Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
Hi, - Ursprüngliche Nachricht - Von: Jan Holesovsky Gesendet: 04.01.11 16:46 Uhr ... Basically, it suggests what Freek says - having git as the authoritative source, while providing all the strengths of Pootle as Andras explained (xliff, downloading/uploading of tarballs, etc.) An admin with the appropriate rights gets an [Update] button that transparently updates the files from git (should there be changes in git by the translators that commit their changes directly). The page says that there is also possible to trigger commit from the Pootle server, though there are some troubles there; I'll look more. If this works, to me it seems that this is be the best from all the worlds: ... How does that sound? Yes, this would surely be the prefered solution. Some problems that we might run into: - the pootle server process is running under the apache user account on the server, so the commits to vcs will be done using this account. This might be a problem with ssl authentification as used at fdo's git. Commit permissions from the translator's (WebUI) perspective can be set per user, but will be handled by the same system user in the background. - afaik pootle is not prepared to properly handle conflicts (maybe we can get help from translate.za team or we need to define pootle vs. vcs it as either direction solution per language. (Already mentioned by rimas) - performance might be a problem. Currently we use memcached (so translation files, statistics ... are in memory). I experienced delays, when files were flushed to disk or re-read from disk. Ok, nothing that should stop us from providing a good solution, but we need to have a look at. Regards, André -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
Hi, Von: Aron Xu I've tried xliff2po to convert documentation file to po, and it produces a po file with no header, but many duplicate msgids. We are lacking tools like msgmerge, msgfmt for xliff/sdf translation files, which significantly increases the hardness of managing them. Well, converting po to xliff to work on xliff and then convert back to po is quite stupid. You do not get the advanteges of the more feature-rich xliff file format (as you are still restricted to the po capabilities) but lose the tooling support that you know from po. XLIFF is only usefull if it is your primary file format for handling translations. Tools similar to msgmerge are available. Most of translate toolkit tools process xliff files the same way as they do with po. So - for our current workflow (where unfortunately sdf will stay for a while, as internal file format) it does not really matter if you use po or xliff - it's more or less a matter of taste. I'd prefere xliff. given the fact, that we process the files with translate toolkit in our build environment anyway, it should be easy to leave the joice to the language team and have the build enviroment work with either xliff or po. regards, André -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
Þann fim 6.jan 2011 14:55, skrifaði Andre Schnabel: snip So - for our current workflow (where unfortunately sdf will stay for a while, as internal file format) it does not really matter if you use po or xliff - it's more or less a matter of taste. I'd prefere xliff. given the fact, that we process the files with translate toolkit in our build environment anyway, it should be easy to leave the joice to the language team and have the build enviroment work with either xliff or po. Just curious; if the software would be adapted to use .mo files (compiled from .po) instead of .sdf, would there be speed issues ? It's quite nice when translating software UI to generate .mo's from the .po's and dumping them into the LC_MESSAGES folder, restart application and you see your changes right away. regards, Sveinn í Felli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
2011.01.04 17:55, Andras Timar rašė: 2011/1/4 Jan Holesovskyke...@suse.cz Hi Sophie, all, On 2010-12-30 at 15:18 +0300, Sophie Gautier wrote: I download/update my language .po files using svn (with a very simple script) and use Lokalize with a Translation Memory database, which is now 125M, for translation and a glossary for words of .5 MB. Uploading is using svn commit. Compared to using Pootle this is far more easy. Using svn or git for download and upload is using less bandwith, because only the differences are transported. Thank you very much for your feedback on this. It's great if we can share others experience on this. The only thing I'm afraid of is the technical skills needed for the steps to download or upload the files. Also what will be the process under Windows, is it easy to commit on git or svn or whatever using other OS than Linux (I remember at the very beginning of the OOo FR site, I was under Windows 98 and comits to the cvs repository was not exactly what I call fun ;-) I've just found http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/version_control that describes how to connect Pootle with a version control system. From what I understand, this is built into Pootle. Yep, it's possible. I haven't tested how well, or how it works though. How does that sound? Sounds great - what to do next? Who has the right to set up a module in git (Kendy?), who can configure Pootle to use it (Rimas?). I think we should test a selected set of languages first (e.g. hu), then I will collect all translations from the different sources and upload them. If it's enough if I say I would take a look without any due date, I can say so. But I don't mind anyone else looking into this either. OTOH, I have only skimmed through the wiki page that Jan linked to (without much reading), and the procedure of setting stuff up looks pretty straightforward. What I'm not sure about is how well Pootle would handle version conflicts (e.g. a new file was checked in into git, but Pootle doesn't know it and treats it as unversioned). However, I guess the easiest way to figure this all out is to just try to use the feature. I don't want to give promises, but MAYBE I would look at it this weekend... :) Good night, Rimas -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Lior Kaplan kaplanl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Aron Xu happyaron...@gmail.com wrote:
+1 for choosing .po over .sdf or .xliff, the number of tools designed
to edit and/or manage .po files is much more than the other two
formats AFAIK.
+1
+1 for .po and svn (or git, whatever version management tool is fine to me)
subversion is a bit easier to use than git but I think most translator
will leave the
review/commit cycles to the translation leads :)
svn/git is a must, I need them as a tool for tracking the changes.
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vuhung16plus{remo...@gmail.dot.com , YIM: vuhung16 , Skype: vuhung16plus
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
2011/1/4 Jan Holesovsky ke...@suse.cz Hi Sophie, all, On 2010-12-30 at 15:18 +0300, Sophie Gautier wrote: I download/update my language .po files using svn (with a very simple script) and use Lokalize with a Translation Memory database, which is now 125M, for translation and a glossary for words of .5 MB. Uploading is using svn commit. Compared to using Pootle this is far more easy. Using svn or git for download and upload is using less bandwith, because only the differences are transported. Thank you very much for your feedback on this. It's great if we can share others experience on this. The only thing I'm afraid of is the technical skills needed for the steps to download or upload the files. Also what will be the process under Windows, is it easy to commit on git or svn or whatever using other OS than Linux (I remember at the very beginning of the OOo FR site, I was under Windows 98 and comits to the cvs repository was not exactly what I call fun ;-) I've just found http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/version_control that describes how to connect Pootle with a version control system. From what I understand, this is built into Pootle. Mozilla has been using this feature for a while. It works (from the translators point of view). How does that sound? Sounds great - what to do next? Who has the right to set up a module in git (Kendy?), who can configure Pootle to use it (Rimas?). I think we should test a selected set of languages first (e.g. hu), then I will collect all translations from the different sources and upload them. Thanks, Andras -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
Hi Kendy, all, On 04/01/2011 18:55, Andras Timar wrote: 2011/1/4 Jan Holesovskyke...@suse.cz Hi Sophie, all, On 2010-12-30 at 15:18 +0300, Sophie Gautier wrote: I download/update my language .po files using svn (with a very simple script) and use Lokalize with a Translation Memory database, which is now 125M, for translation and a glossary for words of .5 MB. Uploading is using svn commit. Compared to using Pootle this is far more easy. Using svn or git for download and upload is using less bandwith, because only the differences are transported. Thank you very much for your feedback on this. It's great if we can share others experience on this. The only thing I'm afraid of is the technical skills needed for the steps to download or upload the files. Also what will be the process under Windows, is it easy to commit on git or svn or whatever using other OS than Linux (I remember at the very beginning of the OOo FR site, I was under Windows 98 and comits to the cvs repository was not exactly what I call fun ;-) I've just found http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/version_control that describes how to connect Pootle with a version control system. From what I understand, this is built into Pootle. Mozilla has been using this feature for a while. It works (from the translators point of view). How does that sound? Really great, thanks :) I'm sure several teams will be happy to be able to push their translation directly while others will still be able to use Pootle. Sounds great - what to do next? Who has the right to set up a module in git (Kendy?), who can configure Pootle to use it (Rimas?). I think we should test a selected set of languages first (e.g. hu), then I will collect all translations from the different sources and upload them. If I can be of help, don't hesitate to call me. Thanks to you three for your work on this, it's great to have you on board :-) Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [Libreoffice] [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
Ok, Kendy, I can upload po's in a zip, if that is fine for you. But I do not want to check in stuff etc. I would like to either give you a download link like for OOo where they download from predefined addresses for dev, 3.3, 3.2.1 etc. or I could ftp automagically to some site; it does not need to be sdf delivered. But I need a sdf of English strings, please. If I give you the address you might press some buttons and make a mess, so it is better I do not put it publicly here. It is not much protected, this site. :) Lp, m. 2011/1/3 Jan Holesovsky ke...@suse.cz Hi Martin, On 2010-12-30 at 10:36 +0100, Martin Srebotnjak wrote: The Slovenian team will be working with sdf files (we have our own localization system that works with sdf, splits to po-s and finalizes back to sdf), so -1 from me. What exactly your system that works with sdf does? Is it available somewhere? [Public git/svn/hg/cvs?] From what you described above, you work with po's in the end, so I am somehow missing the point of insisting on sdf ;-) Thank you, Kendy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.orgl10n%2bh...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [Libreoffice] [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
Hi Andras, On 2010-12-30 at 09:13 +0100, Andras Timar wrote: BTW - would it help you if we got rid of the sdf files, and instead we had .po files in the l10n git repository? [For sure it would help us who work with the git repos, because the sdf file format is just something incredibly terrible for version control.] Would you be able to merge directly from the OOo Pootle, or from .po files produced by that, or do you still need .sdf for part of your workflow? Assumption: translate-toolkit can convert translatable content back and forth without loss of information. Yes, I assume the same thing :-) I believe this assumption is true. Translate-toolkit has been used for a long time by many teams. My suggestion is that all l10n teams should use Pootle to submit their translations. This does not mean that they must use Pootle to translate. They can use Pootle, offline PO editing tools, xliff, or edit sdf file directly - it does not matter. However at the end translations must be uploaded to Pootle in .po format. Pootle - with a git back-end - will contain the master copy of translations. Sounds great to me. English sdf file should be produced regularly for Pootle update. l10n repository will be obsolete. Build should take .po files from git (Pootle back-end) and generate localized sdf files build-time. Problems: 1. How to import existing LibreOffice translations to Pootle? l10n repository contains monolingual (and sometimes outdated) sdf files. We can export up-to-date bilingual (en-US + translated) sdf files from the source, but we cannot make a difference between untranslated strings and strings that are intentionally same as en-US (URLs, code, function names, language names etc.). Sun stored translations in a database (not public) and they kept track of this information - this cannot be extracted from the source. I think that with a simple heuristic, we might get quite good results: - if there exists a language that has a translation = mark the string as not translated - if there no translation in any language, mark as fuzzy; it probably is an URL or something We can play a bit with the % of languages that have the translation for the fuzzy / not translated at all split; I hope it might work reasonably well. 2. How to merge translations from OpenOffice.org? I think it should be decided individually for each language team. Automatic merge should happen for only those languages that do not have LibreOffice translators. Of course technical support should be provided for all. Translators don't need to understand the technical details. I think members of this list have the knowledge, we can put together a good process. Sounds good to me. Thank you, Kendy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Aron Xu happyaron...@gmail.com wrote: +1 for choosing .po over .sdf or .xliff, the number of tools designed to edit and/or manage .po files is much more than the other two formats AFAIK. +1 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
Please bear in mind, that while working just with po's in Pootle might be a great idea, but for teams not using Pootle sdf (or zipped po files) is the only way to go. Or will you take one by one po file from our ftp sites for automatic building of builds? Lp, m. 2010/12/30 Martin Srebotnjak mi...@filmsi.net The Slovenian team will be working with sdf files (we have our own localization system that works with sdf, splits to po-s and finalizes back to sdf), so -1 from me. Lp, m. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
Hi Martin, FYI, Pootle allows downloading zipped achives of full projects. I'm not sure about uploading though... Rimas 2010.12.30 11:38, Martin Srebotnjak rašė: Please bear in mind, that while working just with po's in Pootle might be a great idea, but for teams not using Pootle sdf (or zipped po files) is the only way to go. Or will you take one by one po file from our ftp sites for automatic building of builds? Lp, m. 2010/12/30 Martin Srebotnjakmi...@filmsi.net The Slovenian team will be working with sdf files (we have our own localization system that works with sdf, splits to po-s and finalizes back to sdf), so -1 from me. Lp, m. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
2010.12.30 11:54, Martin Srebotnjak rašė: So even if we don't want to use pootle we will have to? No, that was just a piece of info that you seemed not to know. I was not implying that you will or will not have to use Pootle, that's not up to me to decide. Rimas -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
2010.12.30. 10:36 keltezéssel, Martin Srebotnjak írta: The Slovenian team will be working with sdf files (we have our own localization system that works with sdf, splits to po-s and finalizes back to sdf), so -1 from me. Lp, m. You can use whatever tool you want. English sdf file will be provided separately. At the end you'll have a localized sdf. You can convert it to a bunch of po files and upload them to Pootle. That's all. This is one more step on your side but simplifies the process on the other side. More than 100 languages need to be managed. It would be desirable, if everybody used the same process. Even having two processes in OOo project (one is Pootle the other is sdf via issuezilla) is confusing sometimes. Andras -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
2010/12/30 Andras Timar tima...@gmail.com Even having two processes in OOo project (one is Pootle the other is sdf via issuezilla) is confusing sometimes. OOo does not use issuezilla anymore, but langteams provide a ftp/http where from the sdf is taken automatically prior a build. So it is as automatic as taking files from Pootle, just that two scripts must be run, not just one. Lp, m. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
2010/12/30 Andras Timar tima...@gmail.com 2010.12.30. 10:54 keltezéssel, Martin Srebotnjak írta: So even if we don't want to use pootle we will have to? My proposal was to *store* translation in Pootle. It is up to you how to make translation. One option is Pootle but you may choose other option. Andras, if you can make an automated script for me, so that I do not have to log into Pootle, select the right menu, select the file from my disk, then wait for upload, then check if it is in etc. If the LO team can make an automated process that we upload the zip via ftp or something, maybe that is a solution. Thanks, m. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 18:15, Martin Srebotnjak mi...@filmsi.net wrote: Andras, if you can make an automated script for me, so that I do not have to log into Pootle, select the right menu, select the file from my disk, then wait for upload, then check if it is in etc. If the LO team can make an automated process that we upload the zip via ftp or something, maybe that is a solution. Thanks, m. You still have to log into something ( for example an ftp account), and it will cost more efforts for people who maintain it. If you really want to make it automatically, you still can write a script (e.g. Perl WWW:Mechanize, or even using curl) to log into your Pootle account and submit files. -- Regards, Aron Xu -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
Hi Martin, Andras, On 30/12/2010 13:11, Andras Timar wrote: 2010.12.30. 10:54 keltezéssel, Martin Srebotnjak írta: So even if we don't want to use pootle we will have to? My proposal was to *store* translation in Pootle. It is up to you how to make translation. One option is Pootle but you may choose other option. I agree with Andras, here. I, for myself, use Pootle only as a repository, never for translation, sometime to make some checks. So this is not an obligation, we are trying to see how to simplify the process for the teams taking care of the files at the different steps of the localization process. As Kendy explained, having .sdf file in GIT (and any SCM) is a mess because of the file format. So if in our process it is possible to remove this .sdf step, that will save time to several of us. Of course, if it's a burden for your team, we will find a way to make you happy, no probem. Even OOo is going into a better direction - they have now automated the build process of localized builds and they automatically grab Slovenian sdf from our ftp address, when they need it. Getting rid of the l10n repository is also the goal. It is huge, currently 2.4 GB, and is getting bigger with every commit. It takes ages to download, it takes minutes to commit push something, cgit web interface timeouts when I query this repository etc. git is not good at handling large text files. AFAIK OOo has the same problem and I have not seen their solution. Yes and taking the issue where it is, is imho more efficient than adding ways to workaround it. I will rely and Andras and Rimas here as I know nothing about Pootle admin and Git. But again Martin, rest assure that we won't put something in place that won't let you contribute in the way you are used to. Let just see how we can make things a little bit better for every body, how it's possible. Kind regards Sophie -- Founding member of The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-l10n] LO Pootle
Hi Sophie, Thank you for all the explanations! :-) On 2010-12-29 at 21:00 +0300, Sophie Gautier wrote: This is now two/three months that we didn't touch the files because we do not have them in the LO Pootle repository and we are not working any more on the OOo Pootle repository. So some teams have now a fair amount of issues to fix in their files, that will take time and resources, and we need to have the complete set of files in the LO Pootle repository for that. I see, OK. What is at the moment blocking the import of the content of the OOo Pootle into the LO Pootle, please? Just some missing tooling, or the decision of what is the source for the translations how to organize them? On 2010-12-29 at 21:00 +0300, Sophie Gautier wrote: Ah, maybe I understand now ;-) So of course, it is up to you to define if you want to have the translations merged from the OOo tree to the LO tree for 3.4, or not. I understand it that you'd prefer not to, ie. l10n repo (containing the localize.sdf's) untouched by the merges from OOo, right? That was what I was not sure about: all the new features and bug fixes for OOo will be merged to the LO tree for 3.4. Most probably we won't be merging everything, which might cause trouble when merging the localizations as a whole :-( In that case yes, we want the l10n repo merged and containing all the new features or fixes strings from OOo. And the sooner the better whatever the amount of strings :-) So that means that we can extract the strings from the last OOoDEV and merge them with our LO file to have the complete (UI+HC2) set of strings up to date until now? Based on what you wrote, I think for LO master (towards-3.4), the best would be to extract all the strings from the current git repositories (ie. from the LO master branch, not from OOoDEV) to have the complete set (so that it would look similar to what is in the OOo Pootle now, but based on LO sources), and msgmerge the translations from OOo and from lo-build.po. That way, it would be easy to merge updated translations from OOo later (should there be any), while still having the LO strings as the base. Or are there reasons not to do that? BTW - would it help you if we got rid of the sdf files, and instead we had .po files in the l10n git repository? [For sure it would help us who work with the git repos, because the sdf file format is just something incredibly terrible for version control.] Would you be able to merge directly from the OOo Pootle, or from .po files produced by that, or do you still need .sdf for part of your workflow? Regards, Kendy -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/l10n/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
