Re: [lace] Saxony Lace-Czech?

[cadega2]

Definitely this piece is not the style of Hinojosa lace. 
As I privately commented to Devon, Hinojosa is a continuous tape lace without 
grounds nor fillings between tapes.
The Saxony piece is a part tape lace worked with clothstitch. There are drawn 
some spaces between tapes that are filled with "vermicellos". The vermicello is 
a little tape which is worked making little rings that seem holes, coming back 
on itself again and again until the space is filled. It is also called 
"occhiolino tipo serpentino" . There are in Italia pieces completely made with 
this stitch, especially in the North.
On the book "Merletto a Fuselli"  -Note de storia e materiali d'archivio- tells 
about the cultural relation between the Lace School of Gorizia with others 
Schools in Viena, Eslovenia, Praga and Germany before the First World 's War.
So  it is not a nonsense thinking in the possiblity of a piece with some common 
features

Greetings from Barcelona. Spain.

Carolina de la Guardia


> El 16 feb 2017, a las 18:40, Malvary Cole  escribió:
> 
> The other vermicelli lace not mentioned, which has no holes and where the 
> cloth stitch goes right to the edges is hinohosa from Spain.
> 
> Just another thought to be put in the mix.
> 
> Malvary in Ottawa where we have had about 50cm of snow since Sunday, but not 
> as badly hit as the Maritimes.  Nice sunny day (well it was when I started 
> this message), and allegedly +7 temperature for Sunday.
> 
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Re: [lace] Saxony Lace-Czech?

[Malvary Cole]

The other vermicelli lace not mentioned, which has no holes and where the 
cloth stitch goes right to the edges is hinohosa from Spain.


Just another thought to be put in the mix.

Malvary in Ottawa where we have had about 50cm of snow since Sunday, but not 
as badly hit as the Maritimes.  Nice sunny day (well it was when I started 
this message), and allegedly +7 temperature for Sunday.


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[lace] Saxony Lace-Czech?

[devonthein]

Sorry, in my haste I sent this from the AOL and not the gmail account.
Devon

Many thanks to all those who are helping me with the puzzle of the Saxony
lace. I have received some very insightful replies, both privately and
publicly.
Some themes emerge. Bohemia is a confusing concept, geographically and
culturally.
Several people, Jean, and Leonard, tended to identify the lace as resembling
photographs that several books called Russian lace. Undoubtedly there are
similarities with Russian lace, for instance the floral subtext. Russian lace
itself changes over time taking on dramatically different appearances. One
thing that sort of bothers me about calling this piece Russian lace (in
medium) is that Russian lace often has a much more airy appearance, even
though it is also a tape lace that rambles around the way this one does. The
fact that the linen stitch is spread out as close to the edge of the tape as
possible and there are no decorative tapes seems to be a feature. One sees
this on Czech lace on ethnic costumes.
Lorelei focused more on the loopty-lous as I call them, but Carolina would
call them Vermicelli. This term Vermicelli also appears in Palliser. Another
term I think I have seen is occhiolini, which I believe translates to eyelet.
But this term or one like it (occhiwork) also seems to apply to tatting as
Alex’s Illustrated Dictionary of Lacemaking defines it that way. Lorelei was
kind enough to provide an entire history of laces going back in time with this
feature. Most interesting was the role it played in the development of what
would later become raised work in point d’Angleterre and Honiton. However,
most of the use of the vermicelli seems to be a specialty of Italian and
Eastern European lacemakers, at least that is my impression.
This feature, the vermicelli, is one that gives me pause also about putting
such a piece in the category of Russian lace. Ilske thinks it is very
characteristic of Czech lace. In fact, I am wondering if the term “Church”
lace was a mistaken transcription of Czech lace. Back then a lot of things
were originally handwritten and not always as clearly as one might hope.
High marks to Leonard for his memory of the work of Mincoff and Marriage. Here
the subject of Saxony lace is addressed head on, and the date of the work,
1907 corresponds directly to the date when the piece arrived in the
collection, 1908. Sadly, the examples given do not resemble the piece at all.
But, double word score for Leonard, for having found a reference to making
Mechlin in Turnhout! (However, one may interpret the word Mechlin in this
context!)
I am wondering if Czech lace can be considered a “medium” or style in
itself.
Devon




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[lace] Saxony Lace-Czech?

[dmt11home]

Many thanks to all those who are helping me with the puzzle of the Saxony
lace. I have received some very insightful replies, both privately and
publicly.
Some themes emerge. Bohemia is a confusing concept, geographically and
culturally.
Several people, Jean, and Leonard, tended to identify the lace as resembling
photographs that several books called Russian lace. Undoubtedly there are
similarities with Russian lace, for instance the floral subtext. Russian lace
itself changes over time taking on dramatically different appearances. One
thing that sort of bothers me about calling this piece Russian lace (in
medium) is that Russian lace often has a much more airy appearance, even
though it is also a tape lace that rambles around the way this one does. The
fact that the linen stitch is spread out as close to the edge of the tape as
possible and there are no decorative tapes seems to be a feature. One sees
this on Czech lace on ethnic costumes.
Lorelei focused more on the loopty-lous as I call them, but Carolina would
call them Vermicelli. This term Vermicelli also appears in Palliser. Another
term I think I have seen is occhiolini, which I believe translates to eyelet.
But this term or one like it (occhiwork) also seems to apply to tatting as
Alex’s Illustrated Dictionary of Lacemaking defines it that way. Lorelei was
kind enough to provide an entire history of laces going back in time with this
feature. Most interesting was the role it played in the development of what
would later become raised work in point d’Angleterre and Honiton. However,
most of the use of the vermicelli seems to be a specialty of Italian and
Eastern European lacemakers, at least that is my impression.
This feature, the vermicelli, is one that gives me pause also about putting
such a piece in the category of Russian lace. Ilske thinks it is very
characteristic of Czech lace. In fact, I am wondering if the term “Church”
lace was a mistaken transcription of Czech lace. Back then a lot of things
were originally handwritten and not always as clearly as one might hope.
High marks to Leonard for his memory of the work of Mincoff and Marriage. Here
the subject of Saxony lace is addressed head on, and the date of the work,
1907 corresponds directly to the date when the piece arrived in the
collection, 1908. Sadly, the examples given do not resemble the piece at all.
But, double word score for Leonard, for having found a reference to making
Mechlin in Turnhout! (However, one may interpret the word Mechlin in this
context!)
I am wondering if Czech lace can be considered a “medium” or style in
itself.
Devon




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[lace] Saxony Lace/Bohemia?

[devonthein]

Fellow spiders,
So how about this? My reading indicates that there is a part of Saxony that is
in Bohemia. I spent a fair amount of time following this lead on Bohemia until
the penny dropped and I looked it up in our own incomparable data base. Darned
if I didn’t get this piece
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/218647?sortBy=Relevancewh
ere=Bohemiawhat=Bobbin+lace%7cLaceft=*offset=0rpp=20
pos=2   identified as 20th century Bohemian lace. It looks just like the piece
that was identified as Saxony.
Devon

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[lace] Saxony Lace

[devonthein]

Personally, I think the size is quite comparable to late 19th century
handkerchiefs which is what it is supposed to be. Also, I join with Lyn in
feeling that there isn’t any religious theme. In fact, the lace is a tape
lace that looks almost like Hinjosa in that there are no brides or spaces
between the tapes. Also there are little loopty lous in some places. (I can
share better photos privately, but not publish them on the internet.)
Devon

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Re: [lace] Saxony Lace

[Sue Duckles]

I also would think it's a chalice cloth. It certainly strikes me as being one.

Sue in East Yorkshire

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RE: [lace] Saxony lace

[Lorelei Halley]

Devon
This is another frustrating museum photo. There is not enough detail to say
anything about its structure. There were some 17th c laces that looked like
tape but were actually continuous/straight. The large amount of what looks
like torchon ground is what makes me question the tape lace ID.   Gr !
Photos like this one are basically useless, except for insurance purposes, I
suppose. It's not your fault.
Lorelei

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
dmt11h...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 2:10 PM
To: Arachne <lace@arachne.com>
Subject: [lace] Saxony lace

There is a handkerchief located at
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/215260?sortBy=Relevancef
t
=08.180.911offset=0rpp=20pos=1
It says it was made in Saxony, Germany. But it looks like a tape lace of
possibly Eastern European origin. An explanation says it is b

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Re: [lace] Saxony Lace

[lacel...@frontier.com]

>  The cloth area did not need
>to be very big, and the lace is wide to look especially beautiful  Of

>course, there is no size reference in the picture

Ooops!  I didn't scroll down.  The item is listed at 15", so the fabric is 
about 7" and the lace 3" wide.  That is definitely not antique handkerchief 
dimensions.  I stick with my idea of it being a chalice cover.

Alice in Oregon

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Re: [lace] Saxony Lace

[lacel...@frontier.com]

There were tape laces being made in Germany as well as other eastern European
countries.  I couldn't see the picture well enough to take a guess as to
origin.
However -- it does look like an item made for church use -- namely, to cover
the chalice or the 'bread' when not being used.  The cloth area did not need
to be very big, and the lace is wide to look especially beautiful.  Of
course, there is no size reference in the picture so my guess of the size may
be wrong.  Handkerchiefs of the time were extremely large (15-20" of fabric)
so that proportion of lace would have made it into a tablecloth.  This is
more likely an altar accessory.
Alice in Oregon -- where we are eagerly anticipating three nice days before
the next storm


On Friday, February 10, 2017 12:38 PM, "devonth...@gmail.com"
 wrote:


 Sorry, I forgot and sent this by my AOL account. Here it is from Gmail.
There is a handkerchief located at
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/215260?sortBy=Relevance
=08.180.911offset=0rpp=20pos=1
It says it was made in Saxony, Germany. But it looks like a tape lace of
possibly Eastern European origin. An explanation says it is
“Church� lace.
It is clearly a handkerchief and there is nothing about it that would suggest
ecclesiastical use. Is “Church� lace a term of art that anyone is
familiar
with, especially as it may relate to Saxony, Germany?
Devon


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[lace] Saxony Lace

[devonthein]

Sorry, I forgot and sent this by my AOL account. Here it is from Gmail.
There is a handkerchief located at
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/215260?sortBy=Relevanceft
=08.180.911offset=0rpp=20pos=1
It says it was made in Saxony, Germany. But it looks like a tape lace of
possibly Eastern European origin. An explanation says it is “Church” lace.
It is clearly a handkerchief and there is nothing about it that would suggest
ecclesiastical use. Is “Church” lace a term of art that anyone is familiar
with, especially as it may relate to Saxony, Germany?
Devon


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arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
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[lace] Saxony lace

[dmt11home]

There is a handkerchief located at
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/215260?sortBy=Relevanceft
=08.180.911offset=0rpp=20pos=1
It says it was made in Saxony, Germany. But it looks like a tape lace of
possibly Eastern European origin. An explanation says it is “Church” lace.
It is clearly a handkerchief and there is nothing about it that would suggest
ecclesiastical use. Is “Church” lace a term of art that anyone is familiar
with, especially as it may relate to Saxony, Germany?
Devon

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