KR> Ethanol Continued
Thanks,good additionial data points!Regards,Bill Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Gibson Racing Group via KRnet wrote: Hey, guys.? I usually just lurk, absorb the (often extremely) useful information I run across here, and take the rest with a grain of salt.? I was also on vacation so might have missed part of this conversation,? However, having spent a great deal of time with methanol/ethanol in racing, I thought it might be helpful to some readers to mention a thing or two.? As stated, alcohol does readily absorb water.? On a race car, as long as one takes some care with fuel storage, this is not an issue, but with aircraft which can often sit for long periods of time, a person would want to be very cognizant of that fact.? Keeping fuel tanks completely full if stored would probably be a good idea, and if the plane was going to sit over the winter I?d recommend an additive and possibly consider draining/replacing the fuel prior to resuming use. Oh, and it is VERY corrosive of aluminum, so unless you can guarantee a perfect anodize or other protective barrier, I would be nervous about that.? I?ve never seen steel fuel tanks in aircraft.? There are undoubtedly suitable composites and/or sealers that would be safe with it, but remember all the other components in your system have to be fuel safe, too. Secondly, as was mentioned alcohol is a great, industrial cleaning agent.? Before you get too proud of that fact, though, realize that it does the same thing to your cylinder walls during running, washing the oil off of them and creating significantly increased wear.? Again, on a race car that would only run a couple hundred hours tops between teardown (and much less at full power), it was something that could be dealt with, but one would really want to do some research on how much one?s TBO would be affected.? Also, because of these properties when running rich it can and does get by the rings and into the oil, leading to milky, compromised oil. Alcohol has just about exactly 1/2 the energy of gasoline, so while its octane is nice, don?t forget you?ll be running almost exactly twice as much of it.? It weighs about a pound a gallon less, if I recall, but the increased capacity required to run something on significant percentage of alcohol will be a problem.? Also, ?cheap? alcohol tends to get more expensive when you need twice as much of it. Lastly, a desirable quality for ground-level racing on hot summer days is that the evaporation qualities of alcohol (and perhaps a bit its hydroscopic properties) is that it will positively ice up a manifold as it runs through it, greatly cooling the charge which, again, is nice for racing.? However, I have no idea how this might play on a plane that was not injected, which have to watch for icing even on gasoline.? Again, something I would want to know a lot more about. Just food for thought. > On Jun 6, 2016, at 5:06 PM, billjacobs386 at yahoo.com via KRnet list.krnet.org> wrote: > > >? ? Andrew,The information that you provided is sincerely appreciated. People >may have different opinions. BUT you cannot argue with the that much solid >data.Thanks again. > Bill Jacobs > > > -- Original message--From: Andrew Sugg via KRnet Date: Mon, Jun 6, > 2016 1:17 PMTo: krnet at list.krnet.org;Cc: Andrew Sugg;Subject:KR> Ethanol > ContinuedTony- Even full aircraft can be modified for ethanol use. Our fleet > was donated or purchased aicraft. We simply pull what components we needed > and anodized the alluminum, and replaced natural rubber with teflon.- The > water issue is another reason we did the test. Ethanol is ** ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options
KR> Ethanol Continued
Hey, guys. I usually just lurk, absorb the (often extremely) useful information I run across here, and take the rest with a grain of salt. I was also on vacation so might have missed part of this conversation, However, having spent a great deal of time with methanol/ethanol in racing, I thought it might be helpful to some readers to mention a thing or two. As stated, alcohol does readily absorb water. On a race car, as long as one takes some care with fuel storage, this is not an issue, but with aircraft which can often sit for long periods of time, a person would want to be very cognizant of that fact. Keeping fuel tanks completely full if stored would probably be a good idea, and if the plane was going to sit over the winter I?d recommend an additive and possibly consider draining/replacing the fuel prior to resuming use. Oh, and it is VERY corrosive of aluminum, so unless you can guarantee a perfect anodize or other protective barrier, I would be nervous about that. I?ve never seen steel fuel tanks in aircraft. There are undoubtedly suitable composites and/or sealers that would be safe with it, but remember all the other components in your system have to be fuel safe, too. Secondly, as was mentioned alcohol is a great, industrial cleaning agent. Before you get too proud of that fact, though, realize that it does the same thing to your cylinder walls during running, washing the oil off of them and creating significantly increased wear. Again, on a race car that would only run a couple hundred hours tops between teardown (and much less at full power), it was something that could be dealt with, but one would really want to do some research on how much one?s TBO would be affected. Also, because of these properties when running rich it can and does get by the rings and into the oil, leading to milky, compromised oil. Alcohol has just about exactly 1/2 the energy of gasoline, so while its octane is nice, don?t forget you?ll be running almost exactly twice as much of it. It weighs about a pound a gallon less, if I recall, but the increased capacity required to run something on significant percentage of alcohol will be a problem. Also, ?cheap? alcohol tends to get more expensive when you need twice as much of it. Lastly, a desirable quality for ground-level racing on hot summer days is that the evaporation qualities of alcohol (and perhaps a bit its hydroscopic properties) is that it will positively ice up a manifold as it runs through it, greatly cooling the charge which, again, is nice for racing. However, I have no idea how this might play on a plane that was not injected, which have to watch for icing even on gasoline. Again, something I would want to know a lot more about. Just food for thought. > On Jun 6, 2016, at 5:06 PM, billjacobs386 at yahoo.com via KRnet list.krnet.org> wrote: > > >Andrew,The information that you provided is sincerely appreciated. People > may have different opinions. BUT you cannot argue with the that much solid > data.Thanks again. > Bill Jacobs > > > -- Original message--From: Andrew Sugg via KRnet Date: Mon, Jun 6, > 2016 1:17 PMTo: krnet at list.krnet.org;Cc: Andrew Sugg;Subject:KR> Ethanol > ContinuedTony- Even full aircraft can be modified for ethanol use. Our fleet > was donated or purchased aicraft. We simply pull what components we needed > and anodized the alluminum, and replaced natural rubber with teflon.- The > water issue is another reason we did the test. Ethanol is **
KR> Ethanol Continued
Andrew,The information that you provided is sincerely appreciated. People may have different opinions. BUT you cannot argue with the that much solid data.Thanks again. Bill Jacobs -- Original message--From: Andrew Sugg via KRnet Date: Mon, Jun 6, 2016 1:17 PMTo: krnet at list.krnet.org;Cc: Andrew Sugg;Subject:KR> Ethanol ContinuedTony- Even full aircraft can be modified for ethanol use. Our fleet was donated or purchased aicraft. We simply pull what components we needed and anodized the alluminum, and replaced natural rubber with teflon.- The water issue is another reason we did the test. Ethanol is moonshine, and readily absorbs water. Now, you will never get 100% ethanol outside of a labratory. Even your 200 proof moonshine is roughly 95% ethanol and 5% water. Part of our testing included static tank test, aka fuel sitting in the tank for extended periods of time without use or agitation. The highest water absorbtion we saw was 5% during a hot, rainy Texas summer. Since the ethanol distributes the water, you don't have to worry about water destroying your fuel tank or vapor locking the engine. Our tested used E85 (85% ethanol 15% denaturing chemicals). We then added water (at 5% incriments) into the fuel tank and ran the engine for 5 hours, mimicing all phases of flight. We did go up to 15% water before we started hitting peak EGT before backing off on the throttle. In short, your fuel tank isn't going to allow enough water vapor in the air to pass into the tank and be absorbed to the point of causing noticeable changes. If there is that much water, someone poured it into the tank.Chris- E85/E90 is what we considered 100% during our testing, because it was 100% ethanol fuel with no 100LL in the tanks. Fuel manufacturers are required by law to add denaturing chemicals to the ethanol fuel so you can't give your car/airplane a gallon and a gallon for yourself.- In all my testing and the research that had been previously done, I couldn't find anything connecting vapor lock with ethanol use. I will state, we did have issues with start up in extremely cold temperatures (subzero Farenheit), which was countered with a fuel heater. So, probably not a great fuel for Alaskan winters.- For corrosion, we did multiple test to include common aircraft metals and composite materials. Ethanol does a great job cleaning steel (our 5,000gal steel fuel cell had no corrosion when inspected at the 5 year mark. It even cleaned the rust off of a chain that was dropped into the tank.). It does eat alluminum, but anodizing protects the alluminum components. We slosh anodized our Cessna tanks and saw no problems. With the composites, we used E-glass and Aeropoxy resin, gel coat, and carbon fiber. We saw no reaction to any composite materials during the 5 year testing.Bill- Most auto "flex fuels" are tuned to run on 87 octane, which further drives people away. NASCAR and INDY do run ethanol due to it's benefits. It also makes fuel spill clean up a lot easier. E90 and E85 are becoming more popular, but if you are in an area that has either, you could use it. One of the reasons for our testing between different ethanol and 100LL testing was for availability reasons. Say someone is able to fly at their home airport on ethanol, but was not able to find it during a cross country. You wouldn't know the exact ratio. So we tested at 10% incriments betwen 100% ethanol fuel (E85) to 100% 100LL. There were no changes in performance, outside of what we expected due to fuel flow and horsepower changes that happen between the fuels.___Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.orgplease see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.htmlsee http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options
KR> Ethanol Continued
Tony - Even full aircraft can be modified for ethanol use. Our fleet was donated or purchased aicraft. We simply pull what components we needed and anodized the alluminum, and replaced natural rubber with teflon. - The water issue is another reason we did the test. Ethanol is moonshine, and readily absorbs water. Now, you will never get 100% ethanol outside of a labratory. Even your 200 proof moonshine is roughly 95% ethanol and 5% water. Part of our testing included static tank test, aka fuel sitting in the tank for extended periods of time without use or agitation. The highest water absorbtion we saw was 5% during a hot, rainy Texas summer. Since the ethanol distributes the water, you don't have to worry about water destroying your fuel tank or vapor locking the engine. Our tested used E85 (85% ethanol 15% denaturing chemicals). We then added water (at 5% incriments) into the fuel tank and ran the engine for 5 hours, mimicing all phases of flight. We did go up to 15% water before we started hitting peak EGT before backing off on the throttle. In short, your fuel tank isn't going to allow enough water vapor in the air to pass into the tank and be absorbed to the point of causing noticeable changes. If there is that much water, someone poured it into the tank. Chris - E85/E90 is what we considered 100% during our testing, because it was 100% ethanol fuel with no 100LL in the tanks. Fuel manufacturers are required by law to add denaturing chemicals to the ethanol fuel so you can't give your car/airplane a gallon and a gallon for yourself. - In all my testing and the research that had been previously done, I couldn't find anything connecting vapor lock with ethanol use. I will state, we did have issues with start up in extremely cold temperatures (subzero Farenheit), which was countered with a fuel heater. So, probably not a great fuel for Alaskan winters. - For corrosion, we did multiple test to include common aircraft metals and composite materials. Ethanol does a great job cleaning steel (our 5,000gal steel fuel cell had no corrosion when inspected at the 5 year mark. It even cleaned the rust off of a chain that was dropped into the tank.). It does eat alluminum, but anodizing protects the alluminum components. We slosh anodized our Cessna tanks and saw no problems. With the composites, we used E-glass and Aeropoxy resin, gel coat, and carbon fiber. We saw no reaction to any composite materials during the 5 year testing. Bill - Most auto "flex fuels" are tuned to run on 87 octane, which further drives people away. NASCAR and INDY do run ethanol due to it's benefits. It also makes fuel spill clean up a lot easier. E90 and E85 are becoming more popular, but if you are in an area that has either, you could use it. One of the reasons for our testing between different ethanol and 100LL testing was for availability reasons. Say someone is able to fly at their home airport on ethanol, but was not able to find it during a cross country. You wouldn't know the exact ratio. So we tested at 10% incriments betwen 100% ethanol fuel (E85) to 100% 100LL. There were no changes in performance, outside of what we expected due to fuel flow and horsepower changes that happen between the fuels.
