Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 03:04:50PM +0200, Thiadmer Riemersma wrote:
> > Ucamco refrained from adding the netlist to X2 as there is a simple and
> > well-established format adequately describing netlists:  IPC-356-A.

No problem then :D :D

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Thiadmer Riemersma]

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Lorenzo Marcantonio <
l.marcanto...@logossrl.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 07:20:28PM +0200, jp charras wrote:
> > AFAIK, Gerber X2 supports netlist  (this is one of TODO features in
> Kicad).
> > Stackup info is already in our X2 files.
>
> How should X2 give a netlist? You can add an attribute to an aperture
> definition (like 'this is a pad'), but not to a single aperture flash (to
> say "this is pin 2 of U3"). In fact the only aperture attributes are the
> 'aperture usage' and the drill tolerance (for drill gerbers).


This is from a press release from Ucamco:

The attributes intentionally do not cover all possible non-image data.
> Ucamco refrained from adding the netlist to X2 as there is a simple and
> well-established format adequately describing netlists:  IPC-356-A.

(source:
https://www.ucamco.com/en/news/gerbers-new-attributs-set-to-transform-cad-to-cam-communication
)
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Thiadmer Riemersma]

> What about IPC-2581? Is really open? Do PCB manufacturers support it?

The IPC-2581 specification is freely available. I believe it is as open as
Gerber is (but I am not a lawyer).

I am unaware of any PCB manufacturers that support IPC-2851, apart from the
few listed in the website for the IPC-2851.

There is wider support for Gerber X2. The main advantage of ODB+ and
IPC-2851 (as I see it) are also in Gerber X2. KiCad already supports the
essential Gerber X2 features.
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Marco Hess]

On 13-Sep-15 19:03, jp charras wrote:

There are still missing X2 features in KiCad (drill files and a few others).


Is there a list somewhere of which X2 features are missing?


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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[jp charras]

Le 13/09/2015 10:47, Thiadmer Riemersma a écrit :
>> What about IPC-2581? Is really open? Do PCB manufacturers support it?
> 
> The IPC-2581 specification is freely available. I believe it is as open as
> Gerber is (but I am not a lawyer).
> 
> I am unaware of any PCB manufacturers that support IPC-2851, apart from the
> few listed in the website for the IPC-2851.
> 
> There is wider support for Gerber X2. The main advantage of ODB+ and
> IPC-2851 (as I see it) are also in Gerber X2. KiCad already supports the
> essential Gerber X2 features.
> 

There are still missing X2 features in KiCad (drill files and a few others).
We need volunteers to add these features.
X2 format is very well documented, and easy to manage.

Adding any feature like IPCxx or ODB++ imply a way to test it.

We have a *very very good* support from Ucamco (which manages the Gerber
specifs) to test the Gerber features.

So please consider adding these features before working on ODB++
(And remember: no volunteer = no new feature)

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 01:47:21PM +0200, nats wrote:
> Hello,
> I think many of you miss the point of having ODB++ export. It's not really
> usefull for PCB manufacturer, you can always go with gerber + IPC netlist.

Actually more gerber+excellon... the IPC netlist is for cross-checking
the resulting netlist after the panel is generated. Our manufacturers
don't check it, the gerbers are the gold reference for fabrication...

And anyway we have to sign for acceptance the panel files, so they
disclaim everything :D

> But for simulation software you usually need a CAD file (mentor/cadence/...)
> or an ODB++ with Net and components definition. The copper/net part of the
> ODB++ can be easily be generated with CAM software from gerber and IPC
> netlist. The missing part is the component definition.

Good point. However I've only seen request in hyperlynx format for board
simulation, not IPC. Maybe some package works with IPC sources (but I
don't think that the OBD format contains all the 'numerics' needed for a
simulation, pcbnew doesn't for sure :D)

> It's also usefull for documenting PCB by using integrated software like
> Blueprint(tm)(c)

Don't even mention that steaming pile of manure :P one of our assembly
partner bought it (special offer with CAM350) and doesn't work properly
even with the original CAD file :P CAM350 itself has issues but at least
it works...

Anyway probably pcbnew doesn't have access to all the required
information, probably (from pin 1 information to detailed value
numerics)

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Dan Walmsley]

Also its useful for assembly. If we send an odb++ to China, the manufacturer 
can produce the pcb and populate it with the correct parts, etc.

Dan

> To: kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> From: n...@more-magic.org
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 13:47:21 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++
> 
> Hello,
> I think many of you miss the point of having ODB++ export. It's not really
> usefull for PCB manufacturer, you can always go with gerber + IPC netlist.
> 
> But for simulation software you usually need a CAD file (mentor/cadence/...)
> or an ODB++ with Net and components definition. The copper/net part of the
> ODB++ can be easily be generated with CAM software from gerber and IPC
> netlist. The missing part is the component definition.
> 
> It's also usefull for documenting PCB by using integrated software like 
> Blueprint(tm)(c)
> 
> I'm currently working on a python script that generates the component 
> definition
> and add it to the file tree generated by CAM software.
> 
> Le 12/09/2015 22:06, Lorenzo Marcantonio a écrit :
> > On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 06:01:30PM +0200, timofonic timofonic wrote:
> >> I see.
> >>
> >> What about IPC-2581? Is really open? Do PCB manufacturers support it?
> > IPC specs are usually open as in 'buy the paper and then you can
> > implement it'; no consortium, no mandatory fee/royalties/whatever.
> >
> > As in manufacturers support, my experience is that manufacturers just
> > supports gerbers/excellon and maybe one or two CAD packages they have
> > available (usually OrCAD and/or PADS); OTOH since it seems that *all* of
> > them are using genesis 2000 (at least here in italy), they could support
> > OBD++ (but maybe that's an additional license in genesis to buy!)
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 08:02:36PM +0930, Marco Hess wrote:

> Is there a list somewhere of which X2 features are missing?

Not 100% sure but we should have missing only the drill plan as gerber
and aperture attributes (not sure if we have the info to make that
correctly). Also some 'exotic' layer types, which we don't handle...

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 07:20:28PM +0200, jp charras wrote:
> AFAIK, Gerber X2 supports netlist  (this is one of TODO features in Kicad).
> Stackup info is already in our X2 files.

How should X2 give a netlist? You can add an attribute to an aperture 
definition (like 'this is a pad'), but not to a single aperture flash (to say 
"this is pin 2 of U3"). In fact the only aperture attributes are the 'aperture 
usage' and the drill tolerance (for drill gerbers).

--
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Logos Srl

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Wayne Stambaugh]

I tend to lean towards Chris' thinking on this as well.  The primary
problem I see with the ODB++ licensing is that at any time, Mentor can
take their ball and go home leaving us in a really awkward position.
I'm not saying it will happen but it has happened in the past so we
should proceed with caution.  This is why I like the idea of using a
Python script which can live outside of the project just in case.

On 9/12/2015 12:14 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> Yes, while I still strongly dislike the idea of a FOSS project
> encouraging that sort of licensing behavior, legally speaking that would
> work.
> 
> Personally I would rather Mentor get stuffed with that restriction, but
> your 5 cents are worth more than my two. :D
> 
> On Sep 12, 2015 12:11 PM, "Tomasz Wlostowski"  > wrote:
> 
> On 12.09.2015 18:04, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > Not GPL-compatible because the restriction would apply to anyone
> making
> > a derivative of KiCad as well. The only way I can see to do this is a
> > clean-room reverse engineering, which does not appear to be feasible.
> 
> Use plugins. The ODB++/IPC-2581 ones could be kept outside mainline
> Kicad if we would ensure they can be easily installed by a
> non-programmer.
> 
> - my 5 cents,
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > On Sep 10, 2015 12:48 PM, "Mark Roszko"  
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > Nope, you don't have to advertise for Mentor Graphics
> >
> > Here are the terms:
> >
> > 4. PROMOTION.
> >
> > Participant agrees to promote the integration between the
> ODB++ Format
> > and the Participant Products by: (i) joining the ODB++ Solutions
> > Alliance as a “solutions development partnering” member, via
> the ODB++
> > Website, including providing a quote about Participant’s ODB++
> Format
> > implementation for use in Mentor Graphics’ promotional
> materials and
> > on the ODB++ Website; (ii) allowing Mentor Graphics to use
> > Participant’s logo in Mentor Graphics promotional materials
> and on the
> > ODB++ Website; (iii) including a brief factual statement on
> the ODB++
> > Format implementation in Participant’s promotional materials and a
> > link from Participant’s website to the ODB++ Website; (iv)
> making a
> > visible acknowledgement in the Participant’s Products
> (user-interface
> > and documentation) of the support received from Mentor
> Graphics under
> > this Agreement for the implementation of the ODB++ Format; and (v)
> > agreeing to the publication by Mentor Graphics of the existence of
> > Participant’s membership in the ODB++ Solutions Alliance.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I highly doubt Altium and Cadence (both large EDA developers)
> would be
> > supporting ODB++ if they have to advertise their competitor.
> Its just
> > really slapping the logo on the supported products page for
> ODB++ and
> > some marketing FUD for ODB++ because they really want it to
> take off
> > for some reason.
> > http://www.odb-sa.com/partners/
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[jp charras]

Le 13/09/2015 19:04, nats a écrit :
> 
> 
> Le 13/09/2015 17:44, Lorenzo Marcantonio a écrit :
>> On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 01:47:21PM +0200, nats wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> I think many of you miss the point of having ODB++ export. It's not
>>> really
>>> usefull for PCB manufacturer, you can always go with gerber + IPC
>>> netlist.
>> Actually more gerber+excellon... the IPC netlist is for cross-checking
>> the resulting netlist after the panel is generated. Our manufacturers
>> don't check it, the gerbers are the gold reference for fabrication...
>>
>> And anyway we have to sign for acceptance the panel files, so they
>> disclaim everything :D
> Yes gerber + excellon, our manufacturer ask for netlist for checking.

AFAIK, Gerber X2 supports netlist  (this is one of TODO features in Kicad).
Stackup info is already in our X2 files.

>>> But for simulation software you usually need a CAD file
>>> (mentor/cadence/...)
>>> or an ODB++ with Net and components definition. The copper/net part
>>> of the
>>> ODB++ can be easily be generated with CAM software from gerber and IPC
>>> netlist. The missing part is the component definition.
>> Good point. However I've only seen request in hyperlynx format for board
>> simulation, not IPC. Maybe some package works with IPC sources (but I
>> don't think that the OBD format contains all the 'numerics' needed for a
>> simulation, pcbnew doesn't for sure :D)
> Take CST for example (Ansoft HFSS seems too). They have an ODB++ option
> because if you have a
> "full" ODB++ it contains all layers, components position, pad size and
> even stackup data.
> 
> The main problem is the components place/size/pad because recreating
> them by hand is a real pain.
> Stackup data, model (IBIS), etc can be edited easily by hand in CST.
>>
>>> It's also usefull for documenting PCB by using integrated software like
>>> Blueprint(tm)(c)
>> Don't even mention that steaming pile of manure :P one of our assembly
>> partner bought it (special offer with CAM350) and doesn't work properly
>> even with the original CAD file :P CAM350 itself has issues but at least
>> it works...
> Some bug but Blueprint works enough to make the process of documenting
> really faster.
>>
>> Anyway probably pcbnew doesn't have access to all the required
>> information, probably (from pin 1 information to detailed value
>> numerics)
> For a basic support it only misses the stackup data, but again the
> stackup data can be
> easily entered by hand in CAM/Simulation software.
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 06:01:30PM +0200, timofonic timofonic wrote:
> I see.
> 
> What about IPC-2581? Is really open? Do PCB manufacturers support it?

IPC specs are usually open as in 'buy the paper and then you can
implement it'; no consortium, no mandatory fee/royalties/whatever.

As in manufacturers support, my experience is that manufacturers just
supports gerbers/excellon and maybe one or two CAD packages they have
available (usually OrCAD and/or PADS); OTOH since it seems that *all* of
them are using genesis 2000 (at least here in italy), they could support
OBD++ (but maybe that's an additional license in genesis to buy!)

-- 
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Logos Srl

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Dan Walmsley]

I think a plugin would be great, if it helps bring people across to KiCad it 
can only be a good thing?



If you look at the comparison of EDA software on Wikipedia, KiCad is one of the 
few that don’t support some of these formats.



(side note it might be worth updating the Wikipedia page for Kicad and the 
comparison table to reflect latest features)



Its been difficult getting my company to switch because of lack of odb++ (I 
don’t think its important).



Off topic is KiCad the only package with push and shove routing?



If any is interested in working on a plugin id gladly help out.



Thanks Dan





From: Chris Pavlina
Sent: 12 September 2015 17:14
To: kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++


Yes, while I still strongly dislike the idea of a FOSS project encouraging
that sort of licensing behavior, legally speaking that would work.

Personally I would rather Mentor get stuffed with that restriction, but
your 5 cents are worth more than my two. :D
On Sep 12, 2015 12:11 PM, "Tomasz Wlostowski" <tomasz.wlostow...@cern.ch>
wrote:

> On 12.09.2015 18:04, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > Not GPL-compatible because the restriction would apply to anyone making
> > a derivative of KiCad as well. The only way I can see to do this is a
> > clean-room reverse engineering, which does not appear to be feasible.
>
> Use plugins. The ODB++/IPC-2581 ones could be kept outside mainline
> Kicad if we would ensure they can be easily installed by a non-programmer.
>
> - my 5 cents,
> Tom
>
>
>
> >
> > On Sep 10, 2015 12:48 PM, "Mark Roszko" <mark.ros...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:mark.ros...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Nope, you don't have to advertise for Mentor Graphics
> >
> > Here are the terms:
> >
> > 4. PROMOTION.
> >
> > Participant agrees to promote the integration between the ODB++
> Format
> > and the Participant Products by: (i) joining the ODB++ Solutions
> > Alliance as a “solutions development partnering” member, via the
> ODB++
> > Website, including providing a quote about Participant’s ODB++ Format
> > implementation for use in Mentor Graphics’ promotional materials and
> > on the ODB++ Website; (ii) allowing Mentor Graphics to use
> > Participant’s logo in Mentor Graphics promotional materials and on
> the
> > ODB++ Website; (iii) including a brief factual statement on the ODB++
> > Format implementation in Participant’s promotional materials and a
> > link from Participant’s website to the ODB++ Website; (iv) making a
> > visible acknowledgement in the Participant’s Products (user-interface
> > and documentation) of the support received from Mentor Graphics under
> > this Agreement for the implementation of the ODB++ Format; and (v)
> > agreeing to the publication by Mentor Graphics of the existence of
> > Participant’s membership in the ODB++ Solutions Alliance.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I highly doubt Altium and Cadence (both large EDA developers) would
> be
> > supporting ODB++ if they have to advertise their competitor. Its just
> > really slapping the logo on the supported products page for ODB++ and
> > some marketing FUD for ODB++ because they really want it to take off
> > for some reason.
> > http://www.odb-sa.com/partners/
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net>
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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> >
> >
> >
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>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[timofonic timofonic]

I see.

What about IPC-2581? Is really open? Do PCB manufacturers support it?

http://www.ipc-2581.com

If yes: Would be possible to have the KiCad logo here eventually?

http://www.ipc-2581.com/index.php/members-on-top
On Sep 12, 2015 5:00 PM, "Thiadmer Riemersma" 
wrote:

>
> What about clean room reverse engineering?
>>
> I'd advise against this. I have browsed through the ODB+ specification.
> Clean room reverse engineering is a massive undertaking. ODB+ may have its
> advantages, but I doubt it is worth the cost of reverse engineering.
>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Chris Pavlina]

Not GPL-compatible because the restriction would apply to anyone making a
derivative of KiCad as well. The only way I can see to do this is a
clean-room reverse engineering, which does not appear to be feasible.
On Sep 10, 2015 12:48 PM, "Mark Roszko"  wrote:

> Nope, you don't have to advertise for Mentor Graphics
>
> Here are the terms:
>
> 4. PROMOTION.
>
> Participant agrees to promote the integration between the ODB++ Format
> and the Participant Products by: (i) joining the ODB++ Solutions
> Alliance as a “solutions development partnering” member, via the ODB++
> Website, including providing a quote about Participant’s ODB++ Format
> implementation for use in Mentor Graphics’ promotional materials and
> on the ODB++ Website; (ii) allowing Mentor Graphics to use
> Participant’s logo in Mentor Graphics promotional materials and on the
> ODB++ Website; (iii) including a brief factual statement on the ODB++
> Format implementation in Participant’s promotional materials and a
> link from Participant’s website to the ODB++ Website; (iv) making a
> visible acknowledgement in the Participant’s Products (user-interface
> and documentation) of the support received from Mentor Graphics under
> this Agreement for the implementation of the ODB++ Format; and (v)
> agreeing to the publication by Mentor Graphics of the existence of
> Participant’s membership in the ODB++ Solutions Alliance.
>
>
>
>
> I highly doubt Altium and Cadence (both large EDA developers) would be
> supporting ODB++ if they have to advertise their competitor. Its just
> really slapping the logo on the supported products page for ODB++ and
> some marketing FUD for ODB++ because they really want it to take off
> for some reason.
> http://www.odb-sa.com/partners/
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Tomasz Wlostowski]

On 12.09.2015 18:04, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> Not GPL-compatible because the restriction would apply to anyone making
> a derivative of KiCad as well. The only way I can see to do this is a
> clean-room reverse engineering, which does not appear to be feasible.

Use plugins. The ODB++/IPC-2581 ones could be kept outside mainline
Kicad if we would ensure they can be easily installed by a non-programmer.

- my 5 cents,
Tom



> 
> On Sep 10, 2015 12:48 PM, "Mark Roszko"  > wrote:
> 
> Nope, you don't have to advertise for Mentor Graphics
> 
> Here are the terms:
> 
> 4. PROMOTION.
> 
> Participant agrees to promote the integration between the ODB++ Format
> and the Participant Products by: (i) joining the ODB++ Solutions
> Alliance as a “solutions development partnering” member, via the ODB++
> Website, including providing a quote about Participant’s ODB++ Format
> implementation for use in Mentor Graphics’ promotional materials and
> on the ODB++ Website; (ii) allowing Mentor Graphics to use
> Participant’s logo in Mentor Graphics promotional materials and on the
> ODB++ Website; (iii) including a brief factual statement on the ODB++
> Format implementation in Participant’s promotional materials and a
> link from Participant’s website to the ODB++ Website; (iv) making a
> visible acknowledgement in the Participant’s Products (user-interface
> and documentation) of the support received from Mentor Graphics under
> this Agreement for the implementation of the ODB++ Format; and (v)
> agreeing to the publication by Mentor Graphics of the existence of
> Participant’s membership in the ODB++ Solutions Alliance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt Altium and Cadence (both large EDA developers) would be
> supporting ODB++ if they have to advertise their competitor. Its just
> really slapping the logo on the supported products page for ODB++ and
> some marketing FUD for ODB++ because they really want it to take off
> for some reason.
> http://www.odb-sa.com/partners/
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Chris Pavlina]

Yes, while I still strongly dislike the idea of a FOSS project encouraging
that sort of licensing behavior, legally speaking that would work.

Personally I would rather Mentor get stuffed with that restriction, but
your 5 cents are worth more than my two. :D
On Sep 12, 2015 12:11 PM, "Tomasz Wlostowski" 
wrote:

> On 12.09.2015 18:04, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > Not GPL-compatible because the restriction would apply to anyone making
> > a derivative of KiCad as well. The only way I can see to do this is a
> > clean-room reverse engineering, which does not appear to be feasible.
>
> Use plugins. The ODB++/IPC-2581 ones could be kept outside mainline
> Kicad if we would ensure they can be easily installed by a non-programmer.
>
> - my 5 cents,
> Tom
>
>
>
> >
> > On Sep 10, 2015 12:48 PM, "Mark Roszko"  > > wrote:
> >
> > Nope, you don't have to advertise for Mentor Graphics
> >
> > Here are the terms:
> >
> > 4. PROMOTION.
> >
> > Participant agrees to promote the integration between the ODB++
> Format
> > and the Participant Products by: (i) joining the ODB++ Solutions
> > Alliance as a “solutions development partnering” member, via the
> ODB++
> > Website, including providing a quote about Participant’s ODB++ Format
> > implementation for use in Mentor Graphics’ promotional materials and
> > on the ODB++ Website; (ii) allowing Mentor Graphics to use
> > Participant’s logo in Mentor Graphics promotional materials and on
> the
> > ODB++ Website; (iii) including a brief factual statement on the ODB++
> > Format implementation in Participant’s promotional materials and a
> > link from Participant’s website to the ODB++ Website; (iv) making a
> > visible acknowledgement in the Participant’s Products (user-interface
> > and documentation) of the support received from Mentor Graphics under
> > this Agreement for the implementation of the ODB++ Format; and (v)
> > agreeing to the publication by Mentor Graphics of the existence of
> > Participant’s membership in the ODB++ Solutions Alliance.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I highly doubt Altium and Cadence (both large EDA developers) would
> be
> > supporting ODB++ if they have to advertise their competitor. Its just
> > really slapping the logo on the supported products page for ODB++ and
> > some marketing FUD for ODB++ because they really want it to take off
> > for some reason.
> > http://www.odb-sa.com/partners/
> >
> > ___
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> >
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>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Thiadmer Riemersma]

> What about clean room reverse engineering?
>
I'd advise against this. I have browsed through the ODB+ specification.
Clean room reverse engineering is a massive undertaking. ODB+ may have its
advantages, but I doubt it is worth the cost of reverse engineering.
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 9/10/2015 2:43 AM, Lorenzo Marcantonio wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Sep 2015 22:45:08 +0200,
> LordBlick wrote:
> 
>> Give the job to Chuck Norris
> 
> Invoking the Roundhouse Kick License Exception ? :D
> 
> It's not the first time Mentor backtracks on licensing terms. The IPC
> footprint calculator (pcb-libraries, Valor... it's Mentor behind them
> :D) was first a freely downloadable demo (at the time of the B
> specification), it did the calculations but didn't generate the actual
> footprint files.
> 
> Then it was retired, because for the demo you had to buy the IPC specs
> (and still didn't generate footprint without an additional node-locked
> per-CAD license!).
> 
> These days is called 'footprint expert' and the free version only makes
> files with the default settings of the C "standard" revision (quotes
> because it will never become the C revision standard, it's being
> reworked in the IPC-M-440 or something like that). Still need to pay for
> changing options :P
> 
> As far of the licensing terms, it seems the 'partner' rules are
> something like "you have to advertise for Mentor in your product" :D
> 
> Could be doable *if* they don't require some kind of fiscal company
> registration or stuff.

The KiCad project advertise for Mentor Graphics?  Not without monetary
compensation.  I don't see Mentor Graphics donating to the KiCad project.

> 
> Also I didn't read very positive reviews about that standard :P seems
> another failed try to 'proprietarize' the PCB workflow chain (IPC at
> least don't ask for a license for implementation...)
> 

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Mark Roszko]

Nope, you don't have to advertise for Mentor Graphics

Here are the terms:

4. PROMOTION.

Participant agrees to promote the integration between the ODB++ Format
and the Participant Products by: (i) joining the ODB++ Solutions
Alliance as a “solutions development partnering” member, via the ODB++
Website, including providing a quote about Participant’s ODB++ Format
implementation for use in Mentor Graphics’ promotional materials and
on the ODB++ Website; (ii) allowing Mentor Graphics to use
Participant’s logo in Mentor Graphics promotional materials and on the
ODB++ Website; (iii) including a brief factual statement on the ODB++
Format implementation in Participant’s promotional materials and a
link from Participant’s website to the ODB++ Website; (iv) making a
visible acknowledgement in the Participant’s Products (user-interface
and documentation) of the support received from Mentor Graphics under
this Agreement for the implementation of the ODB++ Format; and (v)
agreeing to the publication by Mentor Graphics of the existence of
Participant’s membership in the ODB++ Solutions Alliance.




I highly doubt Altium and Cadence (both large EDA developers) would be
supporting ODB++ if they have to advertise their competitor. Its just
really slapping the logo on the supported products page for ODB++ and
some marketing FUD for ODB++ because they really want it to take off
for some reason.
http://www.odb-sa.com/partners/

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Wed, 09 Sep 2015 19:45:26 +0200,
Dan Walmsley wrote:
> 
> Hello, 
> 
> I have just discovered KiCad. Great work guys.
> 
> Can KiCad export to ODB++?

At the moment, no.

In future, with great difficulty :P

ODB++ is so closed that AFAIK you need to be in the consortium to have
the specifications.

Also it's not really used around, at least here...

-- 
Lorenzo Marcantonio
Logos Srl

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Wed, 09 Sep 2015 22:45:08 +0200,
LordBlick wrote:

> Give the job to Chuck Norris

Invoking the Roundhouse Kick License Exception ? :D

It's not the first time Mentor backtracks on licensing terms. The IPC
footprint calculator (pcb-libraries, Valor... it's Mentor behind them
:D) was first a freely downloadable demo (at the time of the B
specification), it did the calculations but didn't generate the actual
footprint files.

Then it was retired, because for the demo you had to buy the IPC specs
(and still didn't generate footprint without an additional node-locked
per-CAD license!).

These days is called 'footprint expert' and the free version only makes
files with the default settings of the C "standard" revision (quotes
because it will never become the C revision standard, it's being
reworked in the IPC-M-440 or something like that). Still need to pay for
changing options :P

As far of the licensing terms, it seems the 'partner' rules are
something like "you have to advertise for Mentor in your product" :D

Could be doable *if* they don't require some kind of fiscal company
registration or stuff.

Also I didn't read very positive reviews about that standard :P seems
another failed try to 'proprietarize' the PCB workflow chain (IPC at
least don't ask for a license for implementation...)

-- 
Lorenzo Marcantonio
Logos Srl

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Dan,

Thank you for giving KiCad a try.  The members of the KiCad development
team are glad you like it.

KiCad does not support ODB++ and probably wont until it becomes an open
standard.  ODB++ is currently controlled by Mentor Graphics and requires
signing and NDA just to get a copy of the format documentation which
completely goes against the ethos of open source software.

Cheers,

Wayne

On 9/9/2015 1:45 PM, Dan Walmsley wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I have just discovered KiCad. Great work guys.
> 
> Can KiCad export to ODB++?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Mark Roszko]

Wayne,

ODB++ is now "open".
http://www.odb-sa.com/resources

(You just have to register a simple account that does not require an NDA).

But yes the shitty part is this:
"Download of the ODB++ Specification does not grant a license to
develop software interfaces based on the format specification. We
openly encourage users to apply for a license to develop ODB++-based
software as a Solutions Development Partner within the ODB++ Solutions
Alliance at www.odb-sa.com"

Though they argue they have never rejected anyone for a license but we
could always test that hehe.

Regards,
Mark

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Mark,

I'm not surprised.  Without a license, we would potentially skating on
thin legal ice.  I'm not comfortable with this kind of dubious licensing
arrangement.  There may also be licensing compatibility issues with
using GPL code to generate a licensed file format.  One way to get
around the issue would be to maintain a Python script outside of the
project to generate the odb++.  Any takers to put their own personal
name on that one?  I'll pass.

Cheers,

Wayne


On 9/9/2015 4:27 PM, Mark Roszko wrote:
> Wayne,
> 
> ODB++ is now "open".
> http://www.odb-sa.com/resources
> 
> (You just have to register a simple account that does not require an NDA).
> 
> But yes the shitty part is this:
> "Download of the ODB++ Specification does not grant a license to
> develop software interfaces based on the format specification. We
> openly encourage users to apply for a license to develop ODB++-based
> software as a Solutions Development Partner within the ODB++ Solutions
> Alliance at www.odb-sa.com"
> 
> Though they argue they have never rejected anyone for a license but we
> could always test that hehe.
> 
> Regards,
> Mark
> 

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Re: [Kicad-developers] FW: Export to ODB++

[LordBlick]

In response to a message written on 09.09.2015, 22:38, from Wayne Stambaugh:

Any takers to put their own personal name on that one?

Give the job to Chuck Norris

--
Best Regards,
LordBlick

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