Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
Am 27.02.2012 21:02, schrieb Marco van de Voort: On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 02:53:21PM +0100, Sven Barth wrote: http://rpmfind.net/ Found 157 RPM for fpc Found 3 RPM for gpc (all of them in very old Mandriva versions) You can't even find GPC packages in newer distributions. See also: http://pkgs.org/search/?keyword=gpc Appears in Ubuntu 10. Disappeared from Ubuntu 11 Also according to the GNU Pascal site it seems to only support GCC4 with the last release being from 2006. I can't tell how valid this observations are (I didn't find a source repository by quickly looking), so please handle with care. While GPC is not very active atm, and a case could be made that it is dead, these kinds of statistics are not very comparable. This because GPC has a totally different release and development model (read: none since 2.1), and nearly all builds are independent build of target-maintainers, that often also keep own source trees, and mutually absorb patches. It is very difficult to compare this with FPC, that actively pushes distribution specific releases (deb, rpm, freebsd ports). That's why I wrote please handle with care ;) Regards, Sven -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
My company also tried (and abandoned) Kylix: http://port2laz.blogspot.com/2005/12/from-clx-to-vcl.html 2012/2/28 zeljko zel...@holobit.net ** On Tuesday 28 of February 2012 08:23:35 Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: I'm not saying Kylix 3 is still a booming product (it isn't), I'm just saying that some companies invested heavily in Kylix or CLX development, and simply can't move away from it. My company also invested a lot into kylix, but successfully moved to lazarus qtlcl :) zeljko -- Atenciosamente, Alexsander da Rosa http://rednaxel.com -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
Same here. Kylix had a great debugger, something that still doesnt work nice in Lazarus, but other than that Lazarus is exceptional and the support is very good. Try to get any support out of Borland and their successors. Even earlier years before Delphi, they failed to fix RT-200 for pentium and above processors. Easy fix that will take a few minutes, but they rather decided to ignore all their customers. Lazarus and Free Pascal is just dandy. Alexsander Rosa wrote: My company also tried (and abandoned) Kylix: http://port2laz.blogspot.com/2005/12/from-clx-to-vcl.html -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 08:35:55AM +0100, Michael Schnell wrote: dead, They (unfortunately) did not follow FPC on the path to Object Pascal (Delphi and Apple style). If FPC programs could be compiled using gcc, we could port Lazarus / FPC programs to any CPU architecture. More likely, we would, like GPC, have a worthless windows port, and constantly fixing the breakage introduced by new gcc versions. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
[Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants? Is it Free Pascal? -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Vincent Snijders vincent.snijd...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, in Linux FPC should have 99%+ of the Pascal market share. Lazarus itself also has at least 95%+ of the IDE/framework marketshare. Maybe it should, but what makes you think it has 'in fact' such a share? Do you know any other Pascal compiler for Linux which competes seriously against FPC? Any big or medium sized project uses that compiler? Kylix is dead. GNU Pascal is almost dead. So there is not much competition left. An indirect measure: check http://www.ohloh.net/ All top Pascal developers for non-Windows projects are using FPC, actually most of the top ones are Lazarus developers. Another indirect measure: All Pascal projects which appeared in the Linux Questions Awards were built in FPC. All but 1 FPC projects there are build using Lazarus+LCL. Another indirect measure: Put pascal compiler linux in Google. I see only mentions of FPC and GNU Pascal (which is almost dead so can hardly count). -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On 27/02/12 11:29, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote: On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Vincent Snijders vincent.snijd...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, in Linux FPC should have 99%+ of the Pascal market share. Lazarus itself also has at least 95%+ of the IDE/framework marketshare. Maybe it should, but what makes you think it has 'in fact' such a share? Do you know any other Pascal compiler for Linux which competes seriously against FPC? Any big or medium sized project uses that compiler? Kylix is dead. GNU Pascal is almost dead. So there is not much competition left. An indirect measure: check http://www.ohloh.net/ All top Pascal developers for non-Windows projects are using FPC, actually most of the top ones are Lazarus developers. Another indirect measure: All Pascal projects which appeared in the Linux Questions Awards were built in FPC. All but 1 FPC projects there are build using Lazarus+LCL. Another indirect measure: Put pascal compiler linux in Google. I see only mentions of FPC and GNU Pascal (which is almost dead so can hardly count). I think Vincent is asking where you got the numbers you quoted. Or did you just make them up? I.e. citation needed. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Henry Vermaak henry.verm...@gmail.com wrote: I think Vincent is asking where you got the numbers you quoted. Or did you just make them up? I.e. citation needed. I invented the numbers. But if anyone thinks they are not realistic, just get the download numbers for FPC and Lazarus, compare with other competing projects, and prove me wrong. (actually I just took a look and based on what I see I would increase my estimate of the Lazarus share to 99%+ too) -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On 27/02/12 11:45, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote: On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Henry Vermaakhenry.verm...@gmail.com wrote: I think Vincent is asking where you got the numbers you quoted. Or did you just make them up? I.e. citation needed. I invented the numbers. But if anyone thinks they are not realistic, just get the download numbers for FPC and Lazarus, compare with other competing projects, and prove me wrong. No, that's not how it works. You have to prove it because you stated it. Otherwise I can say stuff like in the center of the earth lives a dragon named Fred, if you don't think that's correct, you are free to prove me wrong. NB: I'm not doubting the popularity of fpc/lazarus, but you can't just make up statistics. Henry -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
Op 27 februari 2012 12:45 heeft Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho felipemonteiro.carva...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Henry Vermaak henry.verm...@gmail.com wrote: I think Vincent is asking where you got the numbers you quoted. Or did you just make them up? I.e. citation needed. I invented the numbers. But if anyone thinks they are not realistic, just get the download numbers for FPC and Lazarus, compare with other competing projects, and prove me wrong. On debian, it is not so popular compared with gpc: Look at http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=fpc and http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=gpc-4.1 I'd say fpc is about 3-4 (and not 20-100) times as popular based on these figures, so fpc holding maximum 80% of the market share. Vincent -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012, Vincent Snijders wrote: Op 27 februari 2012 12:45 heeft Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho felipemonteiro.carva...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Henry Vermaak henry.verm...@gmail.com wrote: I think Vincent is asking where you got the numbers you quoted. Or did you just make them up? I.e. citation needed. I invented the numbers. But if anyone thinks they are not realistic, just get the download numbers for FPC and Lazarus, compare with other competing projects, and prove me wrong. On debian, it is not so popular compared with gpc: Look at http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=fpc and http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=gpc-4.1 Huh ? The way I read it, it's exactly opposite ? Inst number: fp-compiler has 1043, (0,85%), gpc has 353 (0,29%) ? Votes: fp-compiler has 183, gpc has 47 In each case, it's not a very clear statistic by any standards. Michael.-- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
Op 27 februari 2012 13:18 heeft michael.vancann...@wisa.be het volgende geschreven: On Mon, 27 Feb 2012, Vincent Snijders wrote: Op 27 februari 2012 12:45 heeft Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho felipemonteiro.carva...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Henry Vermaak henry.verm...@gmail.com wrote: I think Vincent is asking where you got the numbers you quoted. Or did you just make them up? I.e. citation needed. I invented the numbers. But if anyone thinks they are not realistic, just get the download numbers for FPC and Lazarus, compare with other competing projects, and prove me wrong. On debian, it is not so popular compared with gpc: With 'not *so* popular' I meant having 95 or 99% of the market share. Look at http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=fpc and http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=gpc-4.1 Huh ? The way I read it, it's exactly opposite ? Inst number: fp-compiler has 1043, (0,85%), gpc has 353 (0,29%) ? Votes: fp-compiler has 183, gpc has 47 In each case, it's not a very clear statistic by any standards. No, but it is better than nothing. Vincent -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012, Vincent Snijders wrote: Op 27 februari 2012 13:18 heeft michael.vancann...@wisa.be het volgende geschreven: On Mon, 27 Feb 2012, Vincent Snijders wrote: Op 27 februari 2012 12:45 heeft Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho felipemonteiro.carva...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Henry Vermaak henry.verm...@gmail.com wrote: I think Vincent is asking where you got the numbers you quoted. Or did you just make them up? I.e. citation needed. I invented the numbers. But if anyone thinks they are not realistic, just get the download numbers for FPC and Lazarus, compare with other competing projects, and prove me wrong. On debian, it is not so popular compared with gpc: With 'not *so* popular' I meant having 95 or 99% of the market share. Ehm, market share of what ? Pascal compilers ? In that case, it's FPC 74 % versus gpc 26 %, which I think is not so bad ? Of course, total world domination is still far off ;-) Michael.-- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On 27 February 2012 13:29, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote: Kylix is dead. Some products just know know when to die, do they? ;-) I actually know of quite a few commercial applications still written with Kylix today. Beyond Compare 3 from Scooter Software would be an obvious one. The fact is (as Henry indicated), one can't just imagine a number. Statistics don't work that way. It's the same as those people that keep on saying that Linux only has 1% market share. How do they know? There are no OEM numbers for all Linux distros. I download my ISO images and share them to many many people. We don't register with some company or website to be counted. So that 1% figure is pure speculation! South Africa has many Freedom Toasters, where you bring your own CD's or DVD's and copy any free and open source software at no cost. Last I read (from a leaked report to Borland and Embarcadero - I can try and find that link again), Borland sold a couple million copies or Kylix (excluding the Open Edition which you could download for free). I'm pretty sure some of those copies are still in use today. I also host a copy of Kylix 3 Open Edition on some file share website. It was downloaded 70+ times last year, even though I put a notice to say they should try Free Pascal and Lazarus instead. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://fpgui.sourceforge.net -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On 27 February 2012 13:53, Henry Vermaak wrote: NB: I'm not doubting the popularity of fpc/lazarus, but you can't just make up statistics. +1 on both counts. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://fpgui.sourceforge.net -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
Op 27 februari 2012 13:30 heeft michael.vancann...@wisa.be het volgende geschreven: Op 27 februari 2012 12:45 heeft Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho felipemonteiro.carva...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: With 'not *so* popular' I meant having 95 or 99% of the market share. Ehm, market share of what ? Pascal compilers ? In that case, it's FPC 74 % versus gpc 26 %, which I think is not so bad ? I agree. I disagree, or a better: I seriously doubt what Felipe wrote: in Linux FPC should have 99%+ of the Pascal market share. Lazarus itself also has at least 95%+ of the IDE/framework marketshare. Vincent -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
Take a look at any RPM package search page: http://rpmfind.net/ Found 157 RPM for fpc Found 3 RPM for gpc (all of them in very old Mandriva versions) You can't even find GPC packages in newer distributions. See also: http://pkgs.org/search/?keyword=gpc Appears in Ubuntu 10. Disappeared from Ubuntu 11 -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
Am 27.02.2012 14:47, schrieb Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho: Take a look at any RPM package search page: http://rpmfind.net/ Found 157 RPM for fpc Found 3 RPM for gpc (all of them in very old Mandriva versions) You can't even find GPC packages in newer distributions. See also: http://pkgs.org/search/?keyword=gpc Appears in Ubuntu 10. Disappeared from Ubuntu 11 Also according to the GNU Pascal site it seems to only support GCC 4 with the last release being from 2006. I can't tell how valid this observations are (I didn't find a source repository by quickly looking), so please handle with care. Regards, Sven -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On 27 February 2012 10:15, Frank Church vfcli...@gmail.com wrote: What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants? Is it Free Pascal? -- Frank Church What license are FPC and Lazarus, are they GPL? I think somehow a way must be found of getting Pascal identified with Free Pascal on the Linux platform if it is the most widely used. How about Lazarus Pascal. The problem with Free Pascal, actually most of the older languages is that there tend to be many variations and some what different dialects. There is more or less only one Ruby, one Python, one PHP, one Scala, you know whatever. There are a few variants of Ruby but so long as they can all run Ruby on Rails who cares? This how I see things. 1. Establish Free Pascal as THE Pascal, THE Object (based) Pascal on Linux 2. A way must be found of uncoupling the Free Pascal, the LCL, the FCL and the Lazarus IDE. 3. The Lazarus IDE (which should be the killer app) must be clearly distinguished. a) as Pascal IDE , ie dealing purely with Pascal Source code, b) an IDE that integrates well with the Non Visual aspects of the LCL e.g. fcl-web for instance c) a graphic based IDE akin to Delphi 4. Both WIKIs are need a makeover. I am sure this has been discussed before :), but the image is really important. Far lesser projects somehow project a more 'professional' image just because of their websites. Lazarus wiki is like the Foyles bookshop of the past if not the present,or like some kind of army surplus store. You can find nearly everything you want, probably everything but it is not as organized and as slick as the competition. A lot of the websites of other projects hardly contain anything, but they all look modern and up to date. 5. This requires an increase in the uptake of Pascal. I mean if a language like D can get so much attention and have libraries being created for it why can't Pascal which has been longer established. 6. I guess one major shortcoming of Pascal is it is not immediately identified with objects, like C. Can Free Pascal simply change its name to Object Pascal Honestly I think the name is probably the biggest problem if in an era of objects everything it is not associated with Pascal due to its age and past. In short how does Pascal get itself restablished? === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
Am 27.02.2012 15:14, schrieb Frank Church: What license are FPC and Lazarus, are they GPL? The compiler and the IDE themselves are GPL, but their libraries (RTL, FCL, LCL) are released under a modified LGPL (to allow static linking in commercial projects) 2. A way must be found of uncoupling the Free Pascal, the LCL, the FCL and the Lazarus IDE. FPC and Lazarus are already rather decoupled. They basically only share the Wiki, bug tracker and the SVN server (and some developers ^^). 4. Both WIKIs are need a makeover. I am sure this has been discussed before :), but the image is really important. Far lesser projects somehow project a more 'professional' image just because of their websites. Lazarus wiki is like the Foyles bookshop of the past if not the present,or like some kind of army surplus store. You can find nearly everything you want, probably everything but it is not as organized and as slick as the competition. A lot of the websites of other projects hardly contain anything, but they all look modern and up to date. In that case I prefer contains everything and does not look modern ;) 5. This requires an increase in the uptake of Pascal. I mean if a language like D can get so much attention and have libraries being created for it why can't Pascal which has been longer established. Because a) Pascal is an old language. It's not stylish and cool to write in an old language except it's C b) The original Pascal was designed as a lerner language and this is still present in the minds. Thus most people (if they don't know Delphi) think of Pascal as a top language that you can't do any serious programming in 6. I guess one major shortcoming of Pascal is it is not immediately identified with objects, like C. Can Free Pascal simply change its name to Object Pascal The name Free Pascal has already been established as some kind of Trademark. Also Object Pascal is already the name of the dialect FPC supports (and it does not only support Object Pascal, but also the Turbo Pascal and MacPascal dialects). So I personally consider it a really bad idea to change its name. Honestly I think the name is probably the biggest problem if in an era of objects everything it is not associated with Pascal due to its age and past. In short how does Pascal get itself restablished? If a project can not stand out by its name (as you assume for Free Pascal) it must rely on other things (features) like stability, performance, portability, etc. To increase the perceiption of FPC in the public one needs to do advertising. I myself have printed me a FPC T-Shirt and like to run around in that very often (especially at university to oppose the omnipresent Java ;) ). Regards, Sven -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
2012/2/27 Frank Church vfcli...@gmail.com: 1. Establish Free Pascal as THE Pascal, THE Object (based) Pascal on Linux While I disagree that any serious competition to FPC exists in Linux, you should know that FPC has never been monopolist. Competition is widely seen as something good. Having more good Object Pascal compilers would be good. 2. A way must be found of uncoupling the Free Pascal, the LCL, the FCL and the Lazarus IDE. So you are suggesting to make it harder to configure as a step towards higher popularity? 4. Both WIKIs are need a makeover. There is only 1 wiki and I think it is quite good. All necessary information is quickly accessible. A beginner can very quickly get a quick start on almost any topic. In short how does Pascal get itself restablished? I think that everything possible in the world about this topic has already been said in this thread: http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,13754.0.html -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 02:14:07PM +, Frank Church wrote: dialects. There is more or less only one Ruby, And which one is that, JRuby(*), IronRuby(**), or Ruby-on-parrot(***))? (*) http://www.jruby.org Reworked On top of Java (*) http://ironruby.net/ reworekd on top of .NET (**) http://cardinal2.rubyforge.org/ reworked on top of Parrot VM ( :-) ) -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 03:59:35PM +0100, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote: 2012/2/27 Frank Church vfcli...@gmail.com: 1. Establish Free Pascal as THE Pascal, THE Object (based) Pascal on Linux While I disagree that any serious competition to FPC exists in Linux, you should know that FPC has never been monopolist. Competition is widely seen as something good. Having more good Object Pascal compilers would be good. If the rumours are correct, Embarcadero might enter the Linux market again in august-september, but again a crosscompile product. At least that was how the roadmap during the XE2 introduction sounded, next edition native ARM (iOS and maybe Android) and expansion of the i386/x86_64 compiler to Linux. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 02:53:21PM +0100, Sven Barth wrote: http://rpmfind.net/ Found 157 RPM for fpc Found 3 RPM for gpc (all of them in very old Mandriva versions) You can't even find GPC packages in newer distributions. See also: http://pkgs.org/search/?keyword=gpc Appears in Ubuntu 10. Disappeared from Ubuntu 11 Also according to the GNU Pascal site it seems to only support GCC 4 with the last release being from 2006. I can't tell how valid this observations are (I didn't find a source repository by quickly looking), so please handle with care. While GPC is not very active atm, and a case could be made that it is dead, these kinds of statistics are not very comparable. This because GPC has a totally different release and development model (read: none since 2.1), and nearly all builds are independent build of target-maintainers, that often also keep own source trees, and mutually absorb patches. It is very difficult to compare this with FPC, that actively pushes distribution specific releases (deb, rpm, freebsd ports). -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On 27 February 2012 22:48, Marco van de Voort wrote: I'm not sure if products that hinge on the last version of a series are really relevant. My point was more about the fact that Scooter Software has applied there own fixes to CLX, and have also upgraded their Kylix 3 to use Qt3 (instead of Qt 2.3 which came with Kylix). If they shared all there Kylix enhancements, I have no idea. I also know there is a huge bunch of unofficial fixes that can be installed over Kylix 3. So at least the framework around Kylix has grown, after is was considered to be dead. Also, Kylix 3 is still perfectly fine for web development work. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://fpgui.sourceforge.net -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On 2/27/2012 4:21 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: My point was more about the fact that Scooter Software has applied there own fixes to CLX, and have also upgraded their Kylix 3 to use Qt3 (instead of Qt 2.3 which came with Kylix). Actually, the upgrade to Qt 3 was Andreas Hausladen's doing, and he did release it, but it isn't available online anymore. It was an impressive piece of work, and I think it laid the groundwork for Lazarus' Qt support, since I remember seeing Zeljan's name associated with it too. We do have a shocking number of fixes on top of it though. If they shared all there Kylix enhancements, I have no idea. No, we haven't. Borland screwed up the Kylix community project, and Andreas stopped maintaining the unofficial patches at the same time, so there isn't anywhere for us to share them. So at least the framework around Kylix has grown, after is was considered to be dead. It was considered dead, and then the Kylix community project and Borland's poor handling of Simon Kissel's cross-compiler killed it completely. Also, Kylix 3 is still perfectly fine for web development work. I'm not aware of any Linux distro post-2006 that runs the IDE, and even then you needed a hack to debug threads. We would have given it up years ago, but I thought Delphi's cross-platform support would use Qt right up until they purchased VGScene. I'm sure there are a few other holdouts, but there's certainly no community anymore. Before they removed it, the .kylix newsgroup's last post was in 2008 or so. -- Craig Peterson Scooter Software -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On Monday 27 of February 2012 23:21:31 Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: On 27 February 2012 22:48, Marco van de Voort wrote: I'm not sure if products that hinge on the last version of a series are really relevant. My point was more about the fact that Scooter Software has applied there own fixes to CLX, and have also upgraded their Kylix 3 to use Qt3 (instead of Qt 2.3 which came with Kylix). If they shared all there Kylix enhancements, I have no idea. I also know there is a huge bunch of unofficial fixes that can be installed over Kylix 3. So at least the framework around Kylix has grown, after is was considered to be dead. Also, Kylix 3 is still perfectly fine for web development work. While there are updates for K3 + Qt3 support (even I contributed and used that) there's another problem: you cannot run K3 on any distro with glibc = 2.4, and that's problem (so it must be at least 6-7 yrs old distro). zeljko -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On Tuesday 28 of February 2012 00:58:20 Craig Peterson wrote: On 2/27/2012 4:21 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: My point was more about the fact that Scooter Software has applied there own fixes to CLX, and have also upgraded their Kylix 3 to use Qt3 (instead of Qt 2.3 which came with Kylix). Actually, the upgrade to Qt 3 was Andreas Hausladen's doing, and he did release it, but it isn't available online anymore. It was an impressive piece of work, and I think it laid the groundwork for Lazarus' Qt support, since I remember seeing Zeljan's name associated with it too. Yes, I was involved in Qt3 support for Kylix, but it have nothing to do with lazarus qtlcl , since Qt3 used different (and better approach IMO) to generate C bindings. You get all clasees (even protected methods), so overriding was piece of cake - and yes K3/Qt3 apps were snappy and stable :) We do have a shocking number of fixes on top of it though. If they shared all there Kylix enhancements, I have no idea. No, we haven't. Borland screwed up the Kylix community project, and Andreas stopped maintaining the unofficial patches at the same time, so there isn't anywhere for us to share them. So at least the framework around Kylix has grown, after is was considered to be dead. It was considered dead, and then the Kylix community project and Borland's poor handling of Simon Kissel's cross-compiler killed it completely. Afair, at that time Simon, Andreas and me asked Borland for and NDA .. I was ready to sit down and fix Kylix for free - it costs Borland exactly $0, but they answered after few months that Kylix is not their priority (and that means = dead)all happened after M$ was involved into borland ... after that .Net delphi was out etc etc So Kylix is dead because of political reasons - nothing else. zeljko -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On 28 February 2012 09:02, zeljko zeljko@ wrote: While there are updates for K3 + Qt3 support (even I contributed and used that) there's another problem: you cannot run K3 on any distro with glibc = 2.4, and that's problem (so it must be at least 6-7 yrs old distro). I don't really see that as a problem at all. That issue only relates to the Kylix 3 IDE, not the applications you build with it. I can still run [and do do so] Kylix 3 built applications on my Ubuntu 10.04 64-bit system. Simply use a VM for Kylix 3 development. I currently have a Red Hat 9 VM with Kylix 3 Ent setup for exactly that reason. Hell, Embarcadero is even recommending that for Windows and Mac OS X development! I know of many Delphi developers that run Linux (or Mac OS X), but use a Windows VM to run Delphi - simply to get the stability and virus free environment of Linux when they surf the web or check emails. It also keeps your development environment in a pristine condition. I'm not saying Kylix 3 is still a booming product (it isn't), I'm just saying that some companies invested heavily in Kylix or CLX development, and simply can't move away from it. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://fpgui.sourceforge.net -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On Tuesday 28 of February 2012 08:23:35 Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: I'm not saying Kylix 3 is still a booming product (it isn't), I'm just saying that some companies invested heavily in Kylix or CLX development, and simply can't move away from it. My company also invested a lot into kylix, but successfully moved to lazarus qtlcl :) zeljko -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] What is the most widely used Pascal on Linux and other Unix variants?
On 02/27/2012 09:02 PM, Marco van de Voort wrote: While GPC is not very active atm, and a case could be made that it is dead, They (unfortunately) did not follow FPC on the path to Object Pascal (Delphi and Apple style). If FPC programs could be compiled using gcc, we could port Lazarus / FPC programs to any CPU architecture. -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
