Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Kruno]

06.06.2016 u 12:24, Eike Rathke je napisao/la:

Hi Kruno,

On Thursday, 2016-06-02 09:35:27 +0200, Kruno wrote:


See here: http://pravopis.hr/pravilo/bjelina/54/

It's not controversial topic in Croatian orthography. Personal preferences
and that "I used to" really should not be an argument here. If we have
Croatian local, then this is what we must do.

If in doubt consult the CLDR, see
http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/29/by_type/numbers.number_formatting_patterns.html#17acd127f9139476

The CLDR has a vetting system and they change things only after having
investigated given references.

I don't see ·hr· being listed for the percent format, so it should fall
under {#,##0%} ·all·others·, i.e. no space between number and percent
sign.

   Eike



I'm not in doubt but not perusing this ether. Leave it (for now). :)

Kruno

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[winfrieddonkers]

Hi,


Eike Rathke wrote on 06-06-16 12:24:


If in doubt consult the CLDR, see
http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/29/by_type/numbers.number_formatting_patterns.html#17acd127f9139476

[...]


Interesting.
If I interpret that correct, Dutch should be "#,##0%"
However, "Taalunie" (language 'authority') says, based on ISO, that for
Dutch a space before percent is official, although without space is
acceptable in non technical use.

[...]


@Winfried: you're more in technical use that I am. What would be your
take here?


My personal view (based on experiences with the use of percents) is that 
between value and the percent character a space is optional and no space 
is more common.
But as I cannot offer any references, let alone standards, supporting my 
view, don't give too much weight to my view.


Winfried

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Cor Nouws]

Hi,

Eike Rathke wrote on 06-06-16 12:24:

> If in doubt consult the CLDR, see
> http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/29/by_type/numbers.number_formatting_patterns.html#17acd127f9139476
> 
> The CLDR has a vetting system and they change things only after having
> investigated given references.

Interesting.
If I interpret that correct, Dutch should be "#,##0%"
However, "Taalunie" (language 'authority') says, based on ISO, that for
Dutch a space before percent is official, although without space is
acceptable in non technical use.
See

http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/tekst/114/wel_of_geen_spaties_voor_en_na_leestekens_en_symbolen_algemeen/#10

@Winfried: you're more in technical use that I am. What would be your
take here?

Ciao
Cor

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Eike Rathke]

Hi Kruno,

On Thursday, 2016-06-02 09:35:27 +0200, Kruno wrote:

> See here: http://pravopis.hr/pravilo/bjelina/54/
> 
> It's not controversial topic in Croatian orthography. Personal preferences
> and that "I used to" really should not be an argument here. If we have
> Croatian local, then this is what we must do.

If in doubt consult the CLDR, see
http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/29/by_type/numbers.number_formatting_patterns.html#17acd127f9139476

The CLDR has a vetting system and they change things only after having
investigated given references.

I don't see ·hr· being listed for the percent format, so it should fall
under {#,##0%} ·all·others·, i.e. no space between number and percent
sign.

  Eike

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Eike Rathke]

Hi Christian,

On Thursday, 2016-06-02 07:15:07 +0200, Christian Kühl wrote:

> For German a non-breaking space between number and percent sign as well
> as units is required, too.

Actually only for Germany, Austria and others, but not for Suisse or
Liechtenstein.

  Eike

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Adolfo Jayme Barrientos]

2016-06-02 13:30 GMT-05:00 Kolbjørn Stuestøl :
> Also in Norwegian (nb and nn) there should be a non-breaking space between
> the value and the unit:
> 4 %; 2 kg; 1 m; etc. Also in 21 °C, but 180° (angle).

Ditto for Spanish, which follows the same rules as Norwegian and
Croatian, as mentioned in this thread.

Spanish is consistent with ISO 31-0/ISO 8-1 standards and uses a
no-break space between a value and its unit symbol, unless it stands
above the baseline (degrees and primes). There is, however, a general
lack of education w.r.t. typographical syntax among Hispanophones, so
you can see it both spaced and unspaced, as in English. But at least
in formal or carefully-edited writing, it will be spaced.

Thanks

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Kolbjørn Stuestøl]

Den 01.06.2016 21:25, Stanislav Horáček skreiv:

Hi all,

for most locales, formatting code for the "Percent" category in Calc 
is a number followed by the percent sign without any space. However, a 
non-breaking space is usually put after the number in some languages. 
Thanks to Eike, this has been fixed for Finnish and Czech (see the bug 
[1]).


I believe that more locales need to be corrected - please check the 
percentage format in your locale and if the space is missing, report 
it by replying to this thread - Eike will go through the replies.


Thank you,
Stanislav


[1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63272

Also in Norwegian (nb and nn) there should be a non-breaking space 
between the value and the unit:

4 %; 2 kg; 1 m; etc. Also in 21 °C, but 180° (angle).
Thank you doing for this.
Kolbjørn

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Mihovil Stanić]

Sorry for list noise, but since Stanislav confirmed that it won't change 
funcionality, I'm ok with adding space between number and % (for HR) as 
Kruno suggested.


Mihovil


02.06.2016 u 09:23, Kruno je napisao/la:



02.06.2016 u 07:15, Christian Kühl je napisao/la:

Hi, Eike!

Am 01.06.2016 um 21:25 schrieb Stanislav Horáček:


for most locales, formatting code for the "Percent" category in Calc
is a number followed by the percent sign without any space. However,
a non-breaking space is usually put after the number in some
languages. Thanks to Eike, this has been fixed for Finnish and Czech
(see the bug [1]).

I believe that more locales need to be corrected - please check the
percentage format in your locale and if the space is missing, report
it by replying to this thread - Eike will go through the replies.


For German a non-breaking space between number and percent sign as well
as units is required, too.

Thanks,
Christian.



Same for Croatian: 1 m; 62,5 %; 0,5 ‰; 3 kg; 2 m; 220 V; 60 W; 50 m/s...

And then 5 °C but 180^o 20′ 50″.


Is it possible to use non-braking space in AutoCorretion? Is there 
some html-like notation or something?


Kruno




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Stanislav Horáček]

Hi,

Dne 2.6.2016 v 09:18 Mihovil Stanić napsal(a):

When you enter 5% in cell which is formatted as NUMBER (GENERAL), does
it automatically convert to 5,00 % (for new Czech and Finnish setup)?

Mihovil


yes, the entered 5% (or 5 % with the space) is converted to 5,00 % for 
the new setup (and to 5,00% for the old one).


Stanislav

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Kruno]

Although, if it's not fixable in all mentioned cases (without braking 
something somewhere else), maybe better to let alone.


No point having 5 % and 5kn...

Kruno


02.06.2016 u 09:35, Kruno je napisao/la:

Well, we can talk, but there's nothing to be talked about...

See here: http://pravopis.hr/pravilo/bjelina/54/

It's not controversial topic in Croatian orthography. Personal 
preferences and that "I used to" really should not be an argument 
here. If we have Croatian local, then this is what we must do.


You can always switch to English local for some special usage or cases.

Having regular space would be a bad idea, and even I would appose, but 
having a non-breaking space is exactly what we need.


I'll let Mihovil to decide and not interfere, but it's plain simple...

Kruno



02.06.2016 u 09:27, Mihovil Stanić je napisao/la:
No please don't for now. Kruno and I will first talk before we make 
this decision.


Mihovil


02.06.2016 u 09:23, Kruno je napisao/la:



02.06.2016 u 07:15, Christian Kühl je napisao/la:

Hi, Eike!

Am 01.06.2016 um 21:25 schrieb Stanislav Horáček:


for most locales, formatting code for the "Percent" category in Calc
is a number followed by the percent sign without any space. However,
a non-breaking space is usually put after the number in some
languages. Thanks to Eike, this has been fixed for Finnish and Czech
(see the bug [1]).

I believe that more locales need to be corrected - please check the
percentage format in your locale and if the space is missing, report
it by replying to this thread - Eike will go through the replies.


For German a non-breaking space between number and percent sign as 
well

as units is required, too.

Thanks,
Christian.



Same for Croatian: 1 m; 62,5 %; 0,5 ‰; 3 kg; 2 m; 220 V; 60 W; 50 
m/s...


And then 5 °C but 180^o 20′ 50″.


Is it possible to use non-braking space in AutoCorretion? Is there 
some html-like notation or something?


Kruno










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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Muhammet Kara]

Hi,

No space is needed for Turkish, but the place of the percent sign is 
wrong; it should be placed before the number (like %5 rather than 5%)[0] 
and I have sent a patch to fix that.[1] (btw It also affects the tables 
added in lo writer)


I don't know how we didn't realize this before. Thank you for bringing 
this to our attention.


Thanks,
Muhammet

[0] 
http://www.tdk.gov.tr/index.php?option=com_content=article=182:Sayilarin-

[1] https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/25805/


On 06/01/2016 10:25 PM, Stanislav Horáček wrote:

Hi all,

for most locales, formatting code for the "Percent" category in Calc 
is a number followed by the percent sign without any space. However, a 
non-breaking space is usually put after the number in some languages. 
Thanks to Eike, this has been fixed for Finnish and Czech (see the bug 
[1]).


I believe that more locales need to be corrected - please check the 
percentage format in your locale and if the space is missing, report 
it by replying to this thread - Eike will go through the replies.


Thank you,
Stanislav


[1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63272




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Kruno]

Well, we can talk, but there's nothing to be talked about...

See here: http://pravopis.hr/pravilo/bjelina/54/

It's not controversial topic in Croatian orthography. Personal 
preferences and that "I used to" really should not be an argument here. 
If we have Croatian local, then this is what we must do.


You can always switch to English local for some special usage or cases.

Having regular space would be a bad idea, and even I would appose, but 
having a non-breaking space is exactly what we need.


I'll let Mihovil to decide and not interfere, but it's plain simple...

Kruno



02.06.2016 u 09:27, Mihovil Stanić je napisao/la:
No please don't for now. Kruno and I will first talk before we make 
this decision.


Mihovil


02.06.2016 u 09:23, Kruno je napisao/la:



02.06.2016 u 07:15, Christian Kühl je napisao/la:

Hi, Eike!

Am 01.06.2016 um 21:25 schrieb Stanislav Horáček:


for most locales, formatting code for the "Percent" category in Calc
is a number followed by the percent sign without any space. However,
a non-breaking space is usually put after the number in some
languages. Thanks to Eike, this has been fixed for Finnish and Czech
(see the bug [1]).

I believe that more locales need to be corrected - please check the
percentage format in your locale and if the space is missing, report
it by replying to this thread - Eike will go through the replies.


For German a non-breaking space between number and percent sign as well
as units is required, too.

Thanks,
Christian.



Same for Croatian: 1 m; 62,5 %; 0,5 ‰; 3 kg; 2 m; 220 V; 60 W; 50 m/s...

And then 5 °C but 180^o 20′ 50″.


Is it possible to use non-braking space in AutoCorretion? Is there 
some html-like notation or something?


Kruno







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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Mihovil Stanić]

No please don't for now. Kruno and I will first talk before we make this 
decision.


Mihovil


02.06.2016 u 09:23, Kruno je napisao/la:



02.06.2016 u 07:15, Christian Kühl je napisao/la:

Hi, Eike!

Am 01.06.2016 um 21:25 schrieb Stanislav Horáček:


for most locales, formatting code for the "Percent" category in Calc
is a number followed by the percent sign without any space. However,
a non-breaking space is usually put after the number in some
languages. Thanks to Eike, this has been fixed for Finnish and Czech
(see the bug [1]).

I believe that more locales need to be corrected - please check the
percentage format in your locale and if the space is missing, report
it by replying to this thread - Eike will go through the replies.


For German a non-breaking space between number and percent sign as well
as units is required, too.

Thanks,
Christian.



Same for Croatian: 1 m; 62,5 %; 0,5 ‰; 3 kg; 2 m; 220 V; 60 W; 50 m/s...

And then 5 °C but 180^o 20′ 50″.


Is it possible to use non-braking space in AutoCorretion? Is there 
some html-like notation or something?


Kruno




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Kruno]

02.06.2016 u 07:15, Christian Kühl je napisao/la:

Hi, Eike!

Am 01.06.2016 um 21:25 schrieb Stanislav Horáček:


for most locales, formatting code for the "Percent" category in Calc
is a number followed by the percent sign without any space. However,
a non-breaking space is usually put after the number in some
languages. Thanks to Eike, this has been fixed for Finnish and Czech
(see the bug [1]).

I believe that more locales need to be corrected - please check the
percentage format in your locale and if the space is missing, report
it by replying to this thread - Eike will go through the replies.


For German a non-breaking space between number and percent sign as well
as units is required, too.

Thanks,
Christian.



Same for Croatian: 1 m; 62,5 %; 0,5 ‰; 3 kg; 2 m; 220 V; 60 W; 50 m/s...

And then 5 °C but 180^o 20′ 50″.


Is it possible to use non-braking space in AutoCorretion? Is there some 
html-like notation or something?


Kruno

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Mihovil Stanić]

When you enter 5% in cell which is formatted as NUMBER (GENERAL), does 
it automatically convert to 5,00 % (for new Czech and Finnish setup)?


Mihovil


01.06.2016 u 21:25, Stanislav Horáček je napisao/la:

Hi all,

for most locales, formatting code for the "Percent" category in Calc 
is a number followed by the percent sign without any space. However, a 
non-breaking space is usually put after the number in some languages. 
Thanks to Eike, this has been fixed for Finnish and Czech (see the bug 
[1]).


I believe that more locales need to be corrected - please check the 
percentage format in your locale and if the space is missing, report 
it by replying to this thread - Eike will go through the replies.


Thank you,
Stanislav


[1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63272




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Missing space in formatting of percents in Calc

[Christian Kühl]

Hi, Eike!

Am 01.06.2016 um 21:25 schrieb Stanislav Horáček:


for most locales, formatting code for the "Percent" category in Calc
is a number followed by the percent sign without any space. However,
a non-breaking space is usually put after the number in some
languages. Thanks to Eike, this has been fixed for Finnish and Czech
(see the bug [1]).

I believe that more locales need to be corrected - please check the
percentage format in your locale and if the space is missing, report
it by replying to this thread - Eike will go through the replies.


For German a non-breaking space between number and percent sign as well
as units is required, too.

Thanks,
Christian.

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