Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-02 Thread Michael Van Canneyt 



On Sat, 2 Apr 2016, Marco van de Voort wrote:


On Fri, Apr 01, 2016 at 08:58:14AM +0200, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

they've learned to love on Linux.


I seriously doubt this will have any effect.

Most (if not all) of their admin tools are GUI based.
That makes scripting them impossibile. Which is the point of scripting.


Most of those are based on COM/WMI and can be scripted very confortably and
OO in powershell.


That's no good to you in bash.

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Marco van de Voort 
On Fri, Apr 01, 2016 at 08:58:14AM +0200, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
> > they've learned to love on Linux.
> 
> I seriously doubt this will have any effect.
> 
> Most (if not all) of their admin tools are GUI based. 
> That makes scripting them impossibile. Which is the point of scripting.

Most of those are based on COM/WMI and can be scripted very confortably and
OO in powershell.
 

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Graeme Geldenhuys 
On 2016-04-01 12:44, Santiago A. wrote:
> 
> Me too, but it would a nice plus if you also give me nice UI.

I guess then you have best of both worlds - at the expense of the
developer that had to implement all that. :)

In fact my mail server (SurgeMail) has exactly what you suggest. I can
edit text config files directly, use a console tool to set values one at
a time, or use the built-in webserver and web interface. No matter what
interface you use, all settings are stored in the same text config files.

I remember from years back, SuSE and OpenSuSE linux distro had some
fancy config tool called YaST, which had a Console and GUI interface for
managing pretty much every service included with the distro. So with
that being said, maybe SuSE is then a good recommendation for any
Windows centric admins moving to Linux.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Santiago A. 
El 01/04/2016 a las 13:19, Graeme Geldenhuys escribió:

> Give me good old text configs any time of the time. Easy to edit, easy
> to backup.
>

Me too, but it would a nice plus if you also give me nice UI.

Although I had sometimes to edit configuration of virtual hosts with
includes etc,  I don't think plesk or cpanel or webmin are bad steps.

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Michael Schnell 

On 04/01/2016 01:23 PM, Sven Barth wrote:


"it" meant the GUI,

I see.  I misunderstood that with "only with Windows Store Apps" you 
wanted to exclude "normal" Windows services.


-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Sven Barth 
Am 01.04.2016 13:21 schrieb "Michael Schnell" :
>
> On 04/01/2016 01:13 PM, Sven Barth wrote:
>>
>>
>> However classical WinAPI can't access it. You can access it only with
Windows Store Apps and then only one at a time. Though you can runs these
platforms headless as well without problems.
>>
> That is not true (and a very common misconception).
>
> A colleague of min already did run Windows services done with Delphi on
Win IoT.
>
> The complete Windows API seems to work if you don't use GUI functions
(which would be called widgets in Linux). Timers and TCP/IP do work .

"it" meant the GUI, WinAPI applications can not access the GUI on IoT
systems. From our past discussions you should know that I know that by now.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Michael Schnell 

On 04/01/2016 01:13 PM, Sven Barth wrote:


However classical WinAPI can't access it. You can access it only with 
Windows Store Apps and then only one at a time. Though you can runs 
these platforms headless as well without problems.



That is not true (and a very common misconception).

A colleague of min already did run Windows services done with Delphi on 
Win IoT.


The complete Windows API seems to work if you don't use GUI functions 
(which would be called widgets in Linux). Timers and TCP/IP do work .


-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Graeme Geldenhuys 
On 2016-04-01 10:22, Santiago A. wrote:
> but 90% of times you shouldn't have to mess with
> configuration files, each one with its one syntax (that's what many unix
> products miss and  windows shines)

This only seems to be an issue for Windows centric people - for
everybody else it has never been a problem. I have been maintaining
Unix-like servers for years. All types of services (web, mail, news, NFS
etc). I've never had a problem configuring them via config files, and
the documentation and examples were always excellent.

As for support (when you are stuck). Post your config file somewhere on
the web, others can take a look and immediately instruct you on what you
did wrong. Under Windows, you have NO such option, because the
configuration is hidden is some binary blob or deep in the registry mess.

Give me good old text configs any time of the time. Easy to edit, easy
to backup.

Regards,
  - Graeme -

-- 
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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Sven Barth 
Am 01.04.2016 09:52 schrieb "Michael Van Canneyt" :
>
>
>
> On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Michael Schnell wrote:
>
>> On 04/01/2016 08:58 AM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Some years ago they announced that the sever could run "without GUI".
>>
>>
>> In fact "Windows IOT" is windows 10 without the GUI API (i.e. you can
run Aervicesm but you can't run applications).
>>
>> So this is viable/sensible/possible in the end.
>
>
> "Windows IOT" is a misnomer. Windows = GUI. The name kind of gives it
away.

However classical WinAPI can't access it. You can access it only with
Windows Store Apps and then only one at a time. Though you can runs these
platforms headless as well without problems.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Santiago A. 
El 01/04/2016 a las 10:37, Michael Van Canneyt escribió:
> I cannot understand that Canonical agreed to cooperate on this.
> It's called shooting in your own foot...
>

Me neither.

>> And don't deceive yourself. Scripts are the most powerful solution, but
>> a GUI need less knowledge and expertise, so they may be cheaper in the
>> long run.
>
> You therewith assert that microsoft advocates ignorance and stupidity
> ? :-)

It is a wise strategy. There are more middle users than gurus.

> All very nice till you hit a really hard problem and then you need to
> call an expert anyway, who charges you astronomical amounts of money
> for deleting a
> registry key or so. It's a nice deceit...
Yes, when you hit a hard problem, windows is a blackbox.  There is the
old linux saying "Windows makes easy what is easy and impossible what is
difficult". You needn't to convince me.

Nevertheless, Unix world should have more configurations tools with a
good UI (graphic or not).
If you need to do hard things, you must be able to tweak with well
documented configuration files (that's what windows doesn't have and
unix products shines), but 90% of times you shouldn't have to mess with
configuration files, each one with its one syntax (that's what many unix
products miss and  windows shines)

The Cherokee web server (now a dead project) offered a configuration
utility with a web UI as part of the product. That is the right path.

Well, this is going too off topic.

-- 
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Santiago A.
s...@ciberpiula.net


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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Michael Van Canneyt 



On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Santiago A. wrote:



I agree that is not easy. Windows has created his own set of services,
uses a strange jargon and nomenclature for services and stuff that has
been there for years in unix world. But that's its strategy: Make unix
admins a little more comfortable with windows concepts, jargon and
products. Maybe next time a unix admin faces a windows product, he won't
push for only-unix solution so hard.


Yes, they are a wolf in sheepskin...

I cannot understand that Canonical agreed to cooperate on this.
It's called shooting in your own foot...


And don't deceive yourself. Scripts are the most powerful solution, but
a GUI need less knowledge and expertise, so they may be cheaper in the
long run.


You therewith assert that microsoft advocates ignorance and stupidity ? :-)

All very nice till you hit a really hard problem and then you need to call 
an expert anyway, who charges you astronomical amounts of money for deleting a

registry key or so. It's a nice deceit...

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Graeme Geldenhuys 
On 2016-04-01 07:58, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
> Most (if not all) of their admin tools are GUI based. 
> That makes scripting them impossibile.

Plus the fact that you can transfer existing configurations to newly
built servers to replace the old ones. On Unix/Linux, it is simply a
matter of copying config files from /etc/ and /usr/local/etc/. Can't get
easier (and more convenient) than that.


> Some years ago they announced that the sever could run "without GUI".
> I think it was windows server 2012. Till you need to run an installer

Haha... very good point. :)


Regards,
  - Graeme -

-- 
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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Michael Van Canneyt 



On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Michael Schnell wrote:


On 04/01/2016 09:53 AM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

"Windows IOT" is a misnomer. Windows = GUI. The name kind of gives it away.
Of course language-wise you are right, but politically of course M$ needs to 
stick to the "Windows" name, even if stripping off any sense of that.


This kind of reasoning only can come from marketeers.
It's a bit like BMW with their huge version of the 'mini'. 
Someone should explain to them what 'mini' actually means...


Luckily, Douglas Adams had good ideas about what to do with such people :-)

Anyway, we are diverting.

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Martin Schreiber 
On Thursday 31 March 2016 20:30:59 Anthony Walter wrote:
> I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us:
>
> https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-for-all/

A date effect maybe? ;-)

Martin

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Michael Van Canneyt 



On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, Michael Schnell wrote:


On 04/01/2016 08:58 AM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:


Some years ago they announced that the sever could run "without GUI".


In fact "Windows IOT" is windows 10 without the GUI API (i.e. you can run 
Aervicesm but you can't run applications).


So this is viable/sensible/possible in the end.


"Windows IOT" is a misnomer. Windows = GUI. 
The name kind of gives it away.


Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Michael Schnell 

On 04/01/2016 08:58 AM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:


Some years ago they announced that the sever could run "without GUI".


In fact "Windows IOT" is windows 10 without the GUI API (i.e. you can 
run Aervicesm but you can't run applications).


So this is viable/sensible/possible in the end.

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Michael Schnell 

On 03/31/2016 08:30 PM, Anthony Walter wrote:

I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us:
Am I wrong feeling that the (IMHO rather viable) CIL (aka".Net") 
initiative, once launched by Microsoft is declining due to the 
ubiquitous rise of Java  ?


In fact Microsoft took Silverlight to grave,  recently I did not hear 
much about Mono and Moonlight,


Open sourcing Xamarin to me seems just a sign that nobody can earn any 
money with same, so it's just another indication of the thesis.


The fpc community never seemed to have much interest for CIL 
(Embarcadero started two questionable attempts with "Delphi for .Net" 
and the acquisition of Oxygen).


fpc instead seems to be rather far into creating Java/Dalvik Byte/Word code

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-04-01 Thread Michael Van Canneyt 



On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, vfclists . wrote:


On 31 March 2016 at 21:56, Denis Kozlov  wrote:


On 31/03/2016 21:31, vfclists . wrote:


They are going all out against Apple and Redhat.



You meant Apple and Google maybe? They target Windows, Mac/iOS and Android.

A wide selection of supported platforms is where FPC and Lazarus defiantly
have an edge.

Denis


They are going after the whole Linux.Unix system. They want Linux admins and
developers to realize that they can have good GUI development and
server-management
tools available on Windows and still have all the command line goodies
they've learned to love on Linux.


I seriously doubt this will have any effect.

Most (if not all) of their admin tools are GUI based. 
That makes scripting them impossibile. Which is the point of scripting.


Some years ago they announced that the sever could run "without GUI".
I think it was windows server 2012. Till you need to run an installer to
install some software... And all windows software installers are GUI based.

We threw out windows servers, and the admin crew is all the more happy for
it, because now they can script literally everything.

More importantly, windows is still a black box. Something happens, you get
completely stuck. I still need to encounter the problem I cannot solve with
the use of strace on linux.

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-03-31 Thread Sven Barth 
On 31.03.2016 23:14, vfclists . wrote:
> 
> They have recently announced Bash for Windows and they are aiming to get
> a lot of Unix tools running easily on Windows.
> In fact those tools have been there for a while but they were not
> seriously promoted.
> 

They announced the ability to run ELF binaries on Windows. Basically an
advanced/improved version of their POSIX/Unix subsystem that they had
from NT times till Windows 8 (exclusive if I remember correctly). Unlike
then the binaries now run as is (back then one needed to compile them
from source with an adjusted gcc, but it worked rather nicely :) )

Regards,
Sven


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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-03-31 Thread vfclists . 
On 31 March 2016 at 21:56, Denis Kozlov  wrote:

> On 31/03/2016 21:31, vfclists . wrote:
>
>> They are going all out against Apple and Redhat.
>>
>
> You meant Apple and Google maybe? They target Windows, Mac/iOS and Android.
>
> A wide selection of supported platforms is where FPC and Lazarus defiantly
> have an edge.
>
> Denis
>
>
>
Microsoft earns some patent fees from every single Android device sold.
They've lost the mobile
war for the next few years to come until Xamarin makes app development easy
for Windows for
developers to produce more apps for the mobile platform.

They are definitely going after Redhat, and Oracle in the short-term. They
are not going the mistake
they made with Apple.

SQL Server will be available for Linux quite soon.

They have recently announced Bash for Windows and they are aiming to get a
lot of Unix tools running easily on Windows.
In fact those tools have been there for a while but they were not seriously
promoted.

They are going after the whole Linux.Unix system. They want Linux admins and
developers to realize that they can have good GUI development and
server-management
tools available on Windows and still have all the command line goodies
they've learned to
love on Linux.

Given the lack of integrated toolsets available for Linux, they will
probably make it.

-- 
Frank Church

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-03-31 Thread Denis Kozlov 

On 31/03/2016 21:31, vfclists . wrote:

They are going all out against Apple and Redhat.


You meant Apple and Google maybe? They target Windows, Mac/iOS and Android.

A wide selection of supported platforms is where FPC and Lazarus 
defiantly have an edge.


Denis

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-03-31 Thread Michael Van Canneyt 



On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, Maciej Izak wrote:


2016-03-31 20:30 GMT+02:00 Anthony Walter :


I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us:

https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-for-all/



kind of inspiration for better Lazarus and FreePascal


I fail to see how ?

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-03-31 Thread Dmitry Boyarintsev 
On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 4:31 PM, vfclists .  wrote:

>
> Microsoft are not interested in FreePascal and Lazarus.
>
> They are going all out against Apple and Redhat.
>

Xamarin is using native controls, just like LCL does.
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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-03-31 Thread vfclists . 
On 31 March 2016 at 20:21, Maciej Izak  wrote:

>
> 2016-03-31 20:30 GMT+02:00 Anthony Walter :
>
>> I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us:
>>
>> https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-for-all/
>>
>
> kind of inspiration for better Lazarus and FreePascal?
>
>
Microsoft are not interested in FreePascal and Lazarus.

They are going all out against Apple and Redhat.


-- 
Frank Church

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Re: [Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-03-31 Thread Maciej Izak 
2016-03-31 20:30 GMT+02:00 Anthony Walter :

> I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us:
>
> https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-for-all/
>

kind of inspiration for better Lazarus and FreePascal?

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[Lazarus] Xamarin becomes free and open-source

2016-03-31 Thread Anthony Walter 
I thought this was newsworthy and of interest to us:

https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-for-all/
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