Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Niklas Johansson]

Hello

I wanted to give some clarification as to why I wanted to consider a 
name change of the paragraph style "Title". First of all, let me say 
that I don't really have an issue with the descriptiveness of the name. 
It is the name that is used by programs as Microsoft Word, Pages (from 
Apple), and others.


If we can get a check in Pootle for this issue, I think that might be 
enough. We should not change the names of the styles if we don't have 
really good reason for doing it.


Before this release something must have happened to trigger the 
"retranslation" of the style name "Title". Now something made Pootle 
"think" that Rubrik (Heading, in english) was the word I was looking 
for. The time I can spend on translating is limited and at a glance, it 
looked like a safe translation, thus I accepted the change without 
looking to closely at it. Having a more specific name for the style such 
as Main Title (compare to Subtitle) or Document title would make it 
easier for Pootle to give me the correct translation from the start. It 
would also make it easier for me, as a translator, to know how to 
translate the string in the first place.


I repeat, if we get a check for this I'm perfectly fine leaving the name 
as it is.


Regards,
Niklas

Niklas Johansson wrote 2013-07-23 11:11:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it be a good idea to 
change the English string from Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to 
call it Main Title in English?


The string Title is used a lot in the UI and at it seems that other 
languages than Swedish has the problem that we need to translate the 
word differently in different places.


If the string was called Main Title this problem would not have crept 
in (at least not in my language).


It's probably a bit late to change it for 4.1 but does anybody see a 
reason not to change it for 4.2?


/Niklas



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

My cryptic point is: the terse string 'Title' 
(having ID *_TITEL) in this particular case is 
not only uninformative, but also is capable of 
producing an error after translation.


Hence, it'd be good not only to obtain 
divergence of English originals for this and for 
*_HEADLINE_BASE, but also to put into *_TITEL 
something more informative.


Therefore, suggestions to the tune of 'Name of 
the document' or even 'Heading of the document' 
(to clearly indicate it's not about filename, 
but about some sort of key entry).


BTW, Help, at least in 3.6.7, contains precious 
nothing on this string.


-Yury


On 07/23/2013 08:50 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Yury Tarasievich
 wrote:

'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- all these are good and bad.


No - in this context "Name of the document" is simply wrong for either
of the two strings.

And honestly: What is your point? You throw in random strings from
other places, but I seriously fail to see your point.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Yury Tarasievich
 wrote:
> 'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- all these are good and bad.

No - in this context "Name of the document" is simply wrong for either
of the two strings.

And honestly: What is your point? You throw in random strings from
other places, but I seriously fail to see your point.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- 
all these are good and bad. That string (being 
the label for the 1st field on the 2nd tab 
'Description' in Document properties) is too 
vague in its purpose and use, anyway. And it 
seems it's a rudiment from times of restrictive 
filenames, never set deliberately.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 04:46 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:



2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
mailto:yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com>>

Better comprehensibility would also be good.
The "Title->Name of the document" variant
might also be considered for (2).


I don´t think so as Christian explained:

"The TITEL one is for the Document Title, The
title of a book that
usually only appears once at the beginning/on
the cover of the
document, or also used as chapter title."

So if this is document title, it´s not de
document name. That might even be confuse
because of I also understand "Name of document"
as "Filename".

Regards


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 02:42 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
 Actually, I mean changing both:
 1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
 2) Title -> Document title
If the only problem is same translation for
"Heading" and "Title" my proposal is
change only
"Title" to "Document Title". The other
should
stay as is.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Sérgio Marques]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich 

> Better comprehensibility would also be good.
> The "Title->Name of the document" variant might also be considered for (2).
>

I don´t think so as Christian explained:

"The TITEL one is for the Document Title, The title of a book that
usually only appears once at the beginning/on the cover of the
document, or also used as chapter title."

So if this is document title, it´s not de document name. That might even be
confuse because of I also understand "Name of document" as "Filename".

Regards


>
> -Yury
>
> On 07/23/2013 02:42 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
>
>> 2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
>> Actually, I mean changing both:
>> 1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
>> 2) Title -> Document title
>> If the only problem is same translation for
>> "Heading" and "Title" my proposal is change only
>> "Title" to "Document Title". The other should
>> stay as is.
>>
> ...
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

Better comprehensibility would also be good.
The "Title->Name of the document" variant might 
also be considered for (2).


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 02:42 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
2) Title -> Document title
If the only problem is same translation for
"Heading" and "Title" my proposal is change only
"Title" to "Document Title". The other should
stay as is.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Sérgio Marques]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich 

> Actually, I mean changing both:
> 1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
> 2) Title -> Document title
>

If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
as is.

Regards


>
> And yes, other root (not-for-end-user) styles might be changed on the
> lines of (1), too. Wouldn't hurt, would reduce confusion. However, such
> change would quite an undertaking, as the basic set of stylenames is
> hardcoded in source. I don't see it happening...
>
> -Yury
>
> On 07/23/2013 12:54 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:
>
>> Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
>> The style thats called Title is not the base
>> style of the headings, it's rather the
>> document/book title.
>> Since there are other styles based on Heading
>> could we run into trouble if we change the name?
>>
>> If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then
>> what about other styles that serve as "base
>> styles"?
>> For example: Index, Caption, List.
>> Other base styles that is used more as a normal
>> styles includes Text body, Table Contents.
>>
>> Should it be a question for UX-advise?
>>
>> /Niklas
>>
>> Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:
>>
>>> Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of
>>> "Heading Base Style".
>>>
>>> -Yury
>>>
>>> On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:
>>>
 Hi

 For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
 be a good idea to change the English string from
 Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

>>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Ah, i didn't realise this thread was about a particular problem that has 
happened!  

Please ignore my previous posts in this thread!
Apols and regards from 
Tom :





>
> From: Sophie 
>To: l10n@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Monday, 22 July 2013, 21:22
>Subject: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header 
>in various l10n
> 
>
>
>Hi all,
>So here is the answer coming from Christian, it seems that lot of us are 
>affected by this bug. I hope we will have a rc4 where we will be able to 
>have it corrected, but I'm not sure however it's important enough to 
>stop a release. Anyway, please fix for translation asap as it's 
>corrupting documents, the sooner it's fixed, the better. Even if it 
>doesn't make it in 4.1.0 (and it's not a production version), 4.1.1 is 
>next month. What I really don't like is the poor quality it renders for 
>our translation.
>Kind regards
>Sophie
> Message original 
>Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
>Date : Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:39:25 +0200
>De : Christian Lohmaier 
>Pour : Sophie 
>Copie à : libreoffice-dev 
>
>Hi Sophie, *,
>
>On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Sophie  wrote:
>>
>> I've seen this patch
>> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994
>>
>> correcting this issue for French
>> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093
>>
>> But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests made by
>> the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)
>
>I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
>the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.
>
>(13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.
>
>> The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
>> modified.
>> Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a head
>> up on the l10n list?
>
>after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
>, the following languages still have the problem:
>
>egrep -A3 "(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)"
>*/sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
>be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Загаловак"
>bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
>bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
>bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ཁ་བྱང་།"
>bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
>hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
>id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Judul"
>kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "मथळो"
>ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "제목"
>mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "মিংথোল"
>mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Гарчиг"
>my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ခေါင်းစဉ်"
>ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Overskrift"
>oc/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Títol"
>om/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Mataduree"
>or/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ଶୀର୍ଷକ"
>sa-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षकः"
>sid/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Umo"
>tg/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Сарлавҳа"
>ug/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ماۋزۇ"
>
>kl and ky don't have a translation. So that leaves 23 languages where
>the strings are the same.
>
>List of languages:
>
>be bn-IN bn bo bs hi hr id kok ko mai mni mn my ne nn oc om or sa-IN sid 
>tg ug
>
>ciao
>Christian
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a particular language 
has had it's translations broken or corrupted in some way.  Obviously the 
example of "French" was a bit daft because the French translation is always 
excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good example of when a veto might 
be needed or might have been good.  You always seem to fix any problems.  
Perhaps having a formal veto option "written up" as a rule might encourage the 
very problem it's trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :)  





>
> From: Sophie 
>To: Martin Srebotnjak  
>Cc: l10n@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Monday, 22 July 2013, 21:56
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and 
>Header in various l10n
> 
>
>Le 22/07/2013 22:26, Martin Srebotnjak a écrit :
>> I do believe that l10n language leaders should have a right to veto
>> the release in certain language (i.e. yes, you can have 4.1.0, but
>> without French packages etc.).
>
>Yes I agree with you
>
>> So the first release gets released, but no damage is made to a certain
>> language community.
>
>Well, I don't like it in fact, I want my language to be part of the 
>release party ;) So I prefer we be all together to release our version.
>
>Kind regards
>Sophie
>>
>> Lp, m.
>>
>> 2013/7/22 Sophie :
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> So here is the answer coming from Christian, it seems that lot of us are
>>> affected by this bug. I hope we will have a rc4 where we will be able to
>>> have it corrected, but I'm not sure however it's important enough to stop a
>>> release. Anyway, please fix for translation asap as it's corrupting
>>> documents, the sooner it's fixed, the better. Even if it doesn't make it in
>>> 4.1.0 (and it's not a production version), 4.1.1 is next month. What I
>>> really don't like is the poor quality it renders for our translation.
>>> Kind regards
>>> Sophie
>>>  Message original 
>>> Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
>>> Date : Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:39:25 +0200
>>> De : Christian Lohmaier 
>>> Pour : Sophie 
>>> Copie à : libreoffice-dev 
>>>
>>> Hi Sophie, *,
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Sophie  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've seen this patch
>>>> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994
>>>>
>>>> correcting this issue for French
>>>> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093
>>>>
>>>> But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests made
>>>> by
>>>> the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)
>>>
>>>
>>> I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
>>> the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.
>>>
>>> (13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.
>>>
>>>> The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
>>>> modified.
>>>> Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a head
>>>> up on the l10n list?
>>>
>>>
>>> after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
>>> , the following languages still have the problem:
>>>
>>> egrep -A3 "(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)"
>>> */sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
>>> be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Загаловак"
>>> bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
>>> bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
>>> bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ཁ་བྱང་།"
>>> bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
>>> hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>>> hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
>>> id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Judul"
>>> kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "मथळो"
>>> ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "제목"
>>> mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>>> mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "মিংথোল"
>>> mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Гарчиг"
>>> my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ခေါင်းစဉ်"
>>> ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>>> nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Overskrift"
>>> oc/sw/source

Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Tom Davies]

Hi ~:)
Errr, not sure if this is relevant but the Docs Team have talked about getting 
rid of all their non-standard 'newly' named styles and get right back down to 
just using the defaults.  The 'new' ones have names such as "ooo-heading1" so 
you can see why i'm being a bit sarcastic about the word "new"!  However their 
team is not large enough to do more than just work through the official user 
guides so i don't see anything that radical happening any time soon.
Regards from 
Tom :)  





>
> From: Yury Tarasievich 
>To: l10n@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Tuesday, 23 July 2013, 11:25
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and 
>Header in various l10n
> 
>
>Actually, I mean changing both:
>1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
>2) Title -> Document title
>
>And yes, other root (not-for-end-user) styles 
>might be changed on the lines of (1), too. 
>Wouldn't hurt, would reduce confusion. However, 
>such change would quite an undertaking, as the 
>basic set of stylenames is hardcoded in source. 
>I don't see it happening...
>
>-Yury
>
>On 07/23/2013 12:54 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:
>> Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
>> The style thats called Title is not the base
>> style of the headings, it's rather the
>> document/book title.
>> Since there are other styles based on Heading
>> could we run into trouble if we change the name?
>>
>> If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then
>> what about other styles that serve as "base
>> styles"?
>> For example: Index, Caption, List.
>> Other base styles that is used more as a normal
>> styles includes Text body, Table Contents.
>>
>> Should it be a question for UX-advise?
>>
>> /Niklas
>>
>> Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:
>>> Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of
>>> "Heading Base Style".
>>>
>>> -Yury
>>>
>>> On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
>>>> be a good idea to change the English string from
>>>> Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it
>>> ...
>>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
2) Title -> Document title

And yes, other root (not-for-end-user) styles 
might be changed on the lines of (1), too. 
Wouldn't hurt, would reduce confusion. However, 
such change would quite an undertaking, as the 
basic set of stylenames is hardcoded in source. 
I don't see it happening...


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:54 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
The style thats called Title is not the base
style of the headings, it's rather the
document/book title.
Since there are other styles based on Heading
could we run into trouble if we change the name?

If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then
what about other styles that serve as "base
styles"?
For example: Index, Caption, List.
Other base styles that is used more as a normal
styles includes Text body, Table Contents.

Should it be a question for UX-advise?

/Niklas

Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of
"Heading Base Style".

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...






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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Niklas Johansson]

Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
The style thats called Title is not the base style of the headings, it's 
rather the document/book title.
Since there are other styles based on Heading could we run into trouble 
if we change the name?


If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then what about other styles 
that serve as "base styles"?

For example: Index, Caption, List.
Other base styles that is used more as a normal styles includes Text 
body, Table Contents.


Should it be a question for UX-advise?

/Niklas

Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of "Heading Base Style".

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of 
"Heading Base Style".


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Niklas Johansson]

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it be a good idea to change 
the English string from Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it 
Main Title in English?


The string Title is used a lot in the UI and at it seems that other 
languages than Swedish has the problem that we need to translate the 
word differently in different places.


If the string was called Main Title this problem would not have crept in 
(at least not in my language).


It's probably a bit late to change it for 4.1 but does anybody see a 
reason not to change it for 4.2?


/Niklas

PS. I'm sorry for sending this twice to you Sophie, pressed the wrong 
button and sent it directly to you before. :(



Sophie skrev 2013-07-22 22:50:

Hi Mihovil,
Le 22/07/2013 22:40, Mihovil Stanic a écrit :

Read whole bug report and still not sure what should I do here.
Heading = Naslov
Title = Naslov


You must keep the previous translation for Heading (4.0 and 4.1beta1 
was ok) and find another one for Title. For French, we have moved to 
[Main Title] to differentiate it from [Heading].


So both words translate same in croatian and I guess that is part of
problem??


yes, for all of us
I can try to change translation on one of those strings but it will 
look

bad in UI.


The problem is that it will corrupt the styles in the document and 
user may lose some data.


Even if I change it, RC3 is out and 4.1 full will probably be released
from RC3 so translations won't be picked up at all until 4.1.1 RC1.


Yes, as I said, I'm not happy with that.
Cheers
Sophie










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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Mihovil Stanic]

Kruno had better suggestion:
"Header style" insted of Header, so insted of Naslov, now it's "Stil 
naslova" which isn't incorrect and will not confuse users.


Best regards,
Mihovil

Dana 23.7.2013. 10:05, Krunoslav Šebetić je napisao:

On 07/23/2013 07:58 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Mihovil Stanic
 wrote:
Changed Heading from "Naslov" to "Glavni naslov" and marked it fuzzy 
so I

know to return it back when this gets fixed.
Title keept old translation "Naslov".

FYI: in an old copy of the translation hr used
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Zaglavlje"
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
Well now we have "Zaglavlje" for "Header", it's not a syle and maybe 
it can be reused for styles to but  we try to be consistent in 
terminology, I like Mihovil's solution more. Think that "Zaglavlje" is 
not a way to go.


Kruno




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Krunoslav Šebetić]

On 07/23/2013 07:58 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Mihovil Stanic
 wrote:

Changed Heading from "Naslov" to "Glavni naslov" and marked it fuzzy so I
know to return it back when this gets fixed.
Title keept old translation "Naslov".

FYI: in an old copy of the translation hr used
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Zaglavlje"
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
Well now we have "Zaglavlje" for "Header", it's not a syle and maybe it 
can be reused for styles to but  we try to be consistent in terminology, 
I like Mihovil's solution more. Think that "Zaglavlje" is not a way to go.


Kruno

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

The change I suggested sounds better in, well, 
East Slavonic languages.


Come to think of it, and thanks for reminding, 
the *_TITEL one also might be usefully expanded 
to smth. like "Showname of the document".


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 08:57 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi Yury, *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Yury Tarasievich
 wrote:

Just change the *_HEADLINE_BASE one to something like "*, main one".
You do not commonly use that style from UI, anyway, that's the root node for
the headings settings.


Yes, but "main one" is misleading and IMHO wrong.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Mihovil Stanic
 wrote:
> Changed Heading from "Naslov" to "Glavni naslov" and marked it fuzzy so I
> know to return it back when this gets fixed.
> Title keept old translation "Naslov".

FYI: in an old copy of the translation hr used
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Zaglavlje"
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Yury, *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Yury Tarasievich
 wrote:
> Just change the *_HEADLINE_BASE one to something like "*, main one".
> You do not commonly use that style from UI, anyway, that's the root node for
> the headings settings.

Yes, but "main one" is misleading and IMHO wrong.
You are right that this style usually is not applied, as it is the
basic style for the headings, i.e. the one where you can set common
formatting of your headings, without having to do the changes in every
"heading " style.

The TITEL one is for the Document Title, The title of a book that
usually only appears once at the beginning/on the cover of the
document, or also used as chapter title.

Headings are the styles for creating a hierarchy, usually with subitems.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Mihovil Stanic]

Changed Heading from "Naslov" to "Glavni naslov" and marked it fuzzy so 
I know to return it back when this gets fixed.

Title keept old translation "Naslov".

Best regards,
Mihovil

Dana 23.7.2013. 7:48, Yury Tarasievich je napisao:

Just change the *_HEADLINE_BASE one to something like "*, main one".
You do not commonly use that style from UI, anyway, that's the root 
node for the headings settings.


-Yury

On 07/22/2013 11:40 PM, Mihovil Stanic wrote:
...

I can try to change translation on one of those
strings but it will look bad in UI.

...




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

Just change the *_HEADLINE_BASE one to something 
like "*, main one".
You do not commonly use that style from UI, 
anyway, that's the root node for the headings 
settings.


-Yury

On 07/22/2013 11:40 PM, Mihovil Stanic wrote:
...

I can try to change translation on one of those
strings but it will look bad in UI.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

That's a difficult one to keep track of. With no 
meta-info in POT/PO base. E.g., this has been 
corrected in /be/ "for years", but after the 
recent massive changes sort of crept in again.


Indeed, what do we do now?

-Yury

On 07/22/2013 11:04 PM, Sophie wrote:

egrep -A3
"(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)"

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Sophie]

Le 22/07/2013 22:26, Martin Srebotnjak a écrit :

I do believe that l10n language leaders should have a right to veto
the release in certain language (i.e. yes, you can have 4.1.0, but
without French packages etc.).


Yes I agree with you


So the first release gets released, but no damage is made to a certain
language community.


Well, I don't like it in fact, I want my language to be part of the 
release party ;) So I prefer we be all together to release our version.


Kind regards
Sophie


Lp, m.

2013/7/22 Sophie :


Hi all,
So here is the answer coming from Christian, it seems that lot of us are
affected by this bug. I hope we will have a rc4 where we will be able to
have it corrected, but I'm not sure however it's important enough to stop a
release. Anyway, please fix for translation asap as it's corrupting
documents, the sooner it's fixed, the better. Even if it doesn't make it in
4.1.0 (and it's not a production version), 4.1.1 is next month. What I
really don't like is the poor quality it renders for our translation.
Kind regards
Sophie
 Message original 
Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
Date : Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:39:25 +0200
De : Christian Lohmaier 
Pour : Sophie 
Copie à : libreoffice-dev 

Hi Sophie, *,

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Sophie  wrote:



I've seen this patch
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994

correcting this issue for French
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093

But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests made
by
the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)



I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.

(13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.


The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
modified.
Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a head
up on the l10n list?



after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
, the following languages still have the problem:

egrep -A3 "(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)"
*/sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Загаловак"
bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ཁ་བྱང་།"
bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Judul"
kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "मथळो"
ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "제목"
mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "মিংথোল"
mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Гарчиг"
my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ခေါင်းစဉ်"
ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Overskrift"
oc/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Títol"
om/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Mataduree"
or/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ଶୀର୍ଷକ"
sa-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षकः"
sid/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Umo"
tg/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Сарлавҳа"
ug/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ماۋزۇ"

kl and ky don't have a translation. So that leaves 23 languages where
the strings are the same.

List of languages:

be bn-IN bn bo bs hi hr id kok ko mai mni mn my ne nn oc om or sa-IN sid tg
ug

ciao
Christian



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Sophie]

Hi Mihovil,
Le 22/07/2013 22:40, Mihovil Stanic a écrit :

Read whole bug report and still not sure what should I do here.
Heading = Naslov
Title = Naslov


You must keep the previous translation for Heading (4.0 and 4.1beta1 was 
ok) and find another one for Title. For French, we have moved to [Main 
Title] to differentiate it from [Heading].


So both words translate same in croatian and I guess that is part of
problem??


yes, for all of us

I can try to change translation on one of those strings but it will look
bad in UI.


The problem is that it will corrupt the styles in the document and user 
may lose some data.


Even if I change it, RC3 is out and 4.1 full will probably be released
from RC3 so translations won't be picked up at all until 4.1.1 RC1.


Yes, as I said, I'm not happy with that.
Cheers
Sophie





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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Mihovil Stanic]

Read whole bug report and still not sure what should I do here.
Heading = Naslov
Title = Naslov

So both words translate same in croatian and I guess that is part of 
problem??
I can try to change translation on one of those strings but it will look 
bad in UI.


Even if I change it, RC3 is out and 4.1 full will probably be released 
from RC3 so translations won't be picked up at all until 4.1.1 RC1.


Best regards,
Mihovil

Dana 22.7.2013. 22:22, Sophie je napisao:
Anyway, please fix for translation asap as it's corrupting documents, 
the sooner it's fixed, the better.



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Martin Srebotnjak]

I do believe that l10n language leaders should have a right to veto
the release in certain language (i.e. yes, you can have 4.1.0, but
without French packages etc.).
So the first release gets released, but no damage is made to a certain
language community.

Lp, m.

2013/7/22 Sophie :
>
> Hi all,
> So here is the answer coming from Christian, it seems that lot of us are
> affected by this bug. I hope we will have a rc4 where we will be able to
> have it corrected, but I'm not sure however it's important enough to stop a
> release. Anyway, please fix for translation asap as it's corrupting
> documents, the sooner it's fixed, the better. Even if it doesn't make it in
> 4.1.0 (and it's not a production version), 4.1.1 is next month. What I
> really don't like is the poor quality it renders for our translation.
> Kind regards
> Sophie
>  Message original 
> Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
> Date : Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:39:25 +0200
> De : Christian Lohmaier 
> Pour : Sophie 
> Copie à : libreoffice-dev 
>
> Hi Sophie, *,
>
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Sophie  wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've seen this patch
>> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994
>>
>> correcting this issue for French
>> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093
>>
>> But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests made
>> by
>> the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)
>
>
> I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
> the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.
>
> (13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.
>
>> The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
>> modified.
>> Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a head
>> up on the l10n list?
>
>
> after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
> , the following languages still have the problem:
>
> egrep -A3 "(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)"
> */sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
> be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Загаловак"
> bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
> bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
> bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ཁ་བྱང་།"
> bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
> hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
> hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
> id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Judul"
> kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "मथळो"
> ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "제목"
> mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
> mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "মিংথোল"
> mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Гарчиг"
> my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ခေါင်းစဉ်"
> ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
> nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Overskrift"
> oc/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Títol"
> om/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Mataduree"
> or/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ଶୀର୍ଷକ"
> sa-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षकः"
> sid/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Umo"
> tg/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Сарлавҳа"
> ug/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ماۋزۇ"
>
> kl and ky don't have a translation. So that leaves 23 languages where
> the strings are the same.
>
> List of languages:
>
> be bn-IN bn bo bs hi hr id kok ko mai mni mn my ne nn oc om or sa-IN sid tg
> ug
>
> ciao
> Christian
>
>
>
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[libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Sophie]

Hi all,
So here is the answer coming from Christian, it seems that lot of us are 
affected by this bug. I hope we will have a rc4 where we will be able to 
have it corrected, but I'm not sure however it's important enough to 
stop a release. Anyway, please fix for translation asap as it's 
corrupting documents, the sooner it's fixed, the better. Even if it 
doesn't make it in 4.1.0 (and it's not a production version), 4.1.1 is 
next month. What I really don't like is the poor quality it renders for 
our translation.

Kind regards
Sophie
 Message original 
Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
Date : Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:39:25 +0200
De : Christian Lohmaier 
Pour : Sophie 
Copie à : libreoffice-dev 

Hi Sophie, *,

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Sophie  wrote:


I've seen this patch
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994

correcting this issue for French
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093

But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests made by
the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)


I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.

(13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.


The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
modified.
Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a head
up on the l10n list?


after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
, the following languages still have the problem:

egrep -A3 "(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)"
*/sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Загаловак"
bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ཁ་བྱང་།"
bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Judul"
kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "मथळो"
ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "제목"
mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "মিংথোল"
mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Гарчиг"
my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ခေါင်းစဉ်"
ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Overskrift"
oc/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Títol"
om/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Mataduree"
or/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ଶୀର୍ଷକ"
sa-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षकः"
sid/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Umo"
tg/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Сарлавҳа"
ug/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ماۋزۇ"

kl and ky don't have a translation. So that leaves 23 languages where
the strings are the same.

List of languages:

be bn-IN bn bo bs hi hr id kok ko mai mni mn my ne nn oc om or sa-IN sid 
tg ug


ciao
Christian



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Mihovil Stanic]

Hello,

HR is on the list, and I can reproduce it, but I'm not really sure what 
should. :)

I commented mentioned bug and reported that it's affecting hr locale also.
Anything else I should do?

Best regards,
Mihovil

Dana 22.7.2013. 22:04, Sophie je napisao:

Hi all,

I think this has a high of interest for most of you, please note that 
there is some possibility of data loss due to this issue.

Kind regards
Sophie
 Message original 
Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
Date : Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:39:25 +0200
De : Christian Lohmaier 
Pour : Sophie 
Copie à : libreoffice-dev 

Hi Sophie, *,

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Sophie  wrote:


I've seen this patch
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994

correcting this issue for French
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093

But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests 
made by

the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)


I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.

(13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.


The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
modified.
Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a 
head

up on the l10n list?


after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
, the following languages still have the problem:

egrep -A3 "(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)"
*/sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Загаловак"
bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ཁ་བྱང་།"
bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Judul"
kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "मथळो"
ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "제목"
mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "মিংথোল"
mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Гарчиг"
my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ခေါင်းစဉ်"
ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Overskrift"
oc/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Títol"
om/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Mataduree"
or/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ଶୀର୍ଷକ"
sa-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षकः"
sid/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Umo"
tg/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Сарлавҳа"
ug/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ماۋزۇ"

kl and ky don't have a translation. So that leaves 23 languages where
the strings are the same.

List of languages:

be bn-IN bn bo bs hi hr id kok ko mai mni mn my ne nn oc om or sa-IN 
sid tg ug


ciao
Christian






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[libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Sophie]

Hi all,

I think this has a high of interest for most of you, please note that 
there is some possibility of data loss due to this issue.

Kind regards
Sophie
 Message original 
Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
Date : Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:39:25 +0200
De : Christian Lohmaier 
Pour : Sophie 
Copie à : libreoffice-dev 

Hi Sophie, *,

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Sophie  wrote:


I've seen this patch
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994

correcting this issue for French
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093

But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests made by
the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)


I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.

(13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.


The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
modified.
Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a head
up on the l10n list?


after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
, the following languages still have the problem:

egrep -A3 "(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)"
*/sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Загаловак"
bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ཁ་བྱང་།"
bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Judul"
kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "मथळो"
ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "제목"
mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "মিংথোল"
mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Гарчиг"
my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ခေါင်းစဉ်"
ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Overskrift"
oc/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Títol"
om/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Mataduree"
or/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ଶୀର୍ଷକ"
sa-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षकः"
sid/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Umo"
tg/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Сарлавҳа"
ug/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ماۋزۇ"

kl and ky don't have a translation. So that leaves 23 languages where
the strings are the same.

List of languages:

be bn-IN bn bo bs hi hr id kok ko mai mni mn my ne nn oc om or sa-IN sid 
tg ug


ciao
Christian



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