/2X/d/d6143659e9237fc358588bed761ef3e557454cde.png

Now imagine that you are working on three or four different projects at
the same time and they each used a different version
of Kicad. That is what IC designers have to deal with. Chips take
several years to complete and the tools rev all the time.
You start a new chip six months into your last design and it may use
different revs of tools.

That is why IC designers use environment managers. All the revs are
installed in parallel and each project can pick the one that
it wants.

John Eaton

Pragmatic use of our limited developer resources is not silly. It's
just the reality of the project. Would I like for KiCad to be able to
provide support for this? Of course I would. I am fairly certain that
if I polled KiCad users if they would rather have all of the features
listed in v6 roadmap or be able to install multiple versions of KiCad
with only a few of those features that they would choose all of the
features. Even if we implemented the proposed changes for v5, who is
going to backport it v4? Given the divergence between the code bases,
good luck with that. We are already 6 months behind when I would have
liked to get v5 out the door so delaying v5 another couple of months is
really not a good option. I'm fine with implementing this for 5.1 if
someone is interested in coding it but that still doesn't solve the v4
issue which I'm guessing user's want to keep installed along side v5.

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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-14 Thread Wayne Stambaugh

On 07/14/2018 10:55 AM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 7:49 PM, Mark Roszko  > wrote:
> 
> Wayne,
> 
> Guess going to suggest it should be a priority to version the config
> into folders.
> 
> This is a user made chart on how to install kicad 5 which honestly is
> silly it has to even exist lol
> 
> https://kicad-info.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/original/2X/d/d6143659e9237fc358588bed761ef3e557454cde.png
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now imagine that you are working on three or four different projects at
> the same time and they each used a different version
> of Kicad. That is what IC designers have to deal with. Chips take
> several years to complete and the tools rev all the time.
> You start a new chip six months into your last design and it may use
> different revs of tools.
> 
> That is why IC designers use environment managers. All the revs are
> installed in parallel and each project can pick the one that
> it wants.
> 
> John Eaton
> 

Pragmatic use of our limited developer resources is not silly.  It's
just the reality of the project.  Would I like for KiCad to be able to
provide support for this?  Of course I would.  I am fairly certain that
if I polled KiCad users if they would rather have all of the features
listed in v6 roadmap or be able to install multiple versions of KiCad
with only a few of those features that they would choose all of the
features.  Even if we implemented the proposed changes for v5, who is
going to backport it v4?  Given the divergence between the code bases,
good luck with that.  We are already 6 months behind when I would have
liked to get v5 out the door so delaying v5 another couple of months is
really not a good option.  I'm fine with implementing this for 5.1 if
someone is interested in coding it but that still doesn't solve the v4
issue which I'm guessing user's want to keep installed along side v5.

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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-14 Thread Ouabache Designworks

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 7:49 PM, Mark Roszko  wrote:

> Wayne,
>
> Guess going to suggest it should be a priority to version the config
> into folders.
>
> This is a user made chart on how to install kicad 5 which honestly is
> silly it has to even exist lol
> https://kicad-info.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/original/2X/d/
> d6143659e9237fc358588bed761ef3e557454cde.png
>
>
>
> Now imagine that you are working on three or four different projects at
the same time and they each used a different version
of Kicad. That is what IC designers have to deal with. Chips take several
years to complete and the tools rev all the time.
You start a new chip six months into your last design and it may use
different revs of tools.

That is why IC designers use environment managers. All the revs are
installed in parallel and each project can pick the one that
it wants.

John Eaton
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-14 Thread Adam Wolf

Resending from the right email address--seems like something changed in my
email client *sigh*.

I don't want to contribute to any sort of panic.  I just spent so much time
redoing the macOS packaging that I didn't keep up with the rest of the V5
changes!

It's also tricky in macOS to have users keep their old resources and
install new ones at install time.  I actually included a paragraph of shell
commands in the readme for users to use to backup their old install if they
want.

I wonder if I should put those commands in a script in the installer so
users can just double click and get their existing setup backed up.  I
think probably I should!

On platforms where it is tricky to install two sets of resources at a time,
i.e. Windows and macOS, is it suggested that we use these environment
variables to look for the V5 resources in a non-default location?

Adam

On Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 5:35 AM Rene Pöschl  wrote:

> Another idea would be to provide a package with version 4 libs. That way
> users can work with the new v5 features but do not need to worry about
> updating libraries.
>
> On 14/07/18 09:29, Rene Pöschl wrote:
> > I get the feeling there is a bit more panic than need be.
> >
> > One of the reasons is that the v4 installer on windows did set operating
> > system variables (environment variables) which can create problems when
> > updating. So it might be a good idea for the v5 installer to clean up
> > this mess. (or at least warn the user) These things should really be set
> > in the kicad config files via the kicad main window -> preferences ->
> > configure path. (If the reports on the forum are correct then
> > environment variables overwrite the settings of that dialog. And as the
> > v4 installer set them by default this can be a source of major
> confusion.)
> >
> > Another reason for problems is that the sym lib table is created with a
> > new install and points to v5 libs but the fp-lib-table will still point
> > to the github v4 libraries. (The 3d models will be also from the v5
> > libs. Resulting in a mixed setup.) So an option to clean up the
> > fp-lib-table from within the installer or within kicad might help. Maybe
> > a "reset to factory settings" button within the library managers? (With
> > the warning that personal libs will need to be manually added after that
> > operation.)
> > Or at least some info for the user that if v4 was installed previously
> > the fp-lib-table needs updating. (Maybe a dialog with "do not show again
> > tickmak" that tells the user that if they had v4 previosly they need to
> > reset the fp-lib-table or they need to install the v4 lib and setup the
> > sym-lib-table accordingly.)
> >
> >
> >
> > On 14/07/18 06:13, Adam Wolf wrote:
> >> What options do we have?  Anything beyond "postpone V5" or "wait for
> >> the next release"?
> >>
> >> Could we rebrand the V5 release as a "technical preview" or something
> >> that is suitable for experts (and new users, actually) and make V5.1 V5?
> >>
> >> Adam
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 10:10 PM Mark Roszko  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>  Wayne,
> >>
> >>  Guess going to suggest it should be a priority to version the
> config
> >>  into folders.
> >>
> >>  This is a user made chart on how to install kicad 5 which honestly
> is
> >>  silly it has to even exist lol
> >>
> https://kicad-info.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/original/2X/d/d6143659e9237fc358588bed761ef3e557454cde.png
> >>
> >>
> >>  On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 1:56 PM Wayne Stambaugh
> >>  mailto:stambau...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>  >
> >>  > Mark,
> >>  >
> >>  > I agree with you in principal but this would require some major
> >>  changes
> >>  > to KiCad internally to handle the configuration data the
> >>  "windows" way.
> >>  > I really do not want to push the stable 5 release back any
> >>  further than
> >>  > it already has been.  I'm open to trying to accomplish this as
> >>  part of
> >>  > the 5.1 release if we can implement it soon enough to get some
> >>  testing
> >>  > on it.
> >>  >
> >>  > Cheers,
> >>  >
> >>  > Wayne
> >>  >
> >>  > On 7/8/2018 12:19 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> >>  > > Let's postpone this discussion maybe until the 10th when Wayne
> >>  is back
> >>  > > at it.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 10:33 PM Mark Roszko
> >>  mailto:mark.ros...@gmail.com>
> >>  > > >>
> >>  wrote:
> >>  > >
> >>  > > Hey guys,
> >>  > >
> >>  > > So with 5.0 approaching theres something of an annoying
> >>  problem on
> >>  > > windows (that many are complaining about). The install
> >>  location!
> >>  > > Currently, even though you can install kicad into separate
> >>  folders if
> >>  > > you wanted to, kicad still tries to write to the same
> >>  appdata

Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-14 Thread Rene Pöschl

Another idea would be to provide a package with version 4 libs. That way 
users can work with the new v5 features but do not need to worry about 
updating libraries.

On 14/07/18 09:29, Rene Pöschl wrote:

I get the feeling there is a bit more panic than need be.

One of the reasons is that the v4 installer on windows did set operating
system variables (environment variables) which can create problems when
updating. So it might be a good idea for the v5 installer to clean up
this mess. (or at least warn the user) These things should really be set
in the kicad config files via the kicad main window -> preferences ->
configure path. (If the reports on the forum are correct then
environment variables overwrite the settings of that dialog. And as the
v4 installer set them by default this can be a source of major confusion.)

Another reason for problems is that the sym lib table is created with a
new install and points to v5 libs but the fp-lib-table will still point
to the github v4 libraries. (The 3d models will be also from the v5
libs. Resulting in a mixed setup.) So an option to clean up the
fp-lib-table from within the installer or within kicad might help. Maybe
a "reset to factory settings" button within the library managers? (With
the warning that personal libs will need to be manually added after that
operation.)
Or at least some info for the user that if v4 was installed previously
the fp-lib-table needs updating. (Maybe a dialog with "do not show again
tickmak" that tells the user that if they had v4 previosly they need to
reset the fp-lib-table or they need to install the v4 lib and setup the
sym-lib-table accordingly.)

On 14/07/18 06:13, Adam Wolf wrote:

What options do we have?  Anything beyond "postpone V5" or "wait for
the next release"?

Could we rebrand the V5 release as a "technical preview" or something
that is suitable for experts (and new users, actually) and make V5.1 V5?

Adam

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 10:10 PM Mark Roszko mailto:mark.ros...@gmail.com>> wrote:

 Wayne,

 Guess going to suggest it should be a priority to version the config
 into folders.

 This is a user made chart on how to install kicad 5 which honestly is
 silly it has to even exist lol

https://kicad-info.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/original/2X/d/d6143659e9237fc358588bed761ef3e557454cde.png

 On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 1:56 PM Wayne Stambaugh
 mailto:stambau...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >
 > Mark,
 >
 > I agree with you in principal but this would require some major
 changes
 > to KiCad internally to handle the configuration data the
 "windows" way.
 > I really do not want to push the stable 5 release back any
 further than
 > it already has been.  I'm open to trying to accomplish this as
 part of
 > the 5.1 release if we can implement it soon enough to get some
 testing
 > on it.
 >
 > Cheers,
 >
 > Wayne
 >
 > On 7/8/2018 12:19 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
 > > Let's postpone this discussion maybe until the 10th when Wayne
 is back
 > > at it.
 > >
 > > On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 10:33 PM Mark Roszko
 mailto:mark.ros...@gmail.com>
 > > >>
 wrote:
 > >
 > >     Hey guys,
 > >
 > >     So with 5.0 approaching theres something of an annoying
 problem on
 > >     windows (that many are complaining about). The install
 location!
 > >     Currently, even though you can install kicad into separate
 folders if
 > >     you wanted to, kicad still tries to write to the same
 appdata folder!
 > >
 > >     Why would you want both the new and old? Because if you
 want to tweak
 > >     a old design, you don't want to risk opening it in newer
 versions and
 > >     having unforseen bugs. New designs sure, you really want
 to use the
 > >     latest and greatest, but the old is a risk not worth taking,
 > >     especially in the commercial field ;)
 > >
 > >     Also there is a settings conflicts between 4.0 and 5.0
 sharing appdata.
 > >
 > >     I've seen some kicad forum "workarounds" where they use
 launcher
 > >     scripts that set KICAD_CONFIG_HOME each time. While it
 works, its
 > >     completely against the windows way :3
 > >
 > >
 > >     What I propose, is we patch KiCad a little to:
 > >
 > >     1. Write to appdata in a versioned manner (just minor and
 maybe
 > >     minor version)
 > >     C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 4.0\
 > >     C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 5.0\
 > >     C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 6.0\
 > >
 > >     2. Potentially prompt the user on first-start to copy
 settings.
 > >     (Maybe? Might be too much work for the final 5.0)
 > >
 > >     Then we patch the installer to follow the convention of:
 > >

Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-14 Thread Rene Pöschl

I get the feeling there is a bit more panic than need be.

One of the reasons is that the v4 installer on windows did set operating 
system variables (environment variables) which can create problems when 
updating. So it might be a good idea for the v5 installer to clean up 
this mess. (or at least warn the user) These things should really be set 
in the kicad config files via the kicad main window -> preferences -> 
configure path. (If the reports on the forum are correct then 
environment variables overwrite the settings of that dialog. And as the 
v4 installer set them by default this can be a source of major confusion.)

Another reason for problems is that the sym lib table is created with a 
new install and points to v5 libs but the fp-lib-table will still point 
to the github v4 libraries. (The 3d models will be also from the v5 
libs. Resulting in a mixed setup.) So an option to clean up the 
fp-lib-table from within the installer or within kicad might help. Maybe 
a "reset to factory settings" button within the library managers? (With 
the warning that personal libs will need to be manually added after that 
operation.)
Or at least some info for the user that if v4 was installed previously 
the fp-lib-table needs updating. (Maybe a dialog with "do not show again 
tickmak" that tells the user that if they had v4 previosly they need to 
reset the fp-lib-table or they need to install the v4 lib and setup the 
sym-lib-table accordingly.)

On 14/07/18 06:13, Adam Wolf wrote:
What options do we have?  Anything beyond "postpone V5" or "wait for 
the next release"?

Could we rebrand the V5 release as a "technical preview" or something 
that is suitable for experts (and new users, actually) and make V5.1 V5?

Adam

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 10:10 PM Mark Roszko > wrote:

Wayne,

Guess going to suggest it should be a priority to version the config
into folders.

This is a user made chart on how to install kicad 5 which honestly is
silly it has to even exist lol

https://kicad-info.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/original/2X/d/d6143659e9237fc358588bed761ef3e557454cde.png

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 1:56 PM Wayne Stambaugh
mailto:stambau...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> I agree with you in principal but this would require some major
changes
> to KiCad internally to handle the configuration data the
"windows" way.
> I really do not want to push the stable 5 release back any
further than
> it already has been.  I'm open to trying to accomplish this as
part of
> the 5.1 release if we can implement it soon enough to get some
testing
> on it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wayne
>
> On 7/8/2018 12:19 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> > Let's postpone this discussion maybe until the 10th when Wayne
is back
> > at it.
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 10:33 PM Mark Roszko
mailto:mark.ros...@gmail.com>
> > >>
wrote:
> >
> >     Hey guys,
> >
> >     So with 5.0 approaching theres something of an annoying
problem on
> >     windows (that many are complaining about). The install
location!
> >     Currently, even though you can install kicad into separate
folders if
> >     you wanted to, kicad still tries to write to the same
appdata folder!
> >
> >     Why would you want both the new and old? Because if you
want to tweak
> >     a old design, you don't want to risk opening it in newer
versions and
> >     having unforseen bugs. New designs sure, you really want
to use the
> >     latest and greatest, but the old is a risk not worth taking,
> >     especially in the commercial field ;)
> >
> >     Also there is a settings conflicts between 4.0 and 5.0
sharing appdata.
> >
> >     I've seen some kicad forum "workarounds" where they use
launcher
> >     scripts that set KICAD_CONFIG_HOME each time. While it
works, its
> >     completely against the windows way :3
> >
> >
> >     What I propose, is we patch KiCad a little to:
> >
> >     1. Write to appdata in a versioned manner (just minor and
maybe
> >     minor version)
> >     C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 4.0\
> >     C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 5.0\
> >     C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 6.0\
> >
> >     2. Potentially prompt the user on first-start to copy
settings.
> >     (Maybe? Might be too much work for the final 5.0)
> >
> >     Then we patch the installer to follow the convention of:
> >     C:\Program Files\KiCad 4.0\
> >     C:\Program Files\KiCad 5.0\
> >     C:\Program Files\KiCad 6.0\
> >
> >     This would do what every other CAD and IDE does on Windows
> >     (versioned installs).
> >
> >     But what if people

Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-14 Thread mitjan696-ubu...@yahoo.co.uk

 As an author of the flowchart I have to clearly state that most of the 
complexity stems from the big change in symbol, footprint and 3D model 
libraries. And the change was for the better, so kudos to the library 
maintainers. 

And as with any change, the migration across it is going to be bumpy at best.
As for the KiCad installation, I'd leave the configuration folder issue. The 
workaround might be if the Win installer would set KICAD_CONFIG_HOME to 
%APPDATA%/kicad/V5 and copy current configuration if it exists (maybe even 
doing this silently?). This way you'd push the changes to the installer keeping 
Kicad source unaffected. But as I am not a developer my ideas might be stupid.

Anyhow it would be great if the installation would create separate shortcuts in 
start menu and on desktop for V5 and leave V4 shortcuts intact.


On Saturday, 14 July 2018, 04:50:17 CEST, Mark Roszko 
 wrote:  
 
 Wayne,

Guess going to suggest it should be a priority to version the config
into folders.

This is a user made chart on how to install kicad 5 which honestly is
silly it has to even exist lol
https://kicad-info.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/original/2X/d/d6143659e9237fc358588bed761ef3e557454cde.png


On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 1:56 PM Wayne Stambaugh  wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> I agree with you in principal but this would require some major changes
> to KiCad internally to handle the configuration data the "windows" way.
> I really do not want to push the stable 5 release back any further than
> it already has been.  I'm open to trying to accomplish this as part of
> the 5.1 release if we can implement it soon enough to get some testing
> on it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wayne
>
> On 7/8/2018 12:19 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> > Let's postpone this discussion maybe until the 10th when Wayne is back
> > at it.
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 10:33 PM Mark Roszko  > > wrote:
> >
> >    Hey guys,
> >
> >    So with 5.0 approaching theres something of an annoying problem on
> >    windows (that many are complaining about). The install location!
> >    Currently, even though you can install kicad into separate folders if
> >    you wanted to, kicad still tries to write to the same appdata folder!
> >
> >    Why would you want both the new and old? Because if you want to tweak
> >    a old design, you don't want to risk opening it in newer versions and
> >    having unforseen bugs. New designs sure, you really want to use the
> >    latest and greatest, but the old is a risk not worth taking,
> >    especially in the commercial field ;)
> >
> >    Also there is a settings conflicts between 4.0 and 5.0 sharing appdata.
> >
> >    I've seen some kicad forum "workarounds" where they use launcher
> >    scripts that set KICAD_CONFIG_HOME each time. While it works, its
> >    completely against the windows way :3
> >
> >
> >    What I propose, is we patch KiCad a little to:
> >
> >    1. Write to appdata in a versioned manner (just minor and maybe
> >    minor version)
> >    C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 4.0\
> >    C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 5.0\
> >    C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 6.0\
> >
> >    2. Potentially prompt the user on first-start to copy settings.
> >    (Maybe? Might be too much work for the final 5.0)
> >
> >    Then we patch the installer to follow the convention of:
> >    C:\Program Files\KiCad 4.0\
> >    C:\Program Files\KiCad 5.0\
> >    C:\Program Files\KiCad 6.0\
> >
> >    This would do what every other CAD and IDE does on Windows
> >    (versioned installs).
> >
> >    But what if people want to install in crazier ways ?!
> >    Well then that should beyond the scope of the "standard" installs and
> >    they are on their own. (Just like other tools)
> >
> >    ___
> >    Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >    Post to    : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> >    
> >    Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >    More help  : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to    : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help  : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to    : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help  : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp



-- 
Mark

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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-13 Thread Adam Wolf

What options do we have?  Anything beyond "postpone V5" or "wait for the
next release"?

Could we rebrand the V5 release as a "technical preview" or something that
is suitable for experts (and new users, actually) and make V5.1 V5?

Adam

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 10:10 PM Mark Roszko  wrote:

> Wayne,
>
> Guess going to suggest it should be a priority to version the config
> into folders.
>
> This is a user made chart on how to install kicad 5 which honestly is
> silly it has to even exist lol
>
> https://kicad-info.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/original/2X/d/d6143659e9237fc358588bed761ef3e557454cde.png
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 1:56 PM Wayne Stambaugh 
> wrote:
> >
> > Mark,
> >
> > I agree with you in principal but this would require some major changes
> > to KiCad internally to handle the configuration data the "windows" way.
> > I really do not want to push the stable 5 release back any further than
> > it already has been.  I'm open to trying to accomplish this as part of
> > the 5.1 release if we can implement it soon enough to get some testing
> > on it.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> > On 7/8/2018 12:19 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> > > Let's postpone this discussion maybe until the 10th when Wayne is back
> > > at it.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 10:33 PM Mark Roszko  > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey guys,
> > >
> > > So with 5.0 approaching theres something of an annoying problem on
> > > windows (that many are complaining about). The install location!
> > > Currently, even though you can install kicad into separate folders
> if
> > > you wanted to, kicad still tries to write to the same appdata
> folder!
> > >
> > > Why would you want both the new and old? Because if you want to
> tweak
> > > a old design, you don't want to risk opening it in newer versions
> and
> > > having unforseen bugs. New designs sure, you really want to use the
> > > latest and greatest, but the old is a risk not worth taking,
> > > especially in the commercial field ;)
> > >
> > > Also there is a settings conflicts between 4.0 and 5.0 sharing
> appdata.
> > >
> > > I've seen some kicad forum "workarounds" where they use launcher
> > > scripts that set KICAD_CONFIG_HOME each time. While it works, its
> > > completely against the windows way :3
> > >
> > >
> > > What I propose, is we patch KiCad a little to:
> > >
> > > 1. Write to appdata in a versioned manner (just minor and maybe
> > > minor version)
> > > C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 4.0\
> > > C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 5.0\
> > > C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 6.0\
> > >
> > > 2. Potentially prompt the user on first-start to copy settings.
> > > (Maybe? Might be too much work for the final 5.0)
> > >
> > > Then we patch the installer to follow the convention of:
> > > C:\Program Files\KiCad 4.0\
> > > C:\Program Files\KiCad 5.0\
> > > C:\Program Files\KiCad 6.0\
> > >
> > > This would do what every other CAD and IDE does on Windows
> > > (versioned installs).
> > >
> > > But what if people want to install in crazier ways ?!
> > > Well then that should beyond the scope of the "standard" installs
> and
> > > they are on their own. (Just like other tools)
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > > 
> > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
>
> --
> Mark
>
> ___
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> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-13 Thread Mark Roszko

Wayne,

Guess going to suggest it should be a priority to version the config
into folders.

This is a user made chart on how to install kicad 5 which honestly is
silly it has to even exist lol
https://kicad-info.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/original/2X/d/d6143659e9237fc358588bed761ef3e557454cde.png


On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 1:56 PM Wayne Stambaugh  wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> I agree with you in principal but this would require some major changes
> to KiCad internally to handle the configuration data the "windows" way.
> I really do not want to push the stable 5 release back any further than
> it already has been.  I'm open to trying to accomplish this as part of
> the 5.1 release if we can implement it soon enough to get some testing
> on it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wayne
>
> On 7/8/2018 12:19 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> > Let's postpone this discussion maybe until the 10th when Wayne is back
> > at it.
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 10:33 PM Mark Roszko  > > wrote:
> >
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > So with 5.0 approaching theres something of an annoying problem on
> > windows (that many are complaining about). The install location!
> > Currently, even though you can install kicad into separate folders if
> > you wanted to, kicad still tries to write to the same appdata folder!
> >
> > Why would you want both the new and old? Because if you want to tweak
> > a old design, you don't want to risk opening it in newer versions and
> > having unforseen bugs. New designs sure, you really want to use the
> > latest and greatest, but the old is a risk not worth taking,
> > especially in the commercial field ;)
> >
> > Also there is a settings conflicts between 4.0 and 5.0 sharing appdata.
> >
> > I've seen some kicad forum "workarounds" where they use launcher
> > scripts that set KICAD_CONFIG_HOME each time. While it works, its
> > completely against the windows way :3
> >
> >
> > What I propose, is we patch KiCad a little to:
> >
> > 1. Write to appdata in a versioned manner (just minor and maybe
> > minor version)
> > C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 4.0\
> > C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 5.0\
> > C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 6.0\
> >
> > 2. Potentially prompt the user on first-start to copy settings.
> > (Maybe? Might be too much work for the final 5.0)
> >
> > Then we patch the installer to follow the convention of:
> > C:\Program Files\KiCad 4.0\
> > C:\Program Files\KiCad 5.0\
> > C:\Program Files\KiCad 6.0\
> >
> > This would do what every other CAD and IDE does on Windows
> > (versioned installs).
> >
> > But what if people want to install in crazier ways ?!
> > Well then that should beyond the scope of the "standard" installs and
> > they are on their own. (Just like other tools)
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > 
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp



-- 
Mark

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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-11 Thread Adam Wolf

Thanks Wayne!

I want this so badly for the Mac users.  I am willing to put in the effort
to get this added and tested for macOS for 5.1.

Adam Wolf

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 12:56 PM Wayne Stambaugh  wrote:

> Mark,
>
> I agree with you in principal but this would require some major changes
> to KiCad internally to handle the configuration data the "windows" way.
> I really do not want to push the stable 5 release back any further than
> it already has been.  I'm open to trying to accomplish this as part of
> the 5.1 release if we can implement it soon enough to get some testing
> on it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wayne
>
> On 7/8/2018 12:19 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> > Let's postpone this discussion maybe until the 10th when Wayne is back
> > at it.
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 10:33 PM Mark Roszko  > > wrote:
> >
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > So with 5.0 approaching theres something of an annoying problem on
> > windows (that many are complaining about). The install location!
> > Currently, even though you can install kicad into separate folders if
> > you wanted to, kicad still tries to write to the same appdata folder!
> >
> > Why would you want both the new and old? Because if you want to tweak
> > a old design, you don't want to risk opening it in newer versions and
> > having unforseen bugs. New designs sure, you really want to use the
> > latest and greatest, but the old is a risk not worth taking,
> > especially in the commercial field ;)
> >
> > Also there is a settings conflicts between 4.0 and 5.0 sharing
> appdata.
> >
> > I've seen some kicad forum "workarounds" where they use launcher
> > scripts that set KICAD_CONFIG_HOME each time. While it works, its
> > completely against the windows way :3
> >
> >
> > What I propose, is we patch KiCad a little to:
> >
> > 1. Write to appdata in a versioned manner (just minor and maybe
> > minor version)
> > C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 4.0\
> > C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 5.0\
> > C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 6.0\
> >
> > 2. Potentially prompt the user on first-start to copy settings.
> > (Maybe? Might be too much work for the final 5.0)
> >
> > Then we patch the installer to follow the convention of:
> > C:\Program Files\KiCad 4.0\
> > C:\Program Files\KiCad 5.0\
> > C:\Program Files\KiCad 6.0\
> >
> > This would do what every other CAD and IDE does on Windows
> > (versioned installs).
> >
> > But what if people want to install in crazier ways ?!
> > Well then that should beyond the scope of the "standard" installs and
> > they are on their own. (Just like other tools)
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > 
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
>
> ___
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> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-11 Thread Wayne Stambaugh

Mark,

I agree with you in principal but this would require some major changes
to KiCad internally to handle the configuration data the "windows" way.
I really do not want to push the stable 5 release back any further than
it already has been.  I'm open to trying to accomplish this as part of
the 5.1 release if we can implement it soon enough to get some testing
on it.

Cheers,

Wayne

On 7/8/2018 12:19 AM, Adam Wolf wrote:
> Let's postpone this discussion maybe until the 10th when Wayne is back
> at it.
> 
> On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 10:33 PM Mark Roszko  > wrote:
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> So with 5.0 approaching theres something of an annoying problem on
> windows (that many are complaining about). The install location!
> Currently, even though you can install kicad into separate folders if
> you wanted to, kicad still tries to write to the same appdata folder!
> 
> Why would you want both the new and old? Because if you want to tweak
> a old design, you don't want to risk opening it in newer versions and
> having unforseen bugs. New designs sure, you really want to use the
> latest and greatest, but the old is a risk not worth taking,
> especially in the commercial field ;)
> 
> Also there is a settings conflicts between 4.0 and 5.0 sharing appdata.
> 
> I've seen some kicad forum "workarounds" where they use launcher
> scripts that set KICAD_CONFIG_HOME each time. While it works, its
> completely against the windows way :3
> 
> 
> What I propose, is we patch KiCad a little to:
> 
> 1. Write to appdata in a versioned manner (just minor and maybe
> minor version)
> C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 4.0\
> C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 5.0\
> C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 6.0\
> 
> 2. Potentially prompt the user on first-start to copy settings.
> (Maybe? Might be too much work for the final 5.0)
> 
> Then we patch the installer to follow the convention of:
> C:\Program Files\KiCad 4.0\
> C:\Program Files\KiCad 5.0\
> C:\Program Files\KiCad 6.0\
> 
> This would do what every other CAD and IDE does on Windows
> (versioned installs).
> 
> But what if people want to install in crazier ways ?!
> Well then that should beyond the scope of the "standard" installs and
> they are on their own. (Just like other tools)
> 
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to     : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> 
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 

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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-08 Thread Nick Østergaard

I created a ticket on launchpad in
https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1780601

I have target it to the 5.0.0 milestone such that we can make sure we
discuss this in time.

Den søn. 8. jul. 2018 kl. 06.19 skrev Adam Wolf <
adamw...@feelslikeburning.com>:

> Let's postpone this discussion maybe until the 10th when Wayne is back at
> it.
>
> On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 10:33 PM Mark Roszko  wrote:
>
>> Hey guys,
>>
>> So with 5.0 approaching theres something of an annoying problem on
>> windows (that many are complaining about). The install location!
>> Currently, even though you can install kicad into separate folders if
>> you wanted to, kicad still tries to write to the same appdata folder!
>>
>> Why would you want both the new and old? Because if you want to tweak
>> a old design, you don't want to risk opening it in newer versions and
>> having unforseen bugs. New designs sure, you really want to use the
>> latest and greatest, but the old is a risk not worth taking,
>> especially in the commercial field ;)
>>
>> Also there is a settings conflicts between 4.0 and 5.0 sharing appdata.
>>
>> I've seen some kicad forum "workarounds" where they use launcher
>> scripts that set KICAD_CONFIG_HOME each time. While it works, its
>> completely against the windows way :3
>>
>>
>> What I propose, is we patch KiCad a little to:
>>
>> 1. Write to appdata in a versioned manner (just minor and maybe minor
>> version)
>> C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 4.0\
>> C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 5.0\
>> C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 6.0\
>>
>> 2. Potentially prompt the user on first-start to copy settings.
>> (Maybe? Might be too much work for the final 5.0)
>>
>> Then we patch the installer to follow the convention of:
>> C:\Program Files\KiCad 4.0\
>> C:\Program Files\KiCad 5.0\
>> C:\Program Files\KiCad 6.0\
>>
>> This would do what every other CAD and IDE does on Windows (versioned
>> installs).
>>
>> But what if people want to install in crazier ways ?!
>> Well then that should beyond the scope of the "standard" installs and
>> they are on their own. (Just like other tools)
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
> ___
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> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-07 Thread Adam Wolf

Let's postpone this discussion maybe until the 10th when Wayne is back at
it.

On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 10:33 PM Mark Roszko  wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> So with 5.0 approaching theres something of an annoying problem on
> windows (that many are complaining about). The install location!
> Currently, even though you can install kicad into separate folders if
> you wanted to, kicad still tries to write to the same appdata folder!
>
> Why would you want both the new and old? Because if you want to tweak
> a old design, you don't want to risk opening it in newer versions and
> having unforseen bugs. New designs sure, you really want to use the
> latest and greatest, but the old is a risk not worth taking,
> especially in the commercial field ;)
>
> Also there is a settings conflicts between 4.0 and 5.0 sharing appdata.
>
> I've seen some kicad forum "workarounds" where they use launcher
> scripts that set KICAD_CONFIG_HOME each time. While it works, its
> completely against the windows way :3
>
>
> What I propose, is we patch KiCad a little to:
>
> 1. Write to appdata in a versioned manner (just minor and maybe minor
> version)
> C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 4.0\
> C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 5.0\
> C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 6.0\
>
> 2. Potentially prompt the user on first-start to copy settings.
> (Maybe? Might be too much work for the final 5.0)
>
> Then we patch the installer to follow the convention of:
> C:\Program Files\KiCad 4.0\
> C:\Program Files\KiCad 5.0\
> C:\Program Files\KiCad 6.0\
>
> This would do what every other CAD and IDE does on Windows (versioned
> installs).
>
> But what if people want to install in crazier ways ?!
> Well then that should beyond the scope of the "standard" installs and
> they are on their own. (Just like other tools)
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
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[Kicad-developers] kicad version and install location

2018-07-07 Thread Mark Roszko

Hey guys,

So with 5.0 approaching theres something of an annoying problem on
windows (that many are complaining about). The install location!
Currently, even though you can install kicad into separate folders if
you wanted to, kicad still tries to write to the same appdata folder!

Why would you want both the new and old? Because if you want to tweak
a old design, you don't want to risk opening it in newer versions and
having unforseen bugs. New designs sure, you really want to use the
latest and greatest, but the old is a risk not worth taking,
especially in the commercial field ;)

Also there is a settings conflicts between 4.0 and 5.0 sharing appdata.

I've seen some kicad forum "workarounds" where they use launcher
scripts that set KICAD_CONFIG_HOME each time. While it works, its
completely against the windows way :3


What I propose, is we patch KiCad a little to:

1. Write to appdata in a versioned manner (just minor and maybe minor version)
C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 4.0\
C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 5.0\
C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\kicad 6.0\

2. Potentially prompt the user on first-start to copy settings.
(Maybe? Might be too much work for the final 5.0)

Then we patch the installer to follow the convention of:
C:\Program Files\KiCad 4.0\
C:\Program Files\KiCad 5.0\
C:\Program Files\KiCad 6.0\

This would do what every other CAD and IDE does on Windows (versioned installs).

But what if people want to install in crazier ways ?!
Well then that should beyond the scope of the "standard" installs and
they are on their own. (Just like other tools)

___
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