KR> switch labeling - Actually Fuel Pumps.

[Daniel Heath]

I had the pumps on a separate switch and a separate breaker.  I ran both
pumps all the time.  If one had ever failed, I would not have known it until
the next start up.



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Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

KR> switch labeling

[Paul Visk]

I got the switch that Mark replaced it with.


Paul Visk?Belleville IL ?618 406 4705
Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4

 Original message 
From: Larry Flesner via KRnet  
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 08/20/2016  3:54 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: KRnet  
Cc: Larry Flesner  
Subject: Re: KR> switch labeling 

At 03:33 PM 8/20/2016, you wrote:
>That is why I followed Mark's design. One flip of the switch, changes
>ignition, fuel pump and battery.

++

If that's the design, I'd certainly want a VERY RELIABLE "one" 
switch.? Is that the switch that failed on Mark (on the ground, 
thankfully) that kept him from making the California trip?

Larry Flesner

KR> switch labeling

[PPaulVsk at aol.com]

That is why I followed Mark's design. One flip of the switch, changes  
ignition, fuel pump and battery. If  it doesn't restart look for  a place to 
land.

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618 406 4705   


QW Saote:
>Yea, I know, think of that and flip the switch...you  hope!  Trust 
>me, it gets awful foggy when the prop  stops.

KR> switch labeling

[Larry Flesner]

At 03:33 PM 8/20/2016, you wrote:
>That is why I followed Mark's design. One flip of the switch, changes
>ignition, fuel pump and battery.

++

If that's the design, I'd certainly want a VERY RELIABLE "one" 
switch.  Is that the switch that failed on Mark (on the ground, 
thankfully) that kept him from making the California trip?

Larry Flesner
flesner at frontier.com

KR> switch labeling

[Larry Flesner]

At 01:00 PM 8/20/2016, you wrote:
>Yea, I know, think of that and flip the switch...you hope!  Trust 
>me, it gets awful foggy when the prop stops.
++

I can't imagine having the presence of mind to use a checklist if my 
engine quits.  Systems should be simple and all switches well labeled 
( https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32133949/IMG_8619.JPG ) .

The one time I lost my main electrical buss it only required the flip 
of one switch (on the red panel) to keep me in the air.  At that 
point I had plenty of time to consider options.

If my engine goes dead I only need to remember to turn off the 
"master" (that shuts off everything electrical in the aircraft) and 
shut off the fuel.  I shouldn't need a check list for that and can 
accomplish that 10 seconds before touchdown.  If you have time after 
an engine failure,  a check list with items like "carb heat / 
alternate air", "fuel tank selector", "ignition source", and the like 
might be a good memory jogger but in the end "shut off master" and 
"shut off fuel" are the critical items.   In my case the "master" is 
the last thing to switch off as it kills everything including radio, 
GPS, etc..

Larry Flesner
flesner at frontier.com 

KR> switch labeling

[Craig Williams]

Good that's exactly my thinking.  Many crashes have been caused by confusion or
just BAD design (John Denver fuel selector).  I know whats what in my plane but
the next poor SAP should not have to figure it out in an emergency.  By the way
I will use that switch to prime and start the engine and then it gets turned
off.


Craig


> On August 20, 2016 at 1:30 PM Mark Langford via KRnet  list.krnet.org>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Craig Williams wrote:
> 
> > My second switch is to bypass all that and provide a ground to run
> > the pumps when priming and starting and if the oil pressure switch
> > was to fail. How would you label thatswitch?
> 
> "Emergency Pump".  You need it to be as clear as possible when you or 
> the guy who flies it later needs it, and only has 2% of their wits about 
> them due to the prop stopping!
> 
> You realize that you won't have any fuel pressure until the engine turns 
> over enough to trip the oil pressure switch, right?  That's going to 
> prolong starting.  Personally, I'd use a VW fuel pump relay, which has a 
> connection to the coil and powers the fuel pump during cranking and also

KR> switch labeling

[Mark Langford]

One more thing on this.   The engine will continue to run for a few 
(maybe five) minutes with NO oil pressure.  It would be a shame to have 
to put it in a field or in the woods because the fuel pump quit because 
oil pressure dropped below whatever the min oil pressure the switch 
breaks contact.  Yea, I know, think of that and flip the switch...you 
hope!  Trust me, it gets awful foggy when the prop stops.  Also, oil 
pressure switches normally trigger a tiny light or an electronic 
circuit, and fuel pumps (Facets) draw about .8A.  Make sure it has beefy 
contacts on it, and again...I hope you remember...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> switch labeling

[Flesner]

At 11:54 AM 8/20/2016, you wrote:
>Ok, so I have my fuel system installed and I am wiring the pumps.

+

A small LED next to the switch for a visual indication the switch is 
on is also nice.

Larry Flesner
flesner at frontier.com

KR> switch labeling

[Craig Williams]

Ok, so I have my fuel system installed and I am wiring the pumps.  They will
have voltage all the time and the ground will be selected to each pump as it is
selected with a spdt switch.  That switch is labeled "pump 1 and pump 2".  That
ground comes from my 5psi oil switch.  So that the pump selected will only run
when the engine is running and producing oil pressure.  My second switch is to
bypass all that and provide a ground to run the pumps when priming and starting
and if the oil pressure switch was to fail.  How would you label that switch?

pump bypass
emergency pump
fuel pump on
ground use only
pump bkup power

Thanks
Craig

KR> switch labeling

[Mark Langford]

Craig Williams wrote:

> My second switch is to bypass all that and provide a ground to run
> the pumps when priming and starting and if the oil pressure switch
> was to fail. How would you label thatswitch?

"Emergency Pump".  You need it to be as clear as possible when you or 
the guy who flies it later needs it, and only has 2% of their wits about 
them due to the prop stopping!

You realize that you won't have any fuel pressure until the engine turns 
over enough to trip the oil pressure switch, right?  That's going to 
prolong starting.  Personally, I'd use a VW fuel pump relay, which has a 
connection to the coil and powers the fuel pump during cranking and also 
disconnects it when the engine quits (crash).

And for those who think they'll switch the pumps off before they crash, 
these things happen quickly and when I glided for 15 minutes into a 
beanfield, I not only didn't think to turn the pumps off, but I also 
didn't think to shut the fuel petcock off.  Yep, I should of had a 
checklist for that!  I was concentrating on getting the thing on the 
ground safely.  There's more info on this setup at the bottom of 
http://www.n56ml.com/fuel/index.html ...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com