Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Maureen]

Just  because he studied them in the early 1800s  I would think they started 
before quite a while before then.  A question to the curator at the Lace Guild 
may well help.  Or maybe look at Santina Leveys book, Lace, as she was at the V 
& A in London for many years.  Although their lace collection is, I believe, in 
deep storage now, as well as the lace in Bedford Museum and Luton.

Maureen
E Yorks UK

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Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Karen Thompson]

Devon, Thank you for correcting this. I am away from my books at the
moment. It makes much more sense that he studied the point ground laces in
the early 1800s, when there is no question they were made. Another sample
of disinformation in some of the old articles.
Karen - in sunny and cool Delaware

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RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[devonthein]

This topic is covered in Lace Machines and Machine Laces by Pat Earnshaw, p.
66 and p. 67. This claims that John Heathcoat was born in 1783 (not 1732!) and
died in 1861. The first warp frame making marketable net, which resembled
knitting, was made in 1795 when Heathcoat was 12. He seems to have registered
some variation on the warp frame in 1804 (when he was 21). Then he started
studying the movements of the Northamptonshire bobbin lacemakers and invented
the machine that copied point ground in 1808. So, I would say that this is
entirely consistent with our discussion of point ground.
Devon

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Karen Thompson]

Lorelei,
I agree completely. I have never read anywhere that the lace made in
Buckingham in 1750 was point ground. What made me pause on this article was
that Mr. Heathcoat supposedly learned to make lace from the Buckingham lace
makers around 1753 and imitated the point ground on his Loughborough
machine. But the machine was not made until 1809, and we know that point
ground was made before that. So could he have tried, unsuccessfully, to
imitate other grounds, like Mechlin, earlier? and not until the point
ground was made by hand could he make it by machine? Also, we have no idea
what background Mr. Smiles had for writing his article in 1859.
As usual, more questions than answers.
-
​Karen​

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RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Lorelei Halley]

Karen

The problem is that we don’t know what the lace made in Buckingham in 1753
looked like. Our discussion of names of laces has pointed out that some names
refer to geographic regions but have nothing to do with the structure created
or the techniques used. We need some kind of external evidence of what that
lace looked like.

Lorelei



From: Karen Thompson [mailto:karenhthomp...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:27 PM
To: Lorelei Halley <lhal...@bytemeusa.com>
Cc: devonth...@gmail.com; Nancy Neff <nancy.a.n...@gmail.com>; Arachne
<lace@arachne.com>
Subject: Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

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Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Karen Thompson]

Thank you for the comments on the point ground. Hopefully there will be
more. As Devon and Lorelei say, it makes sense that due to fashion changes
in the late 1700s to much simpler and lighter laces and clothes in general,
the point ground provided a lighter background for the motifs. At the same
time it was also quicker to make.
Point ground is also the ground that was imitated on the early twist net
lace machines. By looking online I found this when searching for John
Heathcoat, lace machine.
http://victorianweb.org/technology/inventors/heathcoat.html Here we can
read that John Heathcoat at the age of 21, in 1753, 'laboured to compass
the contrivance of a twist traverse-net machine. He first studied the art
of making the Buckingham or pillow-lace by hand, with the object of
effecting the same motions by mechanical means'. From Samuel Smile's
Self-Help (1859). If this is true, lace makers in Buckingham made point
ground lace in 1753. It would be great to ascertain this from other
sources. Mr Heathcoat's fist successful lace machine making bobbin net was
set up in 1809.
-Karen

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RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Lorelei Halley]

I agree with Devon
Lorelei

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
devonth...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:33 PM
To: Nancy Neff <nancy.a.n...@gmail.com>; Karen Thompson
<karenhthomp...@gmail.com>; Arachne <lace@arachne.com>
Subject: RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

Dear Karen,
It would not seem that it would be that hard to find out something like
this, yet I have been looking in my books for confirmation of my gut feeling
about it, and am surprised at how difficult it is to verify.
My gut feeling is that it arose in the last two decades of the 18th century
when the motifs had shrunk to teeny tiny little flowers and borders.

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RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Lorelei Halley]

Karen
I understand your question. My impression is also that point ground began in
the late 1700s. We have paintings of Empress Josephine wearing lace of a
style similar to these. Laces with that style sometimes used point ground
and sometimes Mechlin ground. Once we get past that style Mechlin ground
disappears, until the Revival Era around 1900. This page in my website has
photos of laces from Josephine's time.
http://lynxlace.com/bobbinlacenapoleonic.html 
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/17/6b/9c/176b9c555e136a1c3978207c1
654467b.jpg 

Most of the motivation for inventing point ground was that it is faster to
work than Mechlin or kat stitch. And that motivation goes with the world of
the 1800s
Lorelei

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
Karen Thompson
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:36 PM
To: Arachne <lace@arachne.com>
Subject: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

It is with great interest that I have followed the conversations about
Mechlin, Valenciennes, Binche, etc. and am wondering if the conversation can
continue with point ground. So far, I have not been able to find a date
(approximate) for the start of point ground laces. The closest I have come
is late in the 1700s.  

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Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Bobbi Donnelly]

Karen, we found the same thing with the Tønder samples.
Many of the museum samples had been actually glued to
boards at some point! One piece in particular that was only
about 1/2 " wide by about 5 " long measured 5 different angles!
So it's really hard to determine what the 'real' angles might have been.
I would love to see what you come up with though on the
point ground issue!
Take care and talk to you soon.
bobbi

-Original Message- 
From: Karen Thompson

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:55 PM
To: Nancy Neff
Cc: Arachne
Subject: Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

The angles of the samples are anywhere from about 33 to 68, sometimes in
the same piece! Some of this might be due to distortion of the samples
between being made in 1789 and being mounted on acid-free board in the
1970s or 1980s at the Library of Congress. Or the prickings might have been
distorted by having been copied a number of times - or from the snippet of
lace they made the pricking from.
-Karen 


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Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Karen Thompson]

The angles of the samples are anywhere from about 33 to 68, sometimes in
the same piece! Some of this might be due to distortion of the samples
between being made in 1789 and being mounted on acid-free board in the
1970s or 1980s at the Library of Congress. Or the prickings might have been
distorted by having been copied a number of times - or from the snippet of
lace they made the pricking from.
-Karen

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RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[devonthein]

Dear Karen,
It would not seem that it would be that hard to find out something like this,
yet I have been looking in my books for confirmation of my gut feeling about
it, and am surprised at how difficult it is to verify.
My gut feeling is that it arose in the last two decades of the 18th century
when the motifs had shrunk to teeny tiny little flowers and borders.
In looking for this, the first problem is that the term “point ground”
does not come up in my various identification and history books. Instead I am
substituting Tulle, Lille, fond simple and fond clair.
Regarding Lille, Gwyne, The Illustrated Dictionary of Lace, says, “A
continuous bobbin lace with a Fond Simple ground (Bobbin Ground C, page. 198),
adopted from late C18. A larger mesh was used from 1803. The Cloth stitch
designs were outlined with coarse flat gimp. The toile of the laces in C 18
was mainly gimp, with very little cloth stitch in the design.
There is more, but, interestingly part of it reads, “The laces of
Buckinghamshire, England, are thought to have been copies of Lille designs and
technique, brought to England by refugees. The difference between these two
laces is not easy to detect, but the Lille deisgns are smaller than tose of
Buckinghamshire, and possibly a fraction more “finger like”. Nevertheless
they are virtually indistinguishable.”
Devon

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Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Nancy Neff]

Hi Karen,

What are the angles of the grounds in the Ipswich lace samples?

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Karen Thompson 
wrote:

> It is with great interest that I have followed the conversations about
> Mechlin, Valenciennes, Binche, etc. and am wondering if the conversation
> can continue with point ground. So far, I have not been able to find a date
> (approximate) for the start of point ground laces. The closest I have come
> is late in the 1700s.  Of the 22 Ipswich lace samples made in Massachusetts
> between 1789 and 1790 and preserved at the Library of Congress, only one of
> them employ point ground, and that is as a filling. Most of the grounds are
> Paris ground/Kat stitch or some version of Torchon, including honeycomb. My
> guess is that point ground was fairly new, but one of the lace makers
> figured out how to make it from a snippet of imported lace.  Any help will
> be greatly appreciated.
>
> -Karen  - usually in Washington, DC or Delaware
>
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> To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
> unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to
> arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
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>

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[lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Karen Thompson]

It is with great interest that I have followed the conversations about
Mechlin, Valenciennes, Binche, etc. and am wondering if the conversation
can continue with point ground. So far, I have not been able to find a date
(approximate) for the start of point ground laces. The closest I have come
is late in the 1700s.  Of the 22 Ipswich lace samples made in Massachusetts
between 1789 and 1790 and preserved at the Library of Congress, only one of
them employ point ground, and that is as a filling. Most of the grounds are
Paris ground/Kat stitch or some version of Torchon, including honeycomb. My
guess is that point ground was fairly new, but one of the lace makers
figured out how to make it from a snippet of imported lace.  Any help will
be greatly appreciated.

-Karen  - usually in Washington, DC or Delaware

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