Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Op dinsdag 29-01-2008 om 11:11 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef willem: Joost van der Sluis wrote: Personally I would rank debugger way higher on my wishlist than packages. That won't work. DDD is a frontend to GDB. And guess where the problem is? The problem is GDB. Can you tell me more about the problems with GDB ? Well, what are you problems with the Lazarus debugger? Those are the problems with GDB. (Almost) Biggest problem is dat is doesn't support pascal-class-style properties, that the DWARF support is limited. That it's not very stable/usefull in Windows/Cygwin envirionments. That it's not available at all at win64. (since there's no gcc for win64) GDB's is most suitable to debug GNU/gcc applications on Unix systems. Pascal and windows are supported, but very limited since most GDB developers don't use those platforms and are not really interested in them. Joost _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Joost van der Sluis schreef: Can you tell me more about the problems with GDB ? That it's not available at all at win64. (since there's no gcc for win64) That is not the case anymore. Try ftp://ftp.hu.freepascal.org/pub/lazarus/Lazarus-0.9.25-fpc-2.2.1-20080130-win64.exe Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Vincent, With this you got integrated debugger working at Win64 Lazarus? -- Att, Wanderlan Santos dos Anjos On Jan 30, 2008 12:26 PM, Vincent Snijders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joost van der Sluis schreef: Can you tell me more about the problems with GDB ? That it's not available at all at win64. (since there's no gcc for win64) That is not the case anymore. Try ftp://ftp.hu.freepascal.org/pub/lazarus/Lazarus-0.9.25-fpc-2.2.1-20080130-win64.exe Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Joost van der Sluis wrote: Personally I would rank debugger way higher on my wishlist than packages. That won't work. DDD is a frontend to GDB. And guess where the problem is? The problem is GDB. Can you tell me more about the problems with GDB ? Joost. regards Wim _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Op dinsdag 29-01-2008 om 03:03 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef willem: Marco van de Voort wrote: Personally I would rank debugger way higher on my wishlist than packages. Yes I agree with you that a debugger is important. I am thinking of porting DDD to Lazarus. That won't work. DDD is a frontend to GDB. And guess where the problem is? The problem is GDB. Lazarus also has a frontend to gdb, and I think the lazarus-frontend is better then DDD. So Porting DDD seems quite useless. Joost. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Warren Postma wrote: My reason for complaining about Lazarus, and calling it unusable, is that it suffers from worse usability defects (for what I want to use it for) than even the worst-ever versions of Delphi such as Delphi 2005. If Lazarus could be as useful to me as Delphi 7, I would change my opinion from nice little toy, to amazing open source platform pretty quickly. It's not that I hate Lazarus. I am deeply disappointed with it. All the whiners who stopped buying from CodeGear because of low quality, seem to have no problem with the low quality and the missing basic features of Lazarus that Delphi has had since Delphi 3.0. You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. If Lazarus develops ANY package support whatsoever, I'll contribute and help make it better. But until the FPC base compiler supports some kind of runtime package support, I see no point working on the top level GUI (lazarus). Maybe I should try to help the FPC team write package support. I don't know if I can, I have zero compiler-writing experience. Well I have compiler experience and I know the Ubuntu and Debian Package support very well. But I do not understand your issue about runtime package support. Can you explain this issue further to me ? regards Wim Cross platform matters to me. So I'm not like most of the lazarus haters. I'm not a hater at all. But I am a critic. Warren _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Michael Van Canneyt wrote: On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Warren Postma wrote: My reason for complaining about Lazarus, and calling it unusable, is that it suffers from worse usability defects (for what I want to use it for) than even the worst-ever versions of Delphi such as Delphi 2005. If Lazarus could be as useful to me as Delphi 7, I would change my opinion from nice little toy, to amazing open source platform pretty quickly. It's not that I hate Lazarus. I am deeply disappointed with it. All the whiners who stopped buying from CodeGear because of low quality, seem to have no problem with the low quality and the missing basic features of Lazarus that Delphi has had since Delphi 3.0. Well, looking at the price you pay, it's quality/price ratio is still infinitely better than Delphi's :) You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. I install packages in lazarus very often. It works differently than in Delphi, I'll grant you that. But definitely not worse than Delphi - and I am using Delphi 7. The delphi package system is the cause for the fact that I can run a program in the debugger exactly once, and then I must restart delphi, because on the next run it simply hangs. A side-effect of packages. As for the compiler support for packages: I'm all for it. But until someone steps up and actually starts working on it, instead of everybody skulking around on the mailing lists and waiting for someone else to do it, not much will get implemented. The compiler team currently has other things which it considers more urgent: a build packaging system for instance, which should make installing packages more easy, even if it requires a recompile. We are well on our way to complete it. The message to people waiting for a run-time package system is: roll up your sleeves, and start working on it. Any help, however small, is welcome. Even a basic list of requirements is already help. That is how open source works: collaboration by everybody. Michael. Well I am very satisfied with the Ubuntu , Debian package system. I am also using Eclipse, their package system gives me headaches. There are always ways to improve a package system. Regards Wim _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Marco van de Voort wrote: On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 12:48:56PM -0500, Warren Postma wrote: My reason for complaining about Lazarus, and calling it unusable, is that it suffers from worse usability defects (for what I want to use it for) than even the worst-ever versions of Delphi such as Delphi 2005. One assumes here that a usability defects makes unusable per se. Which is false. Usability defects can be painful, but if it can be worked around, it can be still worth, depending on the gains. And there we get into the usual pattern. Not everybodies expectations and requirements are the same. If Lazarus could be as useful to me as Delphi 7, I would change my opinion from nice little toy, to amazing open source platform pretty quickly. Calling something a toy that people earn a living with, and other people invested over a decade in, doesn't gain credit points. Nor will they listen to your arguments. It's not that I hate Lazarus. I am deeply disappointed with it. All the whiners who stopped buying from CodeGear because of low quality, seem to have no problem with the low quality and the missing basic features of Lazarus that Delphi has had since Delphi 3.0. Maybe they still miss features in D2007 that FPC had in 1.0, like Linux support. Or multi-arch support like in 2.0 :-) Or generics, like in 2.2. You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. To be honest, I use D7 daily. Mostly because in my current job I have no need for crosscompat atm. But in all my years of being a Delphi programmer, I never used packages, and in some ways the Lazarus package system is better (e.g. not having to manually add directories after installing a package, why couldn't that be fixed in 11 versions of Delphi?) If Lazarus develops ANY package support whatsoever, I'll contribute and help make it better. I only partially agree with Florian. I don't think a package system is useless, but it sure is overrated, and the costs are tremendous. It's that big hump that has stopped progres thusfar. Your messages is typical in this regard, and by the way roughly something that has been echoing in b.p.d.non-tech for about an year now as the lastest last-straw whip to bash Lazarus. Except the vague (and IMHO bogus) notation that packages is some silver bullet that will make Lazarus right, it doesn't provide any clue about usage patterns of packages, notion of implementation details, the question if versioning in an open source projects won't be awfully hard (364 1/4 .FPL packages every year. Minus one day when the server gets exchanged) etc etc. And of course, nobody wants to help. It must be there first, and then the same people will hold on to the next straw that FPC misses, something that has been going on since Delphi times (including one person that persisted that FPC is not there yet for ten years because it wouldn't compile his 16-bit asm) Personally I would rank debugger way higher on my wishlist than packages. Yes I agree with you that a debugger is important. I am thinking of porting DDD to Lazarus. But until the FPC base compiler supports some kind of runtime package support, I see no point working on the top level GUI (lazarus). Maybe I should try to help the FPC team write package support. I don't know if I can, I have zero compiler-writing experience. It's more linker knowlede btw. And we wouldn't mind. On a similar note, recently a new resources system was committed, mostly created by an interested external (thanks again Giulio) But may I suggest you should actually have a look at Lazarus internals beforehand, to really make sure you are not wasting time on a silver bullet that turns out to be rust? Another thing to think over is that if packages are less useful on non windows platforms, how useful is the package then? It will be some time that FPC beats Delphi in pure Delphi/win32 applications. Cross platform matters to me. So I'm not like most of the lazarus haters. I'm not a hater at all. But I am a critic. Uninformed critics are often awfully close to haters. Except the former word it better. That's not necessarily a direct crack at you, but be careful that you don't echo the tenure of that NG too much. It is rather simplistic. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
