Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Amy Mills]

I am a classically trained musician (guitar, trumpet, flute, other misc.)
so I read music very well. I'm still very much new to lacemaking, but to
make a relatively simple analogy - the pattern could easily be considered a
score, and the various stitches required to make the various parts of the
lace compared to the different values of notes, the number of stitches a
form of subdivision?

I would also certainly argue that music making does require numeracy,
especially reading music, but over time the math required to understand how
to make music becomes deeply internalized and you don't generally
consciously think about it. There are of course exceptions in exceptionally
complex music, or music in an odd time signature, polyrhythmic music etc.
Though outside of classical music, once you reach a certain level of
mastery even these super complex forms are really felt more than rigorously
counted. I would imagine this is the same with lacemaking?


On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi <
shg...@mail.harvard.edu> wrote:

> I will raise my hand about music-making and needlework. I play Bach on a
> string instrument, and to my mind, the patterns that make sense when
> sight-reading musical counterpoint make the same intuitive rhythms in my
> mind (internal ear? mind's eye?) as the growing symmetries and dissonances
> of lace when looked at up close.
>
> I *also* have brain-based math learning disabilities, along with some other
> neural challenges.  Somehow reading non-syllabic writing systems are easy
> for me, but numeracy demands some other cognitive effort.
>
> To be precise, then, I would say that the part of music-making, sight
> reading counterpoint, being able to make sense of knitting and lace
> notation, has to do with comfort with discrete intervals in relation to one
> another -- nothing to do with numeracy as such.
>
> Hmmm I wonder if I agree with myself. Does numeracy -- that is, being able
> to manipulate numbers -- include being able to slice intervals into smaller
> bits? I'm thinking of how musicians think about note-value, that is, the
> duration of each note, that is, a quarter note is one beat in 4/4 time, a
> dotted quarter note is one and a half note, etc.
>
> If you are following me so far, what in lace making would correspond to
> being able to execute note values in music-making?
>
> On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 9:18 AM, David C Collyer 
> wrote:
>
> > G'day Nancy,
> >
> > It would be interesting to do a survey of the bobbin-lacemaking members
> of
> > IOLI about area of education, highest degree obtained and when, career
> > field, types of bobbin lace specialized in, maybe things like primarily
> > self-taught or not, others?, and compare the stats from that to stats
> >
> > Along with that I think it would be interesting to include such things as
> > ability to read music, play an instrument, sing in a choir etc. I just
> have
> > a feeling that many of us do.
> > David in Ballarat, AUS
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
> > unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to
> > arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
> >
>
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>



-- 
Amy Mills
amymills.net
3473430956

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi]

I will raise my hand about music-making and needlework. I play Bach on a
string instrument, and to my mind, the patterns that make sense when
sight-reading musical counterpoint make the same intuitive rhythms in my
mind (internal ear? mind's eye?) as the growing symmetries and dissonances
of lace when looked at up close.

I *also* have brain-based math learning disabilities, along with some other
neural challenges.  Somehow reading non-syllabic writing systems are easy
for me, but numeracy demands some other cognitive effort.

To be precise, then, I would say that the part of music-making, sight
reading counterpoint, being able to make sense of knitting and lace
notation, has to do with comfort with discrete intervals in relation to one
another -- nothing to do with numeracy as such.

Hmmm I wonder if I agree with myself. Does numeracy -- that is, being able
to manipulate numbers -- include being able to slice intervals into smaller
bits? I'm thinking of how musicians think about note-value, that is, the
duration of each note, that is, a quarter note is one beat in 4/4 time, a
dotted quarter note is one and a half note, etc.

If you are following me so far, what in lace making would correspond to
being able to execute note values in music-making?

On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 9:18 AM, David C Collyer 
wrote:

> G'day Nancy,
>
> It would be interesting to do a survey of the bobbin-lacemaking members of
> IOLI about area of education, highest degree obtained and when, career
> field, types of bobbin lace specialized in, maybe things like primarily
> self-taught or not, others?, and compare the stats from that to stats
>
> Along with that I think it would be interesting to include such things as
> ability to read music, play an instrument, sing in a choir etc. I just have
> a feeling that many of us do.
> David in Ballarat, AUS
>
> -
> To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
> unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to
> arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
>

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RE: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[David C Collyer]

G'day Nancy,

It would be interesting to do a survey of the bobbin-lacemaking members of
IOLI about area of education, highest degree obtained and when, career
field, types of bobbin lace specialized in, maybe things like primarily
self-taught or not, others?, and compare the stats from that to stats 

Along with that I think it would be interesting to include such things as
ability to read music, play an instrument, sing in a choir etc. I just have
a feeling that many of us do.
David in Ballarat, AUS

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[robinlace]

I'm not 100 percent convinced of a math/engineering link with bobbin lace.  
First of all, I noticed years ago a lot of other sciences in 
lacemaking--biology (my field), chemistry, psychology, etc.  Also science 
fiction fanatics who never went into science (or math, computers, etc.).  I 
think of it more as "inquiring minds" and "puzzle solvers" than a particular 
field of study.  The only rocket scientist I've met is a quilter, with no 
interest in bobbin lace.

Second, I consider myself strongly right-brained, although I have enough 
left-brain function to not be "out in left field" like a few severely 
right-brained individuals I've known.  Don't give me a verbal description of 
what you want me to know, the words get totally in the way of my understanding. 
 Give me a map or a flow chart and I've got it in a second.  I believe any 
field of information has an underlying logic structure; if you see that 
structure the field is easy for you, if you don't see it you have to really 
work at getting the hang of it.  I failed miserably the section of chemistry on 
enzyme kinetics, I could not solve a single equation, although I could follow 
any demonstrations and see why the did what they did.  I've met people who can 
not "get" basic probability, no matter how many people tried to help them.  
When I first met bobbin lace (torchon) it was so logical I picked it right up.  
To me it's all about finding paths, which to me is mapmaking and spatial !
 relations = right-brain functions rather than math and logic which are 
left-brain functions.

I second the suggestion that someone (not me) do a survey of  lacemakers with 
STEM interest and/or training (not everyone who's fascinated with geology gets 
a geology degree) as well as other fields of endeavor.  The results would be 
most fascinating.

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
robinl...@socal.rr.com

Parvum leve mentes capiunt
(Little things amuse little minds)

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[N.A. Neff]

Hi Elena,

It would be interesting to do a survey of the bobbin-lacemaking members of
IOLI about area of education, highest degree obtained and when, career
field, types of bobbin lace specialized in, maybe things like primarily
self-taught or not, others?, and compare the stats from that to stats from
the Dept of Labor and other US government agencies for a comparable
population (age distribution, income perhaps, etc.) I realize this would be
US-centric, but I'm not sure if OIDFA membership would be as representative
a sample. Statistical analysis would be relatively straightforward once one
figured out to discretize and categorize the data--the devil is in the
details of the latter task! If you do it, my unsolicited advice is to frame
lots of hypotheses first and work really hard on getting the survey
questionnaire right relative to those hypotheses. I hope you pursue it!!

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

On Sat, May 19, 2018, 22:20 Elena wrote
...considered researching it further for a possible article topic...

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Elena Kanagy-Loux]

Hello all,

The seemingly natural attraction of those in the STEM field to lacemaking
has fascinated me for some time. I remember attending Ithaca Lace Day a
couple of years ago and after repeatedly hearing that so-and-so was a
mathematician or scientist, and I was intrigued by the connection. My
explanation for bobbin lace structure to the uninitiated is that it's like
a circuit board - you have figure out how to connect pairs of bobbins
across your pillow. I think this is a fertile subject and have personally
considered researching it further for a possible article topic.

Best,
Elena

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[N.A. Neff]

A few observations:

First there were indeed computer engineers who were lacemakers in the
1980s. I started programming in the mid-1960s (well before PCs or Macs or
the Internet), and I was mesmerized by making bobbin lace from the first
time I saw it done in the mid-1980s. For the first several years, I taught
myself from books, Torchon, Bucks, and a little tape lace to start, later
Flanders and Binche. Bobbin lace has always made intuitive sense to me.

This much is entirely anecdotal, but when I'm working on a difficult piece
of lace, especially Binche, it feels the same in my head as when I'm
designing an algorithm or working out how to code one as a software
engineer. I can't explain it any better than that, certainly I can't really
describe what it "feels" like, but I do know that software design and
bobbin lacemaking feel the same to me, and not like anything else.
(Including not needlelace or tatting or any other kind of lacemaking.)

Finally, I do think there is some mathematical basis for my subjective
experience. Back in 2002 I heard in a computer science seminar a passing
reference to a branch of topology (a type of mathematics) called braid
theory, citing it as a possible mechanism for information storage and
retrieval. More exciting to me, I recognized cross and twist in the
diagrams shown briefly in the seminar. Braid theory statements and bobbin
lace are mathematically equivalent. Look up braid theory in Wikipedia. Also
do a search on Veronika Irvine on the Web (tesselace.com). She published a
paper in 2014, and subsequently did a PhD dissertation, on this
equivalence, including generating new bobbin lace grounds by computer.

Now I agree with Adele, that all this is not saying that only maths whizzes
can do bobbin lace, but I do think there are a suspiciously high proportion
of math and computer science types in the lacemaking world. Also,
self-reporting of an inability to do math and computer science is suspect
to me. It's nerdy and not cool to be good in those fields, but humans have
an innate mathematical ability just like we have language ability, and
little kids take to programming and algorithm development like ducks to
water. (That metaphor is deliberately chosen.)

So in summary, I firmly believe that there is a relationship there, based
both on personal subjective experience and on recent technical developments.

Nancy
Connecticut,  USA

On Sat, May 19, 2018, 12:55 Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi 
wrote:

> ...some of the
> finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes
> intuitive sense...
> ...Knowing something about
> math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you)...
>

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Adele Shaak]

It seems to me that lacemaking provides many things to many people. Small 
children can learn simple Torchon patterns quite easily. Adults with no 
particular math skills may make lace their whole lives without ever finding a 
need to go dig out their trig tables (yes, I know that dates me, but you know 
what I mean). However lacemaking is the only craft I’ve every participated in 
where, at the advanced levels, I keep running into engineers and math whizzes 
and rocket scientists. Honestly! Rocket scientists! Well, I suppose they have 
to do something with their spare time.

My anecdote about this, is a lacemaker I know, a math whiz. Many people have 
problems with the Flanders ground, and for various reasons Flanders is often 
considered advanced. She asked “what is Flanders Ground”, took one look at a 
picture, said “right you are” and proceeded to start making perfect Flanders. I 
think it is that intuitive understanding that leads these people into 
lacemaking and makes the more complex laces more desirable for them.

Now, before everybody goes ballistic - I am not saying that you can’t make 
Flanders or Binche or any other of the more advanced laces if you don’t have 
good math skills. I’m just saying that people who do have good math skills may 
be drawn to that type of lace.

Adele
West Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)'




18, at 9:50 AM, Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi  wrote:
> 
> Friends
> 
> Both Devon and Alex Stillwell have pointed out to me that some of the
> finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes
> intuitive sense.
> I have a math learning disability so I wouldn't be able to follow more than
> superficially, but allowing for that, does anyone have any anecdotes or
> observations that would be good to know about?
> 
> I ought to mention that poor old Bobby is endlessly queried -- tacitly as
> well as openly -- if he is gay. One of the themes I am exploring is what
> appears to be the problem of Bobby's masculinity. Knowing something about
> math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you), would be an
> interesting wrinkle since in the United States, math and computers are
> coded as masculine activities.
> 
> (The latter is not a universal gender-category. In Iran, for example, math

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Kathleen Harris]

Marjory Carter, who I mentioned as my Bucks point tutor, had been a maths 
teacher in a grammar school, until she retired. She learned her lace from a 
lady with whom she lodged when she was training as a teacher. I started to take 
courses with her in 1980, so I guess she would have retired in 1975 after 
40years of teaching. These dates are guesses, but cannot be far out, I hope.

Sent from my iPad

> On 19 May 2018, at 17:50, Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi  
> wrote:
> 
> Friends
> 
> Both Devon and Alex Stillwell have pointed out to me that some of the
> finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes
> intuitive sense.
> I have a math learning disability so I wouldn't be able to follow more than
> superficially, but allowing for that, does anyone have any anecdotes or
> observations that would be good to know about?
> 
> I ought to mention that poor old Bobby is endlessly queried -- tacitly as
> well as openly -- if he is gay. One of the themes I am exploring is what
> appears to be the problem of Bobby's masculinity. Knowing something about
> math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you), would be an
> interesting wrinkle since in the United States, math and computers are
> coded as masculine activities.
> 
> (The latter is not a universal gender-category. In Iran, for example, math
> and engineering are distinctly *not* coded as masculine.)
> 
> Sharon
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
> unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to
> arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/

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[lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Anita Hansen]

I have heard this mentioned before too that many lacemakers are in these 
fields. I, myself, have a Mathmatics degree and worked as a software engineer 
for 20+ years. However, I really don’t think my math skills have anything to do 
with my ability to make lace.  I sorely lack in artistic skills (the other side 
of the brain) and greatly admire the lacemakers who are also designers. Yes, I 
can implement their designs (Binche is my favorite) with adequate instruction.  
I think if you replace “engineer” and “mathematician” with other professions 
you will also find many lacemakers that fit those categories as well. People 
also say math folks are good with music not me!
Anita Hansen
Cedar Rapids, Iowa

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[lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi]

Friends

Both Devon and Alex Stillwell have pointed out to me that some of the
finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes
intuitive sense.
I have a math learning disability so I wouldn't be able to follow more than
superficially, but allowing for that, does anyone have any anecdotes or
observations that would be good to know about?

I ought to mention that poor old Bobby is endlessly queried -- tacitly as
well as openly -- if he is gay. One of the themes I am exploring is what
appears to be the problem of Bobby's masculinity. Knowing something about
math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you), would be an
interesting wrinkle since in the United States, math and computers are
coded as masculine activities.

(The latter is not a universal gender-category. In Iran, for example, math
and engineering are distinctly *not* coded as masculine.)

Sharon

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