Re: [L-I] Congo
En relación a Re: [L-I] Congo, el 21 Jan 01, a las 20:52, Mine Aysen Doyran dijo: > > >Macdonald Stainsby wrote: > > > >I'm not a big fan of Heartfield, but on this count I tend to agree... > > > > >1) He says he's not paying the debt. > > > > >2) He's dead. > > > > >Any questions? > > > > >Macdonald > > > > himm? actually, I am planning to do a case study on the member > composition of LBO ... Shit, the whole thrust of my initial posting on Heartfield was that we should stick to the facts this messager has brought. I only find more and more people debating on JH. I must have done something wrong. Please, let us not debate Heartfield, let us debate the Congolese situation. Mark Jones believes the now gone Kabila was a SOB and a slave trader. So be it. He also believed Peron was a Fascist, until someone could tell him the history from within. If the DRC had some Nestor Gorojovsky on this list, who could disentangle the unbelievably bloody history of this martyr country, then I guess many of our present heroes would become rogues, and many rogues heroes. At any rate, what actually matters is the syllogism by Macdonald: did not pay, stopped living. Any connections? Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Congo
En relación a Re: [L-I] Congo, el 21 Jan 01, a las 13:10, Louis Proyect dijo: > > Despite their pleasant demeanor on various progressive Internet forums, > people like James Heartfield are Thatcherites who choose to use Marxish > verbiage as the need arises. Their big concern is "freedom"--freedom to say > whatever they like just like P.J. O' Rourke or any other libertarian. Or the > freedom for big corporations to make a profit without interference from Green > groups. To try to salvage their reputation because they oppose intervention in > the Congo makes about as much sense as supporting George W. Bush who is also > committed verbally to get out of the "humanitarian interventions" business. Did not try to save anyone's reputation. In fact, the only reputations I usually try to salvage are my own and those of my friends (L. Proyect being in that unworthy list, in fact). What I was trying to salvage, if anything, was the piece of information. I was trying to sever the link between the news and the postman.d Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Congo
>Macdonald Stainsby wrote: > >I'm not a big fan of Heartfield, but on this count I tend to agree... > > >1) He says he's not paying the debt. > > >2) He's dead. > > >Any questions? > > >Macdonald > himm? actually, I am planning to do a case study on the member composition of LBO talk show, which will include the following survey questions. Do you prefer revolutionary politics or McDonald fried chickens? Do you prefer to use condomes or pills for birth control? Do you prefer jazz or Madonna? Still, a discussion on Congo is a slight improvement for liberterian charecters like J.H however double fucked up his politics is ... co-moderator Mine > > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international -- Mine Aysen Doyran Ph.D Student Department of Political Science SUNY at Albany Nelson A. Rockefeller College 135 Western Ave.; Milne 102 Albany, NY 1 Shop online without a credit card http://www.rocketcash.com RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Congo
> Richard Gott, per > contra, is not only a real marxist and revolutionary, and a man who worked > successfully for the KGB while employed as a journo at the Grauniad, he is also a > man who put his life where his money is not once but at least twice. Of course, > this > validates nothing in his views about the Congo. > Gott: Did he not just write on H.Chavez? Any reviews on the book? I've thought about getting a hold of it- I am intrigued to find out more about this new Bolivarist. > As for Kabila, he was just another slave-selling SOB and we should not make a martyr > out of his fat carcass. IMHO. We should learn, IMHO, not to worry about "martyr or villain" dynamics, but rather figure out if he indeed *was* whacked by people choked at him for not paying off western debts,... that seems like a good plan on my part. Kabila seems part of a new tradition of the lefts very own "3rd way", seperate from that of Blair, Schroeder, etc. That way being where the struggle is an attempt to come up with small incremental gains like Chavez' that are sufficient to actually improve less the lives of people, but the conditions for struggle. Again, IMHO, it seems that the ability for an African leader to squeeze in such little gains in sovereignty are not to be allowed. Africa is still being crushed on the bottom, and treated far harsher than all the others comibined. Macdonald > Mark > ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Congo
I'm not a big fan of Heartfield, but on this count I tend to agree... 1) He says he's not paying the debt. 2) He's dead. Any questions? Macdonald ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
RE: [L-I] Congo
Yoshie Furuhashi: > >Most surreal...Richard > >Gott, who republished Guevara's Congo diaries as a blast against Kabila > >at the same time charges him with having 'alienated foreign investors by > >refusing to make payments on the gigantic foreign debt of $14bn incurred > >by his profligate predecessor' (Guardian January 19, 2001). More surreal still is Hreatfeild pretending to be pro-black Africa. This is the man who vocally supported Larry Summers' desire to dump shit there. Richard Gott, per contra, is not only a real marxist and revolutionary, and a man who worked successfully for the KGB while employed as a journo at the Grauniad, he is also a man who put his life where his money is not once but at least twice. Of course, this validates nothing in his views about the Congo. As for Kabila, he was just another slave-selling SOB and we should not make a martyr out of his fat carcass. IMHO. Mark ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
RE: [L-I] Congo
Louis Proyect: > > > Despite their pleasant demeanor on various progressive Internet forums, > people like James Heartfield are Thatcherites who choose to use Marxish > verbiage as the need arises. Heatfield is a runner. let's never forget it. Like those Russki sectaries who can't stand the heat of real theoretical debate, Heartfleid ran away when the warming debate go too hot for 'im. That's what I mainly remember about 'im: the sight of his fleeing cyber-ass. Mark ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Congo
>Well, I know that not everybody on L-I has a liking for Heartfield, and yours >truly has personally clashed with him on first acquaintance. But this posting >is at least as enlightening as Patrick's. > >Never runs smooth the path of true love, or something like that... > >Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky >[EMAIL PROTECTED] On the back of the November 2000 issue of the University of Kent Newsletter is a diary item by Frank Füredi--Heartfield's guru--about worries on the eve of his appearance on British radio. It reads in part: 'Tuesday: I am in a quiet state of agitation. The headlines are dominated by the outbreak of violence in the Middle East and no matter how hard I try, I cannot remember the name of the right-wing Israeli politician, whose visit to the Muslim shrine (whose name I can also not recall), sparked the whole thing off. 'Wednesday: More violence in Israel. But things are looking up -- the debate on sex education is in the news. That's more my kind of issue. Now if only there was another nice controversy about something with a sociological edge. 'Thursday: I am feeling depressed. The violence in the Middle East dominates the news. The media have dropped the sex education debate.' Despite their pleasant demeanor on various progressive Internet forums, people like James Heartfield are Thatcherites who choose to use Marxish verbiage as the need arises. Their big concern is "freedom"--freedom to say whatever they like just like P.J. O' Rourke or any other libertarian. Or the freedom for big corporations to make a profit without interference from Green groups. To try to salvage their reputation because they oppose intervention in the Congo makes about as much sense as supporting George W. Bush who is also committed verbally to get out of the "humanitarian interventions" business. Heartfield's LM was the British counterpart of such outfits as the Reason Foundation, the Heritage Foundation, the Hudson Institute or the Cato Institute. The only difference between the Furedi cult and these groups is that he had dispensed with the Cold War rhetoric. When you stop and think about it, that kind of rhetoric had outlived its usefulness anyhow. The LM'ers have formed a new outfit called the Institute of Ideas to replace the magazine. One of their first activities was to sponsor a debate on smoking with Forest, a pro-smoking group funded by the tobacco industry. One of the co-organizers was Dr Masden Pirie of the free market Adam Smith Institute, who also functioned as chairperson. According to the Guardian newspaper, Pirie said "We get on very well with these people." Some of the groups that operate under the aegis of the Institute of Ideas are: Families for Freedom, Freedom & Law, the Association of British Drivers and Audacity.org, a body opposed to restraints on "devolopment". If you go to the audacity.org website, you will find them describing themselves in the following terms: "We are a research company of industry professionals determined to question assumptions and limitations in British construction, with the aim of advancing development practice to make our own lives easier." In other words, this is the kind of outfit that gets scrutinized by Mike Wallace on Sixty Minutes every so often after a building collapses from inferior materials or construction techniques. Is this who Marxists want to network with? What kind of Marxist would want to network with these people? Another friend of the Institute for Ideas is the Reason Foundation which has been promoting the corporate takeover of schools in the US. Both its founder and senior editor accepted invitations to talk at ex-LM events - and paid their own way to come. If you go to their website, you will find proposals on privatizing foster care agencies and airports, screeds against global warming and other goodies. Their leading writer, the syndicated columnist Sandra Postrel, is author of the libertarian book "The Enemies of Freedom" and frequently talks at the Hudson Institute. A group affiliated with Institute for Ideas has set up shop in Frankfurt, Germany and works with former cold warriors and provides "research" that attacks environmentalists and social democratic governments. In Italy the director of something called the Progress Consultancy, who was a writer for LM, writes articles stating how hard it is for business to operate in a risk-obsessed society. Ex-LM'ers continue to burrow away on Great Britain's Channel Four and BBC, most recently arguing on the latter's Counterblast program that organic foods were more dangerous than conventional foods. This idea was first raised by the Hudson institute which is funded by Monsanto, among others. Appearing alongside our friends from LM was leading pro-GM scientist Professor Anthony Trewavas of Edinburgh university, who has several articles on Monsanto's website and will be at one of the Institute for Idea's debates. Ex-LM has forged strong links with internet companies, including cSscape,
Re: [L-I] Congo
En relación a [L-I] Congo, el 21 Jan 01, a las 11:52, Yoshie Furuhashi dijo: > >Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:27:16 + > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >From: James Heartfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >The assassination of Congo president Laurent Kabila was greeted with ... Well, I know that not everybody on L-I has a liking for Heartfield, and yours truly has personally clashed with him on first acquaintance. But this posting is at least as enlightening as Patrick's. Never runs smooth the path of true love, or something like that... Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Congo
>Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:27:16 + >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] >From: James Heartfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >The assassination of Congo president Laurent Kabila was greeted with >ill-disguised glee amongst Western commentators. It was not always thus. >US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright described Kabila as a 'beacon >of hope' and a 'strong new leader' when he took power from the ageing >dictator Mobutu in 1997. Then Kabila was supported by the State >Department's favorite regional dictators Paul Kagame of Rwanda, and >Yoweri Museveni of Uganda - the three lionised as a new generation of >African leaders. But since then Kabila, Museveni and Kagame fell out, >and the Rwandan army that had taken him to power, took arms against him, >plunging the country into war. > >Most surreal of all the comments on Kabila is the bandying about of >Ernesto 'Che' Guevara's assessment of Kabila's role in the Congo wars of >the 1960s. Very few present-day politicians would have met the Cuban >guerilla leader's exacting standards, but Guevara's critical comments on >Kabila are regularly quoted by newspapers that have no sympathy with >Guevara's goal of ridding the Congo of imperialism. Indeed, Richard >Gott, who republished Guevara's Congo diaries as a blast against Kabila >at the same time charges him with having 'alienated foreign investors by >refusing to make payments on the gigantic foreign debt of $14bn incurred >by his profligate predecessor' (Guardian January 19, 2001). > >The truth is that the future of the Congo continues to be decided by >forces outside its borders. On independence, the United Nations' own >envoy Conor Cruise O'Brien charged the UN with complicity in the murder >of radical prime minister Patrice Lumumba. The United States backed >dictator Mobutu's regime as a base for attacks on the radical >nationalist movement in Angola. Kabila's own rise to power was not >popular, but simply better supported. His subsequent fall was decided >not in the Congo, but Washington. > >-- >James Heartfield ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
