RE: Teaching: [L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo)
>No one on LBO talk could last five postings in a debate with the > Leninists who "dwell" on L-I, and they would never subject their fragile egos to > several posts with us anyways), but rather forwarded something from the "Week". It is true that they tend to avoid debate, but nonetheless there are some good economists and social thinkers there. You have to winnow a lot. But in any case, elists are not a substitute for real life, real struggles, and most of they are not a substitute for books and libraries (wherein indeed both Marx and Lenin spent the greater part of their adult lives: working in libraries). Mark ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: Teaching: [L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo)
> > >Suppose the same > > >piece had been signed by yours truly? Would you dismiss it the same way? > > > > Asking Me? I did not forward anything from LBO. So I can not technically dismiss > something I was not part of. . I must point out that this mail was sent out to many people (such as myself) that Heartfield "spams" weekly. I have never minded, seeing as I get some 100 mails a day despite it at any rate. I would bet Yoshie did not receive it from LBO-talk (and if she did, so what? No one on LBO talk could last five postings in a debate with the Leninists who "dwell" on L-I, and they would never subject their fragile egos to several posts with us anyways), but rather forwarded something from the "Week". The LBO talk crowd would be personally honored to come visit the home of the evil old stalwarts, the crotchety dinos who believe in Leninist solutions to "Post Modern" problems. Let em try it! Macdonald ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: Teaching: [L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo)
Hi Nestor! Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky wrote: > En relación a Re: Teaching: [L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo), > el 22 Jan 01, a las 0:40, Mine Aysen Doyran dijo (to my deep sorrow): > > > > >> Try to grow upYoshie and stop teaching how to build the left to old timers > > like Lou. If your pretension is to recover the reputation of a right wing > > cult--LM-- and its long time defenders like J. H., I would just recommend you to > > improve on where you left on pen-l. > > >Please, please, Mine! We do not like JH very much here. Most don't like him at > >all. But why dismiss the info Yoshie has sent to the list? Suppose the same > >piece had been signed by yours truly? Would you dismiss it the same way? > Asking Me? I did not forward anything from LBO. So I can not technically dismiss something I was not part of. . > > >I don't think Yoshie is trying to teach anything to old timers such as Lou Pr., > >Mark, or me. I did not say you or Mark. I said Lou. For the record, my "teaching" post was a reponse to "learning" post. > >At any rate, let us face it, we have not taken power, yet. And > that is the ultimate test. If I am not wrong, most people on this list is more > used to plane crashes than to safe landings. > > >So that, again, since it was me who insisted on debating Kabila (is Yoshie > wrong in saying he was an opportunist? is Mark wrong in saying he was a SOB?), > please let us leave that (for the benefit of Mine) British imperialist in > disguise JH in peace, and let us plunge into the Congolese issue. > good idea. But I am technically not on the list. So you guys discuss the uses of JH's analysis for Congo. bye co-moderator Mine > > Please? > > Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international -- Mine Aysen Doyran Ph.D Student Department of Political Science SUNY at Albany Nelson A. Rockefeller College 135 Western Ave.; Milne 102 Albany, NY 1 Shop online without a credit card http://www.rocketcash.com RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: Teaching: [L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo)
En relación a Re: Teaching: [L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo), el 22 Jan 01, a las 0:40, Mine Aysen Doyran dijo (to my deep sorrow): > > Try to grow upYoshie and stop teaching how to build the left to old timers > like Lou. If your pretension is to recover the reputation of a right wing > cult--LM-- and its long time defenders like J. H., I would just recommend you to > improve on where you left on pen-l. Please, please, Mine! We do not like JH very much here. Most don't like him at all. But why dismiss the info Yoshie has sent to the list? Suppose the same piece had been signed by yours truly? Would you dismiss it the same way? I don't think Yoshie is trying to teach anything to old timers such as Lou Pr., Mark, or me. At any rate, let us face it, we have not taken power, yet. And that is the ultimate test. If I am not wrong, most people on this list is more used to plane crashes than to safe landings. So that, again, since it was me who insisted on debating Kabila (is Yoshie wrong in saying he was an opportunist? is Mark wrong in saying he was a SOB?), please let us leave that (for the benefit of Mine) British imperialist in disguise JH in peace, and let us plunge into the Congolese issue. Please? Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo)
En relación a Re: [L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo), el 21 Jan 01, a las 23:21, Louis Proyect dijo: > People who network with > the Wise Use movement are not part of the left, Yoshie. The Committee in > Defense of Private Property placed the Furedi-ite Channel 4 documentary > attacking the Greens on their website, while their leader Ron Arnold wrote > for LM magazine. This is the same Ron Arnold who worked for Reverend Moon. > Is Ron Arnold part of the left? Exactly who on the left has associated > themselves with this cult other than Doug Henwood? Maybe I am a bit off tune here. But I have found more interesting insights on, say, American imperialism or British imperialism in the River Plate (and sometimes, even on socialism) among people who not only are considered to be, but actually brag on their being, "right", than on most of the crap soaked in stenching ink produced by the proud Argentinean "Left". So that I would suggest to stick to data. Whatever the source. Henry Kissinger's articles are very instructive, indeed. Why not J. Heartfield's? > > Louis Proyect > Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/ > > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo)
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: > Lou writes: > > > >Well, I know that not everybody on L-I has a liking for Heartfield, and > >yours > >>truly has personally clashed with him on first acquaintance. But this > >posting > >>is at least as enlightening as Patrick's. > >> > >>Never runs smooth the path of true love, or something like that... > >> > >>Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >On the back of the November 2000 issue of the University of Kent Newsletter > >is a diary item by Frank Füredi--Heartfield's guru--about worries on the > >eve of his appearance on British radio. It reads in part: > > Yoshie said: > >I don't recommend the mode of argument -- if you can call it that -- > What don't you recommend? Lou is presenting an historical information above with an argument. Relax and try to engage in it..His information is fully welcome. > >that you are employing here. In many circles, purist leftists tried > to discredit _everything_ that Michel Chossudovsky wrote because he > cited a couple of right-wing sources in his articles, etc.; _all_ > info provided by Jared Israel because of his willingness to share the > podium with Justin Raimondo, etc.; etc. Your argument is similar to > their tactics. > > >One should be willing to learn about Z from even those with whom one > disagrees on A-Y; and learning about Z from someone doesn't imply the > acceptance of his or her views on A-Y. It's as simple as that. > Unfortunately, few Western leftists are capable of doing so. We have > a long way to go before rebuilding the Left. > > >Yoshie > > opposing for the sake of opposing, it seems... Mine > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international -- Mine Aysen Doyran Ph.D Student Department of Political Science SUNY at Albany Nelson A. Rockefeller College 135 Western Ave.; Milne 102 Albany, NY 1 Shop online without a credit card http://www.rocketcash.com RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: Teaching: [L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo)
Try to grow upYoshie and stop teaching how to build the left to old timers like Lou. If your pretension is to recover the reputation of a right wing cult--LM-- and its long time defenders like J. H., I would just recommend you to improve on where you left on pen-l. Why to post J.H here, but not someone else more useful to the purpose of L-I? You know that it will receive nothing but endless controversies about a figure who is not even on the list. This being the case, Lou's criticism of H was right on target. Frankly, I don't know what your problem was with Lou's reply, but I found your "Learning" post opposition for the sake of opposing. If I were you, I would simply engage in what Lou was trying to say. in any case, I was just checking my e-mail although I am supposed to be technically away. co-moderator Mine >Louis Proyect wrote: > >I don't recommend the mode of argument -- if you can call it that -- > >that you are employing here. In many circles, purist leftists tried > >to discredit _everything_ that Michel Chossudovsky wrote because he > >cited a couple of right-wing sources in his articles, etc.; _all_ > >info provided by Jared Israel because of his willingness to share the > >podium with Justin Raimondo, etc.; etc. Your argument is similar to > >their tactics. > > Chussodovsky is a revolutionary. Furedi is a libertarian. That's what he > told the Guardian newspaper. Look at Yoshie trying to dissolve the class > line between us and a libertarian who sets up conferences with a shadowy > 'intelligence-gathering' consulting company paying top dollar to set up a > table in the lobby. Do you think the bourgeois press is lying when it > states that all these people from Furedi's group are collaborating with > ultrarightists? > > >One should be willing to learn about Z from even those with whom one > >disagrees on A-Y; and learning about Z from someone doesn't imply the > >acceptance of his or her views on A-Y. It's as simple as that. > >Unfortunately, few Western leftists are capable of doing so. We have > >a long way to go before rebuilding the Left. > > Empty platitudes. > > Rebuilding the left? Everybody in Great Britain agrees that the LM cult is > a renegade from Marxism. Even Phil Ferguson, their erstwhile supporter, > says that they are no longer part of the left. Perhaps we have > disagreements about what the "left" means, Yoshie. People who network with > the Wise Use movement are not part of the left, Yoshie. The Committee in > Defense of Private Property placed the Furedi-ite Channel 4 documentary > attacking the Greens on their website, while their leader Ron Arnold wrote > for LM magazine. This is the same Ron Arnold who worked for Reverend Moon. > Is Ron Arnold part of the left? Exactly who on the left has associated > themselves with this cult other than Doug Henwood? > > Louis Proyect > Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/ > > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international -- Mine Aysen Doyran Ph.D Student Department of Political Science SUNY at Albany Nelson A. Rockefeller College 135 Western Ave.; Milne 102 Albany, NY 1 Shop online without a credit card http://www.rocketcash.com RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo)
>I don't recommend the mode of argument -- if you can call it that -- >that you are employing here. In many circles, purist leftists tried >to discredit _everything_ that Michel Chossudovsky wrote because he >cited a couple of right-wing sources in his articles, etc.; _all_ >info provided by Jared Israel because of his willingness to share the >podium with Justin Raimondo, etc.; etc. Your argument is similar to >their tactics. Chussodovsky is a revolutionary. Furedi is a libertarian. That's what he told the Guardian newspaper. Look at Yoshie trying to dissolve the class line between us and a libertarian who sets up conferences with a shadowy 'intelligence-gathering' consulting company paying top dollar to set up a table in the lobby. Do you think the bourgeois press is lying when it states that all these people from Furedi's group are collaborating with ultrarightists? >One should be willing to learn about Z from even those with whom one >disagrees on A-Y; and learning about Z from someone doesn't imply the >acceptance of his or her views on A-Y. It's as simple as that. >Unfortunately, few Western leftists are capable of doing so. We have >a long way to go before rebuilding the Left. Empty platitudes. Rebuilding the left? Everybody in Great Britain agrees that the LM cult is a renegade from Marxism. Even Phil Ferguson, their erstwhile supporter, says that they are no longer part of the left. Perhaps we have disagreements about what the "left" means, Yoshie. People who network with the Wise Use movement are not part of the left, Yoshie. The Committee in Defense of Private Property placed the Furedi-ite Channel 4 documentary attacking the Greens on their website, while their leader Ron Arnold wrote for LM magazine. This is the same Ron Arnold who worked for Reverend Moon. Is Ron Arnold part of the left? Exactly who on the left has associated themselves with this cult other than Doug Henwood? Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/ ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] Learning (was Re: Congo)
Lou writes: > >Well, I know that not everybody on L-I has a liking for Heartfield, and >yours >>truly has personally clashed with him on first acquaintance. But this >posting >>is at least as enlightening as Patrick's. >> >>Never runs smooth the path of true love, or something like that... >> >>Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >On the back of the November 2000 issue of the University of Kent Newsletter >is a diary item by Frank Füredi--Heartfield's guru--about worries on the >eve of his appearance on British radio. It reads in part: I don't recommend the mode of argument -- if you can call it that -- that you are employing here. In many circles, purist leftists tried to discredit _everything_ that Michel Chossudovsky wrote because he cited a couple of right-wing sources in his articles, etc.; _all_ info provided by Jared Israel because of his willingness to share the podium with Justin Raimondo, etc.; etc. Your argument is similar to their tactics. One should be willing to learn about Z from even those with whom one disagrees on A-Y; and learning about Z from someone doesn't imply the acceptance of his or her views on A-Y. It's as simple as that. Unfortunately, few Western leftists are capable of doing so. We have a long way to go before rebuilding the Left. Yoshie ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
