Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
Hi, On 01/05/11 09:01, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: Is there a tool available to remove all my contributed data from osm, safeguard it, and allows me to resubmit once I can agree with the CT and new license ? No. You would probably negatively affect a lot of other contributions by removing your data. This might be considered vandalism. If you were to remove your data now, others would probably undo the removal. Also, re-submitting your data later would create new objects, thus destroying the history; this is something we would not want to become the normal procedure. Once the CT becomes binding, this will have to be carried out by OSMF anyway for a substantial number of users, I don't expect the number to be substantial. so it would be best to allow for users to do this themselves. Certainly not; even if OSMF has to remove data from users who have not relicensed their data, it is better to do so in one co-ordinated process rather than lots of people trying to do it themselves. Of course, there has to be discussed about the rules that will govern the removals, as 1^st of April is quickly coming, we should start the discussion. Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to the CT. In addition we need to determine a procedure so as users cannot remove data from other contributors, so some authentication is required. No. Everyone in OSM can remove everything without authentication. Anyone thinking about it ? Can we start a discussion ? Why do you worry? Just leave this to OSMF. If they don't do their job properly you can still sue them for violating your copyright. In addition to all the other problems you would be causing, you would also hurt any potential CC-BY-SA forks (which are likely to use the last published CC-BY-SA planet as a starting point, and that planet would not contain your data if you remove it prematurely). Bye Frederik ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
Frederik Ramm frede...@... writes: Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to the CT. Can you clarify this? I understood that the CTs were per-person, not per-account, so if you are unable to agree to them for existing contributions you would not be able to open a new account either (since to do so you'd have to agree to the CTs for your earlier contributions too). -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
On 5 January 2011 12:09, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote: Frederik Ramm frede...@... writes: Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to the CT. Can you clarify this? I understood that the CTs were per-person, not per-account, so if you are unable to agree to them for existing contributions you would not be able to open a new account either (since to do so you'd have to agree to the CTs for your earlier contributions too). Repeated again... per account. The 1.0 version of the CT terms are not clear, but the intent is per account. It has been fixed in the current draft revision of the CTs which should hopefully go live in the next few weeks. Regards Grant Member of the LWG ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
On 5 January 2011 22:15, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote: Repeated again... per account. The 1.0 version of the CT terms are not clear, but the intent is per account. And here I was thinking that contracts are about what's in them... No matter how much you'd wish and hope they'd have been more clear to begin with, it won't change the wording until you actually update what people can agree to. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 12:09:41 + (UTC), Ed Avis wrote: Frederik Ramm frede...@... writes: Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to the CT. Can you clarify this? I understood that the CTs were per-person, not per-account, so if you are unable to agree to them for existing contributions you would not be able to open a new account either (since to do so you'd have to agree to the CTs for your earlier contributions too). CTs will allways be per account. There is nothing linking seperate accounts together or even to an actual person. There is only an e-mail address. Any one person can also create multiple accounts and choose to accept or not accept the CT for his currently exisiting account as he wishes. Regards, Maarten ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
Grant Slater openstreet...@... writes: I understood that the CTs were per-person, not per-account, so if you are unable to agree to them for existing contributions you would not be able to open a new account either (since to do so you'd have to agree to the CTs for your earlier contributions too). Repeated again... per account. The 1.0 version of the CT terms are not clear, but the intent is per account. It has been fixed in the current draft revision of the CTs which should hopefully go live in the next few weeks. Thanks, that's useful to know. I see that 'in this user account' has been added in the draft https://docs.google.com/View?id=dd9g3qjp_933xs7nvfb. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
On 5 January 2011 22:21, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: CTs will allways be per account. There is nothing linking seperate accounts together or even to an actual person. There is only an e-mail address. Any one person can also create multiple accounts and choose to accept or not accept the CT for his currently exisiting account as he wishes. You seem to be confusing enforcement of contracts with the contract itself. Just because something might be difficult to enforce doesn't make it less enforcible, and as usual, it mostly effects those that tend to err to the side of caution/honesty. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
Frederic said as a reply: No. You would probably negatively affect a lot of other contributions by removing your data. This might be considered vandalism. If you were to remove your data now, others would probably undo the removal. These points are not relevant. Once OSM continues under new license and CT (as currently presented) I demand to have my owned data withdrawn. I just want OSMF to create a procedure on how to do this without creating the damage you refer to. some suggestion: One possibility would to have a block bit on my data, excluding it from being processed when creating tiles, or being exported. Other OSM-ers may be allowed to edit until I finally decide to have it completely removed, or undo the block bit. That would not harm history. I don't expect the number to be substantial. Your Opinion ! Certainly not; even if OSMF has to remove data from users who have not relicensed their data, it is better to do so in one co-ordinated process rather than lots of people trying to do it themselves. That is what I am asking for: a well thought out process, preventing me from using JOSM. Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to the CT. No edit with my account leads to that I demand my previous data to be removed. No. Everyone in OSM can remove everything without authentication. This authentication was to prevent me from deleting *your* data (in full) thus to guarantee your rights. Why do you worry? Just leave this to OSMF. If they don't do their job properly you can still sue them for violating your copyright. OSMF seems to have other priorities then truly free data. Free data needs no license or CT. In addition to all the other problems you would be causing, you would also hurt any potential CC-BY-SA forks (which are likely to use the last published CC-BY-SA planet as a starting point, and that planet would not contain your data if you remove it prematurely). That is a valid argument. Gert Gremmen - Openstreetmap.nl (alias: cetest) Before printing, think about the environment. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Frederik Ramm Verzonden: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 11:20 AM Aan: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006 Hi, On 01/05/11 09:01, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: Is there a tool available to remove all my contributed data from osm, safeguard it, and allows me to resubmit once I can agree with the CT and new license ? No. You would probably negatively affect a lot of other contributions by removing your data. This might be considered vandalism. If you were to remove your data now, others would probably undo the removal. Also, re-submitting your data later would create new objects, thus destroying the history; this is something we would not want to become the normal procedure. Once the CT becomes binding, this will have to be carried out by OSMF anyway for a substantial number of users, I don't expect the number to be substantial. so it would be best to allow for users to do this themselves. Certainly not; even if OSMF has to remove data from users who have not relicensed their data, it is better to do so in one co-ordinated process rather than lots of people trying to do it themselves. Of course, there has to be discussed about the rules that will govern the removals, as 1^st of April is quickly coming, we should start the discussion. Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to the CT. In addition we need to determine a procedure so as users cannot remove data from other contributors, so some authentication is required. No. Everyone in OSM can remove everything without authentication. Anyone thinking about it ? Can we start a discussion ? Why do you worry? Just leave this to OSMF. If they don't do their job properly you can still sue them for violating your copyright. In addition to all the other problems you would be causing, you would also hurt any potential CC-BY-SA forks (which are likely to use the last published CC-BY-SA planet as a starting point, and that planet would not contain your data if you remove it prematurely). Bye Frederik ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
On 05/01/11 13:14, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: These points are not relevant. Once OSM continues under new license and CT (as currently presented) I demand to have my owned data withdrawn. Why? - Rob. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
Maarten Deen md...@... writes: CTs will allways be per account. There is nothing linking seperate accounts together or even to an actual person. There is only an e-mail address. Any one person can also create multiple accounts and choose to accept or not accept the CT for his currently exisiting account as he wishes. That brings to my mind that how we can ever say in a reliable way who is an active contributor as defined by the CTs An active contributor is defined as: a natural person (whether using a single or multiple accounts) -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
On 2011-01-05 14:14, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: These points are not relevant. Once OSM continues under new license and CT (as currently presented) I demand to have my owned data withdrawn. Just out of curiosity: What do you consider as your data? Bye, Andreas ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
Hi, On 01/05/2011 02:14 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to the CT. No edit with my account leads to that I demand my previous data to be removed. There is no legal basis for such a demand. No. Everyone in OSM can remove everything without authentication. This authentication was to prevent me from deleting *your* data (in full) thus to guarantee your rights. If you were to delete data that I have contributed, you would not violate any of my rights. Your act might be considered vandalism, and reverted, nonetheless. Bye Frederik ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
Gert Gremmen wrote: Free data needs no license or CT. I agree! I'm really glad you - like me and many others - are dedicating your data to the public domain. No licence, no CT. Once OSM continues under new license and CT (as currently presented) I demand to have my owned data withdrawn. Oh, oops, too late. You just dedicated your data to the public domain. That means anyone can do anything with it, e.g. distribute it under ODbL+CT. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/OSM-legal-talk-How-to-remove-my-data-since-2006-tp5891290p5892034.html Sent from the Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
You have a point. ; But I wrote just my intention, not my decision. But I can still remove whatever data I consider mine. (well, until april 1st) Gert Gremmen - Openstreetmap.nl (alias: cetest) Before printing, think about the environment. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Richard Fairhurst Verzonden: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 3:06 PM Aan: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006 Gert Gremmen wrote: Free data needs no license or CT. I agree! I'm really glad you - like me and many others - are dedicating your data to the public domain. No licence, no CT. Once OSM continues under new license and CT (as currently presented) I demand to have my owned data withdrawn. Oh, oops, too late. You just dedicated your data to the public domain. That means anyone can do anything with it, e.g. distribute it under ODbL+CT. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/OSM-legal-talk-How-to-remove-my-data-since-2006-tp5891290p5892034.html Sent from the Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
