Re: [LEAPSECS] is leap smear legal in Germany?
Tom Van Baak wrote in : |Steve, et al. | |Some good history resources: ... |"Special Issue; The System of Units" |https://www.ptb.de/cms/fileadmin/internet/publikationen/ptb_mitteilungen\ |/mitt2012/Heft1/PTB-Mitteilungen_2012_Heft_1_en.pdf There is a v2 of that available, also in english: https://www.ptb.de/cms/fileadmin/internet/presse_aktuelles/broschueren/intern_einheitensystem/Das_neue_Internationale_Einheitensystem_V2.pdf https://www.ptb.de/cms/fileadmin/internet/presse_aktuelles/broschueren/intern_einheitensystem/Info_Sheet_The_New_SI_V2.pdf --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) ___ LEAPSECS mailing list LEAPSECS@leapsecond.com https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs
Re: [LEAPSECS] is leap smear legal in Germany?
Steve, et al. Some good history resources: "Special Topic 50 years of time dissemination with DCF77" https://www.ptb.de/cms/fileadmin/internet/fachabteilungen/abteilung_4/4.4_zeit_und_frequenz/pdf/2011_PTBMitt_50a_DCF77_engl.pdf "Time - the SI Base Unit Second" https://www.ptb.de/cms/fileadmin/internet/fachabteilungen/abteilung_4/4.4_zeit_und_frequenz/pdf/2012_Bauch_PTBM_125a_en.pdf The above is of special interest to me (being both a pendulum and atomic clock experimenter) is the mention of A. Scheibe and U. Adelsberger who used multiple quartz clocks to demonstrate that it was the earth, not pendulum clocks, not quartz clocks that was unstable. "A. Scheibe und U. Adelsberger; Physiker und Uhrenbauer aus Deutschland" http://chronos-ev.de/vortrag/quarz5.pdf "Some aspects of precision time measurements, controlled by means of piezo-electric-vibrators, as deployed in Germany prior to 1950" http://www.cdvandt.org/PTR%20quartz-clock.pdf The above mentions "The first statistical proof of the deviations of the daily earth rotation". "Special Issue; The System of Units" https://www.ptb.de/cms/fileadmin/internet/publikationen/ptb_mitteilungen/mitt2012/Heft1/PTB-Mitteilungen_2012_Heft_1_en.pdf "50 Years of the Atomic Definition of the Second" https://oar.ptb.de/files/download/59ef10144c918497222d9bb7 "Fifty years of atomic time-keeping: 1955 to 2005" DOI: 10.1088/0026-1394/42/3/E01 "The 50th Anniversary of the Atomic Second" DOI: 10.1109/TUFFC.2018.2823591 More (possible dead) links here: https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-July/019010.html /tvb - Original Message - From: "Steve Allen" To: "Leap Second Discussion List" Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2019 8:27 AM Subject: [LEAPSECS] is leap smear legal in Germany? > The story about the German time broadcasts of DCF77 is in Bulletin > Horaire. The story about the German decision that the old rubber > second UTC form of coordination was not legal after CGPM adopted > the cesium second is in the proceedings of the CCDS, and it is > also indicated in several popular articles written by H.M. Smith. > ... ___ LEAPSECS mailing list LEAPSECS@leapsecond.com https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs
Re: [LEAPSECS] is leap smear legal in Germany?
On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 11:14 AM Kevin Birth wrote: > Since law significantly lags behind technology, the leap smear is probably > not illegal in any private network in any country. After all, UTC is still > not the "legal" time in many countries. > > NTP was developed after rubber seconds. If NTP had developed before > rubber seconds, and if the increments lengthening the rubber seconds were > small enough, there might never have been a leap second policy. > Maybe, maybe not. For some things, rubber leap seconds are fine. For others, the error in the frequency exceeds the tolerances for control systems that care about errors as small as 1E-6 that will be wrong on leap second spear day. Having seconds of different lengths is a problem for this class of people, and will be a problem whether or not there's a leap second step. NTP was developed after leap seconds started, it is true. But it took 20-odd years after it was developed for people to start smearing leap seconds. The prime mover for leap seconds was never computer time, which in 1970 sucked by today's standards: to be within minutes of the "correct" time was good enough so nuanced differences in what was "correct" were never given much of a though (UTC, UT1, UT2, TAI, meh, the delta between these is 1000x smaller than what my system time can track, so who cares). It was all about navigation and making sure that there was uniformity. Warner Cheers, > > Kevin > > > > From: LEAPSECS on behalf of Martin > Burnicki > Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 10:48 AM > To: leapsecs@leapsecond.com > Subject: Re: [LEAPSECS] is leap smear legal in Germany? > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: please report suspicious content to the ITS Help Desk. > > > Steve, > > Steve Allen wrote: > > The story about the German time broadcasts of DCF77 is in Bulletin > > Horaire. > [...] > > But now I am trolling and asking: > > Given that rubber seconds are illegal in Germany, is it legal to > > use Google/Amazon NTP servers that provide smeared leap seconds? > > Thanks for the historic facts on DCF77, that's very interesting. > > I don't know if it's legal or not, but I know some of our customers here > in Germany have explicitly configured their Meinberg LANTIME NTP servers > to do leap second smearing. > > It's not because they like smearing seconds so much, it's just because > it's a reliable way to avoid problems caused by OS kernels which simply > step the system time back to insert a leap second. > > Martin > -- > Martin Burnicki > > Senior Software Engineer > > MEINBERG Funkuhren GmbH & Co. KG > Email: martin.burni...@meinberg.de > Phone: +49 5281 9309-414 > Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martinburnicki/ > > Lange Wand 9, 31812 Bad Pyrmont, Germany > Amtsgericht Hannover 17HRA 100322 > Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Günter Meinberg, Werner Meinberg, > Andre Hartmann, Heiko Gerstung > Websites: https://www.meinberg.de https://www.meinbergglobal.com > Training: https://www.meinberg.academy > > ___ > LEAPSECS mailing list > LEAPSECS@leapsecond.com > https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs > ___ > LEAPSECS mailing list > LEAPSECS@leapsecond.com > https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs > ___ LEAPSECS mailing list LEAPSECS@leapsecond.com https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs
Re: [LEAPSECS] is leap smear legal in Germany?
Since law significantly lags behind technology, the leap smear is probably not illegal in any private network in any country. After all, UTC is still not the "legal" time in many countries. NTP was developed after rubber seconds. If NTP had developed before rubber seconds, and if the increments lengthening the rubber seconds were small enough, there might never have been a leap second policy. Cheers, Kevin From: LEAPSECS on behalf of Martin Burnicki Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 10:48 AM To: leapsecs@leapsecond.com Subject: Re: [LEAPSECS] is leap smear legal in Germany? EXTERNAL EMAIL: please report suspicious content to the ITS Help Desk. Steve, Steve Allen wrote: > The story about the German time broadcasts of DCF77 is in Bulletin > Horaire. [...] > But now I am trolling and asking: > Given that rubber seconds are illegal in Germany, is it legal to > use Google/Amazon NTP servers that provide smeared leap seconds? Thanks for the historic facts on DCF77, that's very interesting. I don't know if it's legal or not, but I know some of our customers here in Germany have explicitly configured their Meinberg LANTIME NTP servers to do leap second smearing. It's not because they like smearing seconds so much, it's just because it's a reliable way to avoid problems caused by OS kernels which simply step the system time back to insert a leap second. Martin -- Martin Burnicki Senior Software Engineer MEINBERG Funkuhren GmbH & Co. KG Email: martin.burni...@meinberg.de Phone: +49 5281 9309-414 Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martinburnicki/ Lange Wand 9, 31812 Bad Pyrmont, Germany Amtsgericht Hannover 17HRA 100322 Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Günter Meinberg, Werner Meinberg, Andre Hartmann, Heiko Gerstung Websites: https://www.meinberg.de https://www.meinbergglobal.com Training: https://www.meinberg.academy ___ LEAPSECS mailing list LEAPSECS@leapsecond.com https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs ___ LEAPSECS mailing list LEAPSECS@leapsecond.com https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs
Re: [LEAPSECS] is leap smear legal in Germany?
Steve, Steve Allen wrote: > The story about the German time broadcasts of DCF77 is in Bulletin > Horaire. [...] > But now I am trolling and asking: > Given that rubber seconds are illegal in Germany, is it legal to > use Google/Amazon NTP servers that provide smeared leap seconds? Thanks for the historic facts on DCF77, that's very interesting. I don't know if it's legal or not, but I know some of our customers here in Germany have explicitly configured their Meinberg LANTIME NTP servers to do leap second smearing. It's not because they like smearing seconds so much, it's just because it's a reliable way to avoid problems caused by OS kernels which simply step the system time back to insert a leap second. Martin -- Martin Burnicki Senior Software Engineer MEINBERG Funkuhren GmbH & Co. KG Email: martin.burni...@meinberg.de Phone: +49 5281 9309-414 Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martinburnicki/ Lange Wand 9, 31812 Bad Pyrmont, Germany Amtsgericht Hannover 17HRA 100322 Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Günter Meinberg, Werner Meinberg, Andre Hartmann, Heiko Gerstung Websites: https://www.meinberg.de https://www.meinbergglobal.com Training: https://www.meinberg.academy ___ LEAPSECS mailing list LEAPSECS@leapsecond.com https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs
Re: [LEAPSECS] is leap smear legal in Germany?
Steve Allen wrote in <20190202162711.ga11...@ucolick.org>: .. |But now I am trolling and asking: |Given that rubber seconds are illegal in Germany, is it legal to |use Google/Amazon NTP servers that provide smeared leap seconds? I do not know, but i could give the typical political answer. Or maybe you know someone from the government, which is "doing things", they need to be done, no? And then, last week or so the interior minister of Austria claimed that "law has to follow politics". Of course it was just one more of those border moving provocations that happen all over the western world, and i am not Austrian so how can i dare to mention it, but nonetheless. Thus, whether it is legal or not, it will be waved through and adopted for business needs or "common sense" unless you get some political rise against it, which likely (in my opinion) will not happen. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) ___ LEAPSECS mailing list LEAPSECS@leapsecond.com https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs
[LEAPSECS] is leap smear legal in Germany?
The story about the German time broadcasts of DCF77 is in Bulletin Horaire. The story about the German decision that the old rubber second UTC form of coordination was not legal after CGPM adopted the cesium second is in the proceedings of the CCDS, and it is also indicated in several popular articles written by H.M. Smith. In his memoire about history of Greenwich D.H. Sadler told the story of a CCDS preparatory meeting where Andre Danjon was too sick, and the interim president was one of the cesium gang. Sadler wrote that the interim took a straw vote which turned out against cesium, then announced when the meeting would end so that folks could make travel arrangements home, then extended the meeting and took the final vote after some folks had left. The remaining votes came out in favor of cesium, Sadler objected to the CIPM, and the CIPM invalidated the vote and meeting and excluded both Sadler and the interim president from the next meeting. Sadler makes it clear that there were trolls among the time community in the 1960s. The Bulletin Horaire listings of two different parties in charge of DCF77 transmissions hint that there were similar tensions of purpose within Germany. The ITU-R library probably has reports from the CCIR working party meetings during 1968 and 1969 which would give more clues about the official stances of various nations. It would be interesting to dig further into the power struggle in Germany between the Hydrographic signals and the Metrological signals, and to see who and how it was argued that rubber seconds were no longer legal in Germany. This might reveal hints about whether the crisis in the CCIR that led to urgent creation of leap seconds was triggered by Gerhard Becker or someone else at PTB acting alone, or whether the cesium gang had talked through and decided that Germany was the expedient place to trigger the crisis. But now I am trolling and asking: Given that rubber seconds are illegal in Germany, is it legal to use Google/Amazon NTP servers that provide smeared leap seconds? -- Steve Allen WGS-84 (GPS) UCO/Lick Observatory--ISB 260 Natural Sciences II, Room 165 Lat +36.99855 1156 High Street Voice: +1 831 459 3046 Lng -122.06015 Santa Cruz, CA 95064 https://www.ucolick.org/~sla/ Hgt +250 m ___ LEAPSECS mailing list LEAPSECS@leapsecond.com https://pairlist6.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/leapsecs
