KR> Diehl Wing Skins & CG

[Phillip Matheson]

  Sallie has been laughing her A%* off all day, every time she
thinks about it.
---

Lucky you did not have your secret custom on that night, Larry

Phil.



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KR> Diehl Wing Skins & CG

[Virgil N.Salisbury]

 PLEASE, DO NOT DO THAT ! KEEP THE WINGS LEVEL WITH
 THE RUDDER! You increase the Angle of attack with the down 
aileron and set
 yourself up for a SPIN, Virg



>   I can fly through a stall with my feet on the floor, using only 
> aileron to keep wings level.  I like that.
>
>
> Larry Flesner
>
>
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KR> Diehl Wing Skins & CG

[Larry Flesner]

At 11:34 AM 1/26/2014, you wrote:
>Not sure if there is some adverse CG consideration in using the 
>Diehl wing skins on a KR-2 such as on my airplane.  My KR-2 seemed 
>to have that aft CG. I don't have any definitive data, but I have 
>had to move my 2180 VW 2-inches forward from the plans location to 
>get a more stable CG.  Do the Diehl Wing Skins tend to move the design CG aft?
>Sid Wood


To my knowledge, the Diehl skins are simply a less labor intensive 
version of the original stock, plans built, RAF48 airfoil and in no 
way change the CG over the stock built wing.  The reason the original 
KR design tends to come out tail heavy is an error in design, using 
the original VW engine.  The 2S plans simply adds 2 inches forward of 
the spar in the boat. If Sid were to replace his VW with an 0-200, 
I'm guessing he would not want to move it forward at all.  Sid, try 
adding 80 pounds to your engine weight on the computer program and 
see what happens to the CG.  I have no idea how the CL on the RAF48 
compares to the CL on the new airfoil shape and what effect the 
difference, if any, would have on stability.

On the horizontal tail, my KR is stretched 24 inches over stock ( all 
behind the cockpit ), 0-200 on a VW mount with 1 inch spacers added, 
wing at 3 1/2 degrees with 3 degrees washout,  and horizontal at 0 
degrees.  I wish I had more horizontal stabilizer, set to maybe 1/2 
degree negative AOA (wild guess here) and maybe a bit more 
rudder.  If I set my elevator trim to zero and don't touch until 
cruise flight, I'll have to hold a fair amount of back pressure on 
the stick.  Letting go of the stick at that point  (150 mph ) will 
produce a near violent nose down pitch.  On my KR, with me at 200 
pounds and 150 pounds of fuel, all centered within 10 inches behind 
the forward spar, (1100 pounds gross)  my calculated CG is centered 
on the plans CG range.  Given that, it is  the aerodynamic effects, 
not weight location that creates this handling 
characteristic.  Starting from scratch, I'd go with the KR2S plans 
boat, new wing airfoil with all fuel in the wing like my setup, 
Langford's or Jeff Scott's sized horizontal and rudder,  and wait 
until finished to build motor mount placing the CG , with a 
reasonably sized pilot and full fuel, in the forward 2  or 3 inches 
of the design CG range.  I'd probably stick with the 3 1/2 degrees 
AOA on the wing inboard with a 3 degree washout.  I can fly through a 
stall with my feet on the floor, using only aileron to keep wings 
level.  I like that.

As to always flying "full throttle",  I'm guessing the Wright 
Brothers always flew full throttle with their whopping 25 hp 
engine.  I, on the other hand with 100 hp, don't need full throttle 
to obtain a reasonable , fuel conserving , easy on the engine 
speed.  If I had a variable pitch prop, I'd probably fly "wide open 
throttle" above 5000 feet MSL and use propeller pitch to control 
RPM.  With a fixed pitch prop we have to compromise given available 
horsepower.  Flat enough pitch to give us the power for comfortable 
take off and climb may let the engine over speed at 
altitude.  Pitched for a good RPM at cruise with wide open throttle, 
it may not give us the power for takeoff and restrict the climb rate.

No single design can do all things well as the Navy and Air Force 
learn each time they strive for a "one size fits all" airplane.  Each 
of our KR's are a compromise to one extent or another.  We just need 
to build our own KR to meet the characteristics we want it to have.

On a lighter note, for those that bothered to read this far,  I was 
startled awake at 5:00 AM this morning with the police shining a 
flashlight in my face. (no Jone's , I didn't fall asleep at a 
brothel)  It seems the front door was closed but not latched and the 
wind blew it open during the night.  The man delivering the morning 
paper called the police.  That is NOT the way to start your 
day.  Sallie has been laughing her A%* off all day, every time she 
thinks about it.

Larry Flesner

KR> Diehl Wing Skins & CG

[Mark Langford]

Dan Heath wrote:

>I believe that Jim Faughn had his 2180 forward 2" and think that he had 
>stock wings.

Yep, I know a little something about that plane.  Stock wings, 2" spacers 
between engine mount and firewall.  He liked to demonstrate how stable his 
plane was.  The weight and balance sheet shows that with pilot only and full 
fuel, he was at 57.5", which is 2.375" aft of the forward end of the range, 
and 3.625" forward of the aft cg limit, and this is considering the aft 
limit to be 2" forward of where the plans call for.   So his typical CG is 
on the forward side, which explains the reasonable stability, but flying 
straight and level required full nose-up trim from the trim tab!  I've been 
putting a few things in the tail in an effort move the CG back a bit to cure 
that...things like a backup battery, ELT, APRS, and a belly board motor. 
I'm probably a month away from doing an updated weight and balance, but will 
publish it when I get there.

To answer the question of Diehl wing skins affecting viable CG range...I 
assume the Diehl skins is where the 2S plans got the increased forward sweep 
of the wing (all aft spar WAFs bent to 3 degrees).   That shifts the overall 
aerodynamic center of the  wing area forward a bit and should move the CG 
range a bit forward also. The KR2S does this, but the published 8"-16" CG 
spec (aft of the leading edge of the wing) remained the same for both KR2 
and KR2S, if that tells you anything.  I've never bothered to check the 
location of the aerodynamic center for the KR2 vs KR2 with Diehl skins, but 
I'm pretty sure it would move forward a bit.

Today I'm installing shoulder belt harness mounts.  More on that later...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
website at http://www.N56ML.com
 

KR> Diehl Wing Skins & CG

[Sid Wood]

Not sure if there is some adverse CG consideration in using the Diehl wing 
skins on a KR-2 such as on my airplane.  My KR-2 seemed to have that aft CG. 
I don't have any definitive data, but I have had to move my 2180 VW 2-inches 
forward from the plans location to get a more stable CG.  Do the Diehl Wing 
Skins tend to move the design CG aft?

Sid Wood
Tri-gear KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA

--

Gary Shubert wrote:

> What is the going thought on wing and tail incidence angles?  KR2
> I am going to use diehl wing skins and am planning to rebuild my tail with
> the new airfoil coordinates.

The tailfeathers would still follow the plans, which is zero degrees to the
longeron, usually obtained with a 3/32" shim under the forward spar of the
horizontal stab.  Both the plans-built and "new airfoil" horizontal
stabilizers are symmetrical airfoils, so the same incidence applies to
either one.  The only reason it's different with the "new airfoil" is
because the wing airfoil templates are drawn with a little less incidence,
so the tail gets a little less to match it.

Even if you haven't installed the main wing yet, I'd still leave it stock
incidence.  Given my experience, which is you don't fly wide open at
straight and level but a small percentage of the time, the improved view
over the nose while landing is worth more than the tad of speed you might be
giving up...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
website at http://www.N56ML.com
 

KR> Diehl Wing skins

[herbertsn...@aol.com]

Are you going with wet wings or fuel tanks in the wing?

KR> Diehl Wing skins

[Mac McConnell-Wood]

Hi Russ,
 I used Dan's skins on my KR2 some years ago and was fortunate in having
met Dan at a gathering. I think I was the first to use them in the UK ,and
had no problems except that the rib cut out markings didn't correspond
somehow .
 I contacted Dan and he reassured me that my markings were not
accurate ( it was in the '90's and I've forgotten how exactly-but I'll look
up my notes if you can't get better advice).
 One thing I do remember is how fast vinylester goes off , so you have to
get a reliable pal and rehearse the procedure.
  I also had to open inspection panels in the lower skins to satisfy our
inspection authorities who would reinvent the wheel if it hadn't been made
in Birmingham!

Cheers,   Mac  ex  KR2 G-BVZJ
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Russell Barmett  wrote:

>
> Is there anyone that is getting ready to do Diehl wing skins on thier
> KR?
> I have a stock KR and will be attempting to do the wing skins soon. I have
> already modified the spar to the 4-15/16" at the outboard end. I purchased
> the skins and ribs from a builder a lot of years ago and the ribs were
> already cut from the sheet.
> However how do i verify that the ribs are correct and as accurate as they
> need to be? What is the spacing for the ribs?  and i need some information
> on the spar extension.
>I would be willing to help anyone that is getting ready to do this in
> my area
> I am in SW MO.
>My goal is to fly to MVN Sept 2012
>
>Forgive me if i make a mistake on the KRlist ( I am computer challanged)
>
>Thanks in advance for the help.
>
> Russ Barnett
> rbarn...@ipa.net
> N8227
>
> ___
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> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
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>

KR> Diehl Wing skins

[Craig Williams]

Yes I am doing my RAF48 wings using the Diehl skins this winter.  I am in NW 
MO.  We can learn together unless my house sells then I am off to MD.  
Permanent like.


Craig
www.kr2seafury.com
816-992-0135




 From: Russell Barmett <rbarn...@ipa.net>
To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> 
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Diehl Wing skins


     Is there anyone that is getting ready to do Diehl wing skins on thier KR?
I have a stock KR and will be attempting to do the wing skins soon. I have 
already modified the spar to the 4-15/16" at the outboard end. I purchased the 
skins and ribs from a builder a lot of years ago and the ribs were already cut 
from the sheet.
However how do i verify that the ribs are correct and as accurate as they need 
to be? What is the spacing for the ribs?  and i need some information on the 
spar extension.
    I would be willing to help anyone that is getting ready to do this in my 
area
I am in SW MO.
    My goal is to fly to MVN Sept 2012

    Forgive me if i make a mistake on the KRlist ( I am computer challanged)

    Thanks in advance for the help.

Russ Barnett
rbarn...@ipa.net
N8227

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KR> Diehl Wing skins

[Russell Barmett]

 Is there anyone that is getting ready to do Diehl wing skins on thier KR?
I have a stock KR and will be attempting to do the wing skins soon. I have 
already modified the spar to the 4-15/16" at the outboard end. I purchased the 
skins and ribs from a builder a lot of years ago and the ribs were already cut 
from the sheet.
However how do i verify that the ribs are correct and as accurate as they need 
to be? What is the spacing for the ribs?  and i need some information on the 
spar extension.
I would be willing to help anyone that is getting ready to do this in my 
area
I am in SW MO.
My goal is to fly to MVN Sept 2012

Forgive me if i make a mistake on the KRlist ( I am computer challanged)

Thanks in advance for the help.

Russ Barnett
rbarn...@ipa.net
N8227

KR> Diehl Wing skins

[Chris Johnston]

I want to see if I can get a set of Diehl wing skins, it seems Diehl 
aeronautical is not wanting to be bothered making them anymore, which has upset 
my building plans no end. We were also planning on using them in a 
fibreglassing course, plus they give you a bit better performance. A freind of 
mine has a container leaving the US in about two weeks and he suggested as a 
last ditch desperate attempt to get a set of wing skins by asking the krnet if 
anyone has a set which they don't want, told him the chances of this happening 
are about 6 zillion to one, but he insisted, so if anyone has a set they would 
like to sell, please let me know. 



Chris Johnston

North Richmond

NSW AUSTRALIA.

KR> Diehl Wing skins

[VIRGIL N SALISBURY]

Try Rand Robinson, Virg

On Sat, 7 Oct 2006 00:36:17 +1000 "Chris Johnston" 
writes:
> I want to see if I can get a set of Diehl wing skins, it seems 
> Diehl aeronautical is not wanting to be bothered making them 
> anymore, which has upset my building plans no end. We were also 
> planning on using them in a fibreglassing course, plus they give you 
> a bit better performance. A freind of mine has a container leaving 
> the US in about two weeks and he suggested as a last ditch desperate 
> attempt to get a set of wing skins by asking the krnet if anyone has 
> a set which they don't want, told him the chances of this happening 
> are about 6 zillion to one, but he insisted, so if anyone has a set 
> they would like to sell, please let me know. 
> 
> 
>  
>Chris Johnston
>  
>North Richmond
>  
>NSW AUSTRALIA.
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at 
> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 
> 


Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
Miami ,Fl

KR> Diehl Wing skins

[Chris Johnston]

Good idea,   excellent idea actually! only problem is RR never 
answer back to us colonialist, I wanted to get canopies, engine cowlings etc 
etc, but its like talking to the never never, pretty poor customer service, 
nothing like the usual levels of customer service one gets from the US. But, 
will try again.



Chris Johnston

North Richmond

NSW Australia
- Original Message - 
From: "VIRGIL N SALISBURY" <virg...@juno.com>
To: <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 5:38 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Diehl Wing skins


>Try Rand Robinson, Virg
>
> On Sat, 7 Oct 2006 00:36:17 +1000 "Chris Johnston" <chr...@ozdocs.net.au>
> writes:
>> I want to see if I can get a set of Diehl wing skins, it seems
>> Diehl aeronautical is not wanting to be bothered making them
>> anymore, which has upset my building plans no end. We were also
>> planning on using them in a fibreglassing course, plus they give you
>> a bit better performance. A freind of mine has a container leaving
>> the US in about two weeks and he suggested as a last ditch desperate
>> attempt to get a set of wing skins by asking the krnet if anyone has
>> a set which they don't want, told him the chances of this happening
>> are about 6 zillion to one, but he insisted, so if anyone has a set
>> they would like to sell, please let me know.
>>
>>
>>
>>Chris Johnston
>>
>>North Richmond
>>
>>NSW AUSTRALIA.
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at
>> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>>
>>
>
>
> Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
> www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
> Miami ,Fl
>
> ___
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> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> Diehl Wing skins

[VIRGIL N SALISBURY]

Fax and leave a return Fax number. Good paper trail, Virg

On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 19:56:06 +1000 "Chris Johnston" <chr...@ozdocs.net.au>
writes:
> Good idea,   excellent idea actually! only problem is RR 
> never 
> answer back to us colonialist, I wanted to get canopies, engine 
> cowlings etc 
> etc, but its like talking to the never never, pretty poor customer 
> service, 
> nothing like the usual levels of customer service one gets from the 
> US. But, 
> will try again.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Chris Johnston
>  
> 
> North Richmond
>  
> 
> NSW Australia
> - Original Message - 
> From: "VIRGIL N SALISBURY" <virg...@juno.com>
> To: <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 5:38 AM
> Subject: Re: KR> Diehl Wing skins
> 
> 
> >Try Rand Robinson, Virg
> >
> > On Sat, 7 Oct 2006 00:36:17 +1000 "Chris Johnston" 
> <chr...@ozdocs.net.au>
> > writes:
> >> I want to see if I can get a set of Diehl wing skins, it 
> seems
> >> Diehl aeronautical is not wanting to be bothered making them
> >> anymore, which has upset my building plans no end. We were also
> >> planning on using them in a fibreglassing course, plus they give 
> you
> >> a bit better performance. A freind of mine has a container 
> leaving
> >> the US in about two weeks and he suggested as a last ditch 
> desperate
> >> attempt to get a set of wing skins by asking the krnet if anyone 
> has
> >> a set which they don't want, told him the chances of this 
> happening
> >> are about 6 zillion to one, but he insisted, so if anyone has a 
> set
> >> they would like to sell, please let me know.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Chris Johnston
> >>
> >>North Richmond
> >>
> >>NSW AUSTRALIA.
> >> ___
> >> Search the KRnet Archives at
> >> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> >> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to 
> krnet-le...@mylist.net
> >> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
> > www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
> > Miami ,Fl
> >
> > ___
> > Search the KRnet Archives at 
> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to 
> krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> > 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 


Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
Miami ,Fl

KR> Diehl Wing skins

[VIRGIL N SALISBURY]

Send me your info, Virg

Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
Miami ,Fl

KR> diehl wing skins

[Phil Matheson]

 Epoxy will not bond to
>cured Vinyl Ester.
Also
Epoxy will not cure near uncured VR. the Fumes from VR stops the epoxy from 
drying completely.
Epoxy will stick to well cured VR. But as the instruction say. USE VR resin 
not Epoxy to bond the wing skins.

I got my VR resin from a manufacturer of composition Kayaks, NO smell, no 
problems working with it.

HE also warned me NOT to try and put EPOXY near uncured VR.

Phil Matheson
mathes...@dodo.com.au
VH-PKR  ( Phil's KR)
61 3 58833588
Australia.( Down Under)
See My KR2 Building Web Page at:
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/flyingkrphil/VHPKR.html
See our VW Engines and Home built web page at
http://www.vw-engines.com/
www.homebuilt-aviation.com/
http://corvair.vw-engines.com/ 

KR> diehl wing skins

[w.higdon9...@comcast.net]

Phil, 
It sounds like they use an additive that cuts down on the typical Sytrene" 
smell that is common with VE and PE resins. The additive doesn't affect the 
finished product any, it just cuts down on the smell. I used to have the trade 
names on my computer, but that was before the crash.
Bill Higdon


>  Epoxy will not bond to
> >cured Vinyl Ester.
> Also
> Epoxy will not cure near uncured VR. the Fumes from VR stops the epoxy from 
> drying completely.
> Epoxy will stick to well cured VR. But as the instruction say. USE VR resin 
> not Epoxy to bond the wing skins.
> 
> I got my VR resin from a manufacturer of composition Kayaks, NO smell, no 
> problems working with it.
> 
> HE also warned me NOT to try and put EPOXY near uncured VR.
> 
> Phil Matheson
> mathes...@dodo.com.au
> VH-PKR  ( Phil's KR)
> 61 3 58833588
> Australia.( Down Under)
> See My KR2 Building Web Page at:
> http://mywebpage.netscape.com/flyingkrphil/VHPKR.html
> See our VW Engines and Home built web page at
> http://www.vw-engines.com/
> www.homebuilt-aviation.com/
> http://corvair.vw-engines.com/ 
> 
> 
> ___
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> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> diehl wing skins

[Chad Stenson]

Everyone,

What are anyone's thoughts on the Diehl wing skins on a KR2S?  I would assume 
they use the original RAF48 airfoil rather than the new one correct?  Pros or 
cons?  $1800 doesn't seem too bad to me.  Does the additional wingspan take 
away any on the cruise speeds?  

Thanks
chad


___
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KR> diehl wing skins

[Larry Flesner]

>
>What are anyone's thoughts on the Diehl wing skins on a KR2S?  I 
>would assume they use the original RAF48 airfoil rather than the new 
>one correct?  Pros or cons?  $1800 doesn't seem too bad to me.  Does 
>the additional wingspan take away any on the cruise speeds?
>chad
++

Probably a few miles per hour but if you are going to use an engine of
less than 100 hp you will probably appreciate the extra climb rate they
will give.  They also build A LOT FASTER than scratch built wings.

If $1800 fits your budget ,and you don't intend to go with the new wing
shape, I'd be inclined to go with them.  Get it flying.  That's the 
fun part.  :-)


Larry Flesner

KR> diehl wing skins

[Dan Heath]

We have them and they are nice. They are very long and I don't know how that
will affect peformance, good or bad. They will cut your building time and
are easy to finish and are for the RAF48. I don't know if they fit the 2S,
but I am sure that someone will come forward with that information. 

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 

See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering

There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building
is OVER.

Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

---Original Message---

What are anyone's thoughts on the Diehl wing skins on a KR2S?

KR> diehl wing skins

[Kenneth B. Jones]

See http://diehlaero.com/
- Original Message - 
From: "Chad Stenson" <cjsten...@ameritech.net>
To: <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:18 AM
Subject: KR> diehl wing skins


> Everyone,
>
> What are anyone's thoughts on the Diehl wing skins on a KR2S?  I would 
> assume they use the original RAF48 airfoil rather than the new one 
> correct?  Pros or cons?  $1800 doesn't seem too bad to me.  Does the 
> additional wingspan take away any on the cruise speeds?
>
> Thanks
> chad
>
>
> ___
> Sent through e-mol. E-mail, Anywhere, Anytime. http://www.e-mol.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> diehl wing skins

[Wood, Sidney M.]

KR-2 N6242 has Diehl wing skins.  These are RAF 48 and extend the wing span to 
23 feet 6 inches.  The skins are made from Vinyl Ester Resin.  You must use 
Vinyl Ester Resin for any and all glue work that touches the skins.  You must 
not use epoxy to glue the Vinyl Ester skins.  Epoxy will not bond to cured 
Vinyl Ester.  As the Vinyl Ester Resin cures it releases Styrene fumes that 
will turn your workshop into a gas chamber.  A charcoal respirator rated for 
organic fumes will handle that.  Make sure you have plenty of ventilation  and 
the fumes do not go into the house so the dog, cat, goldfish, significant 
other, etc. don't get gassed out.  You have to build the spars with the taper 
to match the skins per the Diehl plans.  If you have already built the spars 
according to the RR plans for KR-2, you will need to junk the outer spars and 
build new ones, or do some weird mods which may not be safe.  If you build in 
wing tanks per the Diehl plans, be certain that you have at least two more 
helpers who thoroughly understand what they are doing when you put the top skin 
on.  And if they use glasses for reading or bifocals, MAKE DAMN SURE THEY ARE 
WEARING THEIR GLASSES.  Don't ask why I make a fuss about that.  You only get 
one chance to put the top skin on and you got to do it right that first time.  
One of the distinct advantages of Vinyl Ester Resin is that it is fuel proof.  
This stuff was originally developed to coat the inside of fuel tanks in 
refineries.  Epoxy will tolerate 100 LL but will deteriorate with automotive 
fuels.  There are additives, such as ethanol, butane, TCP, etc., in automotive 
fuels that will slowly destroy epoxy; Vinyl Ester is totally immune to these 
chemicals.
I had a brief conversation with Dan Diehl a few years ago regarding the KR-2S 
airfoil.  He had thought about producing wing skins for the KR-2S, but decided 
that the new tooling expense was not justified for the limited sets that he 
could sell.  I do not know if he has revisited that decision.  You could 
contact him at Diehl Aero-Nautical, 1855 North Elm, Jenks, OK 74037 (918) 
299-4445 for further information.
Sid Wood 
Tri-gear KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD USA
sidney.w...@titan.com

See http://diehlaero.com/
- Original Message - 
From: "Chad Stenson" <cjsten...@ameritech.net>
To: <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:18 AM
Subject: KR> diehl wing skins


> Everyone,
>
> What are anyone's thoughts on the Diehl wing skins on a KR2S?  I would 
> assume they use the original RAF48 airfoil rather than the new one 
> correct?  Pros or cons?  $1800 doesn't seem too bad to me.  Does the 
> additional wingspan take away any on the cruise speeds?
>
> Thanks
> chad
>
>

KR> diehl wing skins

[larry severson]

>The skins are made from Vinyl Ester Resin.  You must use Vinyl Ester 
>Resin for any and all glue work that touches the skins.  You must 
>not use epoxy to glue the Vinyl Ester skins.  Epoxy will not bond to 
>cured Vinyl Ester.

You have that backwards. Vinyl ester will not bond with epoxy. Epoxy 
bonds beautifully with VE according to the composites chair at 
Cerritos College (rated the best composite training school in the 
U.S. by Composites Manufacturing Magazine).


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
lar...@socal.rr.com 

KR> diehl wing skins

[da...@alltel.net]

My experience says that Epoxy does not bond well to VE.  When we are talking 
wings, use VE and nothing else.  I am sure that is what Dan Diehl would 
recommend.  

If you rough it up enough, epoxy will make a bond, but I don't think it good 
enough to trust to your wings.

Dan H.


From: larry severson <lar...@socal.rr.com>
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 2005/11/10 Thu AM 10:03:18 CST
To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
Subject: RE: KR> diehl wing skins


>The skins are made from Vinyl Ester Resin.  You must use Vinyl Ester 
>Resin for any and all glue work that touches the skins.  You must 
>not use epoxy to glue the Vinyl Ester skins.  Epoxy will not bond to 
>cured Vinyl Ester.

You have that backwards. Vinyl ester will not bond with epoxy. Epoxy 
bonds beautifully with VE according to the composites chair at 
Cerritos College (rated the best composite training school in the 
U.S. by Composites Manufacturing Magazine).


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
lar...@socal.rr.com 


___
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KR> diehl wing skins

[Stephen Teate]

You are correct. I reviewed Dan's tape again last weekend and he relates
a story of one customer who used safety-poxy to join the skins.
Apparently the customer "bumped" them after they were cured and they
cracked along the seam. The customer then peeled them off the airplane!
Stephen

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On
Behalf Of da...@alltel.net
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 11:19 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: RE: KR> diehl wing skins

My experience says that Epoxy does not bond well to VE.  When we are
talking wings, use VE and nothing else.  I am sure that is what Dan
Diehl would recommend.  

If you rough it up enough, epoxy will make a bond, but I don't think it
good enough to trust to your wings.

Dan H.


From: larry severson <lar...@socal.rr.com>
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 2005/11/10 Thu AM 10:03:18 CST
To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
Subject: RE: KR> diehl wing skins


>The skins are made from Vinyl Ester Resin.  You must use Vinyl Ester 
>Resin for any and all glue work that touches the skins.  You must 
>not use epoxy to glue the Vinyl Ester skins.  Epoxy will not bond to 
>cured Vinyl Ester.

You have that backwards. Vinyl ester will not bond with epoxy. Epoxy 
bonds beautifully with VE according to the composites chair at 
Cerritos College (rated the best composite training school in the 
U.S. by Composites Manufacturing Magazine).


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
lar...@socal.rr.com 


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KR> diehl wing skins

[larry severson]

At 09:45 AM 11/10/2005, you wrote:
>You are correct. I reviewed Dan's tape again last weekend and he relates
>a story of one customer who used safety-poxy to join the skins.
>Apparently the customer "bumped" them after they were cured and they
>cracked along the seam. The customer then peeled them off the airplane!

If the customer did not abrade the attach area, that would be the 
effect. However,

(I queried an expert)
I understood that epoxy would be an effective join for vinyl ester, 
but not the other way. True?

(response from an expert)
Larry , if the part is made of VE and you join or bond it with an 
epoxy joint compound np. because of the more aggressive covalent bond 
and lap shear of the epoxy. Vinylester as a joining compound has a 
much lower youg's modulus and subsequent lapshear so that is correct.

Regards,
Damian Gregory N8427 Q200

What he is saying is that one should always go equal of better in 
bonding two parts.
polyester bonding use polyester, vinyl ester, or epoxy
vinyl ester use vinyl ester or epoxy
epoxy use ONLY epoxy

Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
lar...@socal.rr.com 

KR> diehl wing skins

[Larry Flesner]

>
>My experience says that Epoxy does not bond well to VE.  When we are
>talking wings, use VE and nothing else.  I am sure that is what Dan
>Diehl would recommend.
>Dan H.
+

I'm  sure that's good advise but I suspect that the builder that had the wings
crack did little in the way of prep work other than "slapping them on".

I used nothing but epoxy to install my VE pre-molded turtle deck, forward deck,
and cowling.  I sanded the edges in the bonding area down well and then
used epoxy based fill over most of the area.  182 hours and no problems
to date.  As always, your results may vary.

Larry Flesner

KR> diehl wing skins

[Dan Heath]

I think that wings and other areas have a different level of criticality and
stress. I also did not use VE on areas other than the wings and you can get
a good bond, but it is just good. When Jerry and I installed the first
windshield made from Lexan, anyone remember how long ago that was?, well, I
bonded it to the forward deck which is made using VE, using Aero Poxy. When
I had to remove it, all I had to do was to get the fiberglass tape started
peeling off and then gave it a healthy yank and up it came. Not something I
want to trust to the wings. I did continue to use Aero Poxy on the final
windshield that is in there now, and it is what bonds the VE turtle deck to
the fuselage.

Rough it up good and you can get a good bond, but as Larry says,...



See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 

See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering

There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building
is OVER.

Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

---Original Message---

>

>My experience says that Epoxy does not bond well to VE. When we are

>talking wings, use VE and nothing else. I am sure that is what Dan

>Diehl would recommend.

+

I used nothing but epoxy to install my VE pre-molded turtle deck, forward
deck,

and cowling. 

KR> diehl wing skins

[Brian Kraut]

I have used epoxy on many, many VE premolded parts without any problems.  I
use a wire brush in my drill instead of sandpaper to get a real good rough
surface fast.  Of course, I can't think of any reason not to just use VE on
the wing skins.  Dan even supplies it with the skins.  When I am using epoxy
it is because I am making a mod to a cowl or something and I have the epoxy
on hand and don't want to buy a whole gallon of VE.

Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com

-Original Message-

KR> Diehl wing skins & stock spars

[John Bouyea]

Hello all.

I disassembled the wings from one of my projects last weekend.  I'm planning
to build new spars this weekend and found an issue where I'd appreciate some
help.



The Diehl instructions say it is permitted to use the existing spars if they
are already built.  If they are not yet built, there are some modifications
provided.  The most significant (to me) is the width of the spar cap (as
viewed from the top.)



The stock outboard main spars measure 1 15/16" at the root and 1" at the
tip.  Quoted from KR2 plans book#65 serial #7097

The modifications call for 1 15/16" from the root all the way to the tip.  



Quote from the wing skin instructions: "This is stronger because of the
increased contact area between the spar and the wing skin."



Did this concern anyone else who used Diehl wing skins?





John Bouyea

KR2 - hanging the engine accessories

KR2S - boat hanging from the rafters



john_0...@bouyea.net



www.bouyea.net

KR> Diehl wing skins & stock spars

[Phillip Matheson]

John
I made the new spars for my Diehl skins, ( old ones warped) as per Dans
instructions, they are a bit heavier, but I'm told , much stronger. you must
be carefull with the shaping of the top of the spar to match the curve on
the skin, or it will show up when it is finished.

Phil Matheson
mathe...@dodo.com.au
Australia
61 3 58833588
Kr Construction Web page
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Flyingkrphil/VHPKR.html
See our  VW Engines and home built Parts
and Kits at:
http://www.vw-engines.com/
www.homebuilt-aviation.com

KR> Diehl wing skins

[danharris]

   I haved just moved my shop to Lampson Field at Lakeport,Calif.That was a 
6 week ordeal that set me back on my KR2S,now i must make up time.
   Has any one used the Diehl wing skins? If so please fill me in,good ,bad 
or indifference,help!!

KR> Diehl wing skins

[Mac McConnell-Wood]

Dan,  I've fitted Diehl wing skins to my KR2. Had them on for 8
years.Survived a ground loop (into a crop of canola which took the engine
off), without a scratch.The only problem with construction I found was using
vinyl resin,which Dan recommends.It sets so quickly that you have to get it
right first time.If you need any more info or pics let me know.
Regards   Mac KR2 G-BVZJ   Hampshire England.
- Original Message - 
From: "danharris" <danhar...@pacific.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 6:28 AM
Subject: KR> Diehl wing skins


>I haved just moved my shop to Lampson Field at Lakeport,Calif.That was
a
> 6 week ordeal that set me back on my KR2S,now i must make up time.
>Has any one used the Diehl wing skins? If so please fill me in,good
,bad
> or indifference,help!!
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Diehl wing skins

[Dan Heath]

If you do it right, the results are better than I could ever get by building
them from scratch. The vinyl ester does set up very quickly, so plan well
and have several friends over for a wing installing party. Make sure that
everyone knows what they are to do. Don't skimp on the vinyl ester flox mix,
be sure there is enough to make complete contact. On the other side, I think
that you can make lighter wings if you are really good at composite work and
you may not want wings as long as the Diehl skins. 

While you are at the Gathering, look around and you will probably be able to
pick out the KRs with skins and the ones built from scratch.

"There is a time for building and a time for GOING TO THE GATHERING, and the
time for building has long since expired."

See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering http://KRGathering.org

See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics

Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC