Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Follow-up on en_US changes
Hi Jesper, Le 04/12/2014 00:58, Jesper Hertel a écrit : Bonsoir Sophie, 2014-12-01 14:57 GMT+01:00 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com: Hi all, Opening a new thread on the changes on the en_US version, I propose to follow-up on the project@ list so we could associate the developers and design teams and discuss together how to handle that in our workflow. Some changes are necessary and the en_US version has to be maintained too but that shouldn't have an impact or at least, as limited as possible on the l10n work. For some reason I don't completely catch what you are saying, but I guess it is something along the lines that we should have a specific discussion forum for the en_US (American English, the original text) version? Or maybe a discussion about whether we should have a separate discussion forum? I do believe discussing the English strings are somewhat related to the translation of them, so maybe because of that I fail to see a very sharp division between them and the localization. The English strings are, in principle, also a type of localization, I would say. They just have a much higher authority, as they become the authoritative source for the rest of the localizations. English strings come from different teams in the community, mostly from developers and UX/Design teams, sometimes QA when they see small things to fix quickly. The l10n team is the one who review the English strings and who is the most impacted by their quality (before the user) and the workload when they are changed. When we want to discuss something that has an interest for several teams, we have a cross team list, the projects@ list. I believe that the developer should be aware, as well as the UX team that if they want to make large changes to the English string, that will have a huge impact on the l10n team and they have to take care of how those changes are applied (spread over the branches, create scripts, etc.) I'm not sure it's the good moment to open the discussion now because we are all catching dead lines, Yeah, and maybe what I wrote above is in some way also part of that discussion that we probably should not take now? If so, you don't have to respond to my comment now. but I propose to do it Does do it mean start the discussion, or are you referring to something else? yes, that mean starting the discussion on the projects@list on week 2 next year, after the hard code freeze for 4.4.0. Is it ok for you all? Fine with me. :-) if yes, I'll open a ticket on Redmine. Très bien, Sophie! merci :) Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Co-founder - Release coordinator The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Follow-up on en_US changes
Þann mið 3.des 2014 23:58, skrifaði Jesper Hertel: Bonsoir Sophie, 2014-12-01 14:57 GMT+01:00 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com: Opening a new thread on the changes on the en_US version, I propose to follow-up on the project@ list so we could associate the developers and design teams and discuss together how to handle that in our workflow. Some changes are necessary and the en_US version has to be maintained too but that shouldn't have an impact or at least, as limited as possible on the l10n work. For some reason I don't completely catch what you are saying, but I guess it is something along the lines that we should have a specific discussion forum for the en_US (American English, the original text) version? Or maybe a discussion about whether we should have a separate discussion forum? I read this as 'delaying' the discussion on how to correct source texts (en_US) until after 4.4.0 and do it in a separate thread. I do believe discussing the English strings are somewhat related to the translation of them, so maybe because of that I fail to see a very sharp division between them and the localization. The English strings are, in principle, also a type of localization, I would say. They just have a much higher authority, as they become the authoritative source for the rest of the localizations. I'd say that catching errors in source texts (en_US) is a vital process of QA for the source code - translators happen to be in the front line for that kind of work. I'm not sure it's the good moment to open the discussion now because we are all catching dead lines, Yes, but... (see below) Yeah, and maybe what I wrote above is in some way also part of that discussion that we probably should not take now? If so, you don't have to respond to my comment now. but I propose to do it Does do it mean start the discussion, or are you referring to something else? on week 2 next year, after the hard code freeze for 4.4.0. Is it ok for you all? Fine with me. :-) But, to avoid pissing off all the translators because of typographical corrections (I'm all for it; there are even more types of corrections possible [1] than those which have been mentioned so far...), maybe the good moment is to do this work _before_ setting up next branch in Pootle? I mean, to batch-replace triple-dots for proper ellipsis in source and in the translations that support it - in the places where UTF-8 is supported - could possibly be done outside of Pootle without giving new fuzzies, isn't it? Typographical quotes and correction of straight apostrophes are rather only for the source and English derivatives, and should be done without fuzzying the translations. Please. Is there a better opportunity to do such work than before next branching? Best regards, Sveinn í Felli if yes, I'll open a ticket on Redmine. Très bien, Sophie! Cheers Sophie Santé Jesper [1]: Extermination of double-spaces between sentences is one; lengthy discussions can easily develop on the subject: http://lists.scribus.net/pipermail/scribus/2014-November/051136.html Other topics may be of interest e.g. on difference of typograpy on paper vs. screen. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Follow-up on en_US changes
Hi Sveinn, Le 04/12/2014 09:21, Sveinn í Felli a écrit : Þann mið 3.des 2014 23:58, skrifaði Jesper Hertel: Bonsoir Sophie, 2014-12-01 14:57 GMT+01:00 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com: Opening a new thread on the changes on the en_US version, I propose to follow-up on the project@ list so we could associate the developers and design teams and discuss together how to handle that in our workflow. Some changes are necessary and the en_US version has to be maintained too but that shouldn't have an impact or at least, as limited as possible on the l10n work. For some reason I don't completely catch what you are saying, but I guess it is something along the lines that we should have a specific discussion forum for the en_US (American English, the original text) version? Or maybe a discussion about whether we should have a separate discussion forum? I read this as 'delaying' the discussion on how to correct source texts (en_US) until after 4.4.0 and do it in a separate thread. yes, we won't get developers' attention before the code freeze and they are concerned by the discussion. I do believe discussing the English strings are somewhat related to the translation of them, so maybe because of that I fail to see a very sharp division between them and the localization. The English strings are, in principle, also a type of localization, I would say. They just have a much higher authority, as they become the authoritative source for the rest of the localizations. I'd say that catching errors in source texts (en_US) is a vital process of QA for the source code - translators happen to be in the front line for that kind of work. yes, but it's not only translators who should be involved in the process. I'm not sure it's the good moment to open the discussion now because we are all catching dead lines, Yes, but... (see below) Yeah, and maybe what I wrote above is in some way also part of that discussion that we probably should not take now? If so, you don't have to respond to my comment now. but I propose to do it Does do it mean start the discussion, or are you referring to something else? on week 2 next year, after the hard code freeze for 4.4.0. Is it ok for you all? Fine with me. :-) But, to avoid pissing off all the translators because of typographical corrections (I'm all for it; there are even more types of corrections possible [1] than those which have been mentioned so far...), maybe the good moment is to do this work _before_ setting up next branch in Pootle? the next branch in Pootle will be for 4.5.0 unless we change the workflow to have it on master. The next source code branching will be week 2 for 4.4.0 and week 6 for 4.4.1. It's already too late for 4.4.0 but once the branching is done for it, it will be easier to have a cross teams discussion. I mean, to batch-replace triple-dots for proper ellipsis in source and in the translations that support it - in the places where UTF-8 is supported - could possibly be done outside of Pootle without giving new fuzzies, isn't it? yes, I think so :) Typographical quotes and correction of straight apostrophes are rather only for the source and English derivatives, and should be done without fuzzying the translations. Please. Is there a better opportunity to do such work than before next branching? I agree with you and I hope that we will have something in place before April. Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Co-founder - Release coordinator The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Follow-up on en_US changes
Bonsoir Sophie, 2014-12-01 14:57 GMT+01:00 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com: Hi all, Opening a new thread on the changes on the en_US version, I propose to follow-up on the project@ list so we could associate the developers and design teams and discuss together how to handle that in our workflow. Some changes are necessary and the en_US version has to be maintained too but that shouldn't have an impact or at least, as limited as possible on the l10n work. For some reason I don't completely catch what you are saying, but I guess it is something along the lines that we should have a specific discussion forum for the en_US (American English, the original text) version? Or maybe a discussion about whether we should have a separate discussion forum? I do believe discussing the English strings are somewhat related to the translation of them, so maybe because of that I fail to see a very sharp division between them and the localization. The English strings are, in principle, also a type of localization, I would say. They just have a much higher authority, as they become the authoritative source for the rest of the localizations. I'm not sure it's the good moment to open the discussion now because we are all catching dead lines, Yeah, and maybe what I wrote above is in some way also part of that discussion that we probably should not take now? If so, you don't have to respond to my comment now. but I propose to do it Does do it mean start the discussion, or are you referring to something else? on week 2 next year, after the hard code freeze for 4.4.0. Is it ok for you all? Fine with me. :-) if yes, I'll open a ticket on Redmine. Très bien, Sophie! Cheers Sophie Santé Jesper -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Follow-up on en_US changes
I may be completely misunderstanding this, but it seems to me the point is the en_US strings should be translations as well. That would put much needed damper on the changes introduced just because they can be introduced. As a secondary gain, translations are (hopefully) created by folks with at least some native language preparation; right now master strings which anybody can write -- as I know from my own practice and from this list -- may be awkward in expression and/or convoluted in meaning (fixing which creates more work for everybody). Yury On 12/04/2014 02:58 AM, Jesper Hertel wrote: 2014-12-01 14:57 GMT+01:00 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com: ... Some changes are necessary and the en_US version has to be maintained too but that shouldn't have an impact or at least, as limited as possible on the l10n work. I do believe discussing the English strings are somewhat related to the translation of them, so maybe because of that I fail to see a very sharp division between them and the localization. The English strings are, in principle, also a type of localization, I would say. They just have a much higher authority, as they become the authoritative source for the rest of the localizations. ... Yury -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Follow-up on en_US changes
IMO bad quality of English strings can be improved by having some l10m teams work on Master (and spotting these bad strings early enough), and that is being discussed in parallel. Also, perhaps requiring string reviews on patches with new or changed strings could be an option. I'm pretty sure we could find someone to gladly do these reviews within the community. :-) Rimas On 2014 m. gruodis 4 d. 08:06:12 EET, Yury Tarasievich yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com wrote: I may be completely misunderstanding this, but it seems to me the point is the en_US strings should be translations as well. That would put much needed damper on the changes introduced just because they can be introduced. As a secondary gain, translations are (hopefully) created by folks with at least some native language preparation; right now master strings which anybody can write -- as I know from my own practice and from this list -- may be awkward in expression and/or convoluted in meaning (fixing which creates more work for everybody). Yury On 12/04/2014 02:58 AM, Jesper Hertel wrote: 2014-12-01 14:57 GMT+01:00 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com: ... Some changes are necessary and the en_US version has to be maintained too but that shouldn't have an impact or at least, as limited as possible on the l10n work. I do believe discussing the English strings are somewhat related to the translation of them, so maybe because of that I fail to see a very sharp division between them and the localization. The English strings are, in principle, also a type of localization, I would say. They just have a much higher authority, as they become the authoritative source for the rest of the localizations. ... Yury -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Rimas -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Follow-up on en_US changes
Hi all, Opening a new thread on the changes on the en_US version, I propose to follow-up on the project@ list so we could associate the developers and design teams and discuss together how to handle that in our workflow. Some changes are necessary and the en_US version has to be maintained too but that shouldn't have an impact or at least, as limited as possible on the l10n work. I'm not sure it's the good moment to open the discussion now because we are all catching dead lines, but I propose to do it on week 2 next year, after the hard code freeze for 4.4.0. Is it ok for you all? if yes, I'll open a ticket on Redmine. Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Co-founder - Release coordinator The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
