Re: Jupyter vs Leo + VR3

[Thomas Passin]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 6:42:01 PM UTC-4, Edward K. Ream wrote:

> As you say, at present the ipynb.do_cell method (in importers/ipynb.py) 
> doesn't save much. It should be easy to save more, if you would like that.
>

Easy, perhaps, but I would go slowly, because we need to look at how best 
to fit it into VR3-style node trees, and also to see if we can have a hope 
of round-tripping with good fidelity.  Of course, I have only a general 
idea of how the notebook structure works, and I'm sure you are way ahead of 
me there.

 Tom

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Re: About zoom vs leo-editor

[Matt Wilkie]

>
> Imagine Leo turned to this task, headlines would label snippets of audio 
> captured in their body


I started a course today called Introduction to Mathematical Thinking 
.
 
One of the things this offering has that beats the pants off other video 
courses I've been subjected to is that it has a full text transcript, and 
they are tied together. Skip ahead in the video and so does the transcript. 
Click on a sentence in the transcript and it jumps to that part of the 
video. I would love to have this in podcasts and especially audio books.

I don't think I'd like it in Leo for my own work, the sound of my own 
recorded voice is just too wierd, but I can certainly imagine using Leo to 
grab and re-arrange snippets from lectures and so on.

-matt

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Re: font size shrank

[andyjim]

I closed and reopened Leo.  Should have thought to try that.  It worked.

btheado I'm on an iMac. I must have done something to cause it, but I dunno 
what.

Thanks, 
Andy

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Re: About zoom vs leo-editor

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:54 PM john lunzer  wrote:

> Sometimes it's just *nice* to talk to someone.
>

Yes!

Edward

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Re: Jupyter vs Leo + VR3

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 11:35 AM Thomas Passin  wrote:

I tried importing a notebook using the importer from the Files/Import Files
> menu.  It didn't bring everything in, just the text cells.  If there is
> another importer, I don't know if it so I didn't try it.
>

There is only one importer ;-) As of ced8b2e in devel the
import-jupyter-notebooks command has some chance of working. Clearly,
nobody has used this command recently.

As you say, at present the ipynb.do_cell method (in importers/ipynb.py)
doesn't save much. It should be easy to save more, if you would like that.

Edward

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Re: font size shrank

[Brian Theado]

BTW, I meant two finger drag up and down on the mouse trackpad.

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 4:26 PM Brian Theado  wrote:

> Are you using leo on a Mac laptop? I've found it easy to accidentally
> change the font size in the body when on Mac. It took me a long time to
> figure out what gesture caused it. If you hold down the Command key and two
> finger drag up and down, the font size will shrink and grow respectively.
> I'm not sure how I manage to "accidentally" make that gesture, but it
> happened to me every few weeks before I finally figured it out.
>
> Thomas' suggestion to re-open the outline would probably also resolve it.
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 2:36 PM andyjim  wrote:
>
>> All was well this morning, but just now when I came back to Leo I find
>> the font size in the bodies of all nodes has shrunk to unreadably small
>> size.  Text in the node headings is ok.  This is only for one of six files
>> I have open. The other five files are as usual.
>> I do not know how to correct this.
>>
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>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: font size shrank

[Brian Theado]

Are you using leo on a Mac laptop? I've found it easy to accidentally
change the font size in the body when on Mac. It took me a long time to
figure out what gesture caused it. If you hold down the Command key and two
finger drag up and down, the font size will shrink and grow respectively.
I'm not sure how I manage to "accidentally" make that gesture, but it
happened to me every few weeks before I finally figured it out.

Thomas' suggestion to re-open the outline would probably also resolve it.

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 2:36 PM andyjim  wrote:

> All was well this morning, but just now when I came back to Leo I find the
> font size in the bodies of all nodes has shrunk to unreadably small size.
> Text in the node headings is ok.  This is only for one of six files I have
> open. The other five files are as usual.
> I do not know how to correct this.
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: font size shrank

[Thomas Passin]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:36:38 PM UTC-4, andyjim wrote:
>
> All was well this morning, but just now when I came back to Leo I find the 
> font size in the bodies of all nodes has shrunk to unreadably small size.  
> Text in the node headings is ok.  This is only for one of six files I have 
> open. The other five files are as usual.
> I do not know how to correct this.
>

It would be worthwhile closing that outline and reloading it. Sometimes 
I've seen that to correct problems.

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Re: font size shrank

[Thomas Passin]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:36:38 PM UTC-4, andyjim wrote:
>
> All was well this morning, but just now when I came back to Leo I find the 
> font size in the bodies of all nodes has shrunk to unreadably small size.  
> Text in the node headings is ok.  This is only for one of six files I have 
> open. The other five files are as usual.
> I do not know how to correct this.
>

It's a pretty weird thing to happen.  I would suggest closing Leo and 
deleting the file .leo/db.  I think I remember that we talked about doing 
that once before.  Also it would be worth deleting the leo.session file in 
the same .leo directory.

This will be annoying because when you start up again, all the window and 
pane sizes will be wrong, and the panes may not be where you want them, so 
some fiddling around may be needed for a time.

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font size shrank

[andyjim]

All was well this morning, but just now when I came back to Leo I find the 
font size in the bodies of all nodes has shrunk to unreadably small size.  
Text in the node headings is ok.  This is only for one of six files I have 
open. The other five files are as usual.
I do not know how to correct this.

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Re: Leo and Jupyter

[Thomas Passin]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 11:44:23 AM UTC-4, tfer wrote:
>
> There is another option we could consider, rather than full juypter stuff, 
> just add an Ipython console tab to the log pane.  Though not as sexy as 
> Juypter, it has most of its guts, is embed-able, and has a qt-console 
> version.
>

The thing is, I don't see the point of working with Jupyter/ipython in Leo 
unless we can actually make use of Leo's strengths.  Otherwise, Jupyter 
notebooks are very good, highly developed, and have many features (like 
their kernels for other languages and widgets) that we will never be able 
to duplicate in Leo.  Leo is especially good at at navigation, viewing, and 
and modification of the outline, and I don't want to give that up.

The whole point of thinking about getting Leo to play with Jupyter would be 
to be potentially share notebooks with Jupyter users.  Otherwise, we can 
just make Leo notebooks using VR3 or some similar plugin - I think I'd be 
happy with that - and we get all the advantages of Leo and the 
notebook-style approach.  And it would be a lot easier in terms of 
development effort.

That's my thinking, anyway.

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Re: About zoom vs leo-editor

[john lunzer]

Sometimes it's just *nice* to talk to someone.

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 12:06:05 PM UTC-4, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:19 AM Matt Wilkie  > wrote:
>
> To my mind face-to-face and text and audio and video each have their 
>> merit, and each with their own most appropriate applications. And all best 
>> used in augmentation with their bretheren rather than supplanting.
>>
>
> I agree. I think I was over-weighting the importance of proximity.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: About zoom vs leo-editor

['tfer' via leo-editor]

Just like the outliner "More" provided inspiration for Leo, Leo provides me 
with inspiration for various thinking, capturing, organizing tools.  I've 
mentioned my idea for a presentation plugin for reveal.js, here's another.

Now that solid state memory has freed us from from the micro-cassettes of 
yore, I'm amazed of how little innovation there has been in voice recorder 
apps.  Something that allows for more than labeling a big block of 
narration is needed.

Imagine Leo turned to this task, headlines would label snippets of audio 
captured in their body.  To give a visual representation of the ongoing 
capture, generate a sequence of dashes to represent words, (not exact, more 
to hint and show duration).  You could add to this by adding punctuation 
via the keyboard while dictating.  Headlines can typed in and the snippets 
rearranged/split/combined.  Speech to text can be applied, (more to sharpen 
the visual representation then to provide text, STT is still pretty iffy -- 
but it could do a better job at providing dashes for words, maybe add an 
initial an final letter to some.  The text would be available in another 
pane, a "pacer" would follow along with playback.

The biggest thing this all provides is a way to capture 
thoughts/conversations and a way to access them in a non-linear way.

Tom

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Re: Jupyter vs Leo + VR3

[Thomas Passin]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 9:28:01 AM UTC-4, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 8:19 AM Thomas Passin  > wrote:
>
> Thomas, seems like we agree on points 1 through 3.
>
> >> 4. In the (unlikely?) event that people want to use both Leo and 
> jupyter, Leo can already import/export with jupyter
>
> > Here I differ.  Leo cannot import/export anything Jupyter-ish but text 
> nodes (and maybe code, I'm not sure).  
>
> Are you talking about the .ipynb importer?
>
> > Not code execution results, and certainly not live interaction outputs.
>
> Are you sure? Don't .ipynb include everything? 
>

I tried importing a notebook using the importer from the Files/Import Files 
menu.  It didn't bring everything in, just the text cells.  If there is 
another importer, I don't know if it so I didn't try it.

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Re: About zoom vs leo-editor

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:19 AM Matt Wilkie  wrote:

To my mind face-to-face and text and audio and video each have their merit,
> and each with their own most appropriate applications. And all best used in
> augmentation with their bretheren rather than supplanting.
>

I agree. I think I was over-weighting the importance of proximity.

Edward

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Re: Leo and Jupyter

['tfer' via leo-editor]

There is another option we could consider, rather than full juypter stuff, 
just add an Ipython console tab to the log pane.  Though not as sexy as 
Juypter, it has most of its guts, is embed-able, and has a qt-console 
version.

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Re: About zoom vs leo-editor

[Matt Wilkie]

To my mind face-to-face and text and audio and video each have their merit, 
and each with their own most appropriate applications. And all best used in 
augmentation with their bretheren rather than supplanting.

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Re: Jupyter vs Leo + VR3

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 8:19 AM Thomas Passin  wrote:

Thomas, seems like we agree on points 1 through 3.

>> 4. In the (unlikely?) event that people want to use both Leo and
jupyter, Leo can already import/export with jupyter

> Here I differ.  Leo cannot import/export anything Jupyter-ish but text
nodes (and maybe code, I'm not sure).

Are you talking about the .ipynb importer?

> Not code execution results, and certainly not live interaction outputs.

Are you sure? Don't .ipynb include everything?

> That's why I posted that we would need to improve import/export to be
able to properly share with non-Leo Jupyter folks.  And even then, I don't
see that we'd want to try to duplicate Jupyter's %-magic machinery.

Better importers and exports are always welcome.


> *No jupyter bridge needed*
>
> Yes!  Exactly what I've been saying.  Glad you see it too!
>

Oh good :-)

> Although there is one scenario where it might be worthwhile using a
> Jupyter kernel server.  That would be if you wanted to execute a very long
> calculation.  You'd want to do that asynchronously, so you don't tie Leo up
> waiting for it to finish, and Jupyter is designed to do that.
>

Does vr3 needs to support this? Couldn't users use popen to run
calculations in a separate process? Or they could just use jupyter...

Edward

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Re: Jupyter vs Leo + VR3

[Thomas Passin]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:24:52 AM UTC-4, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> Thomas, this post is an indirect response to some of your recent remarks. 
> There is some chance I understand them now ;-)
>

It's hard to grasp some of these things until you get time to work with VR3 
for a while.  I have the advantage there!  One reason that VR3 has good 
potential here is that I was interested from the start in a 
literate-programming style capability, to be made as easy as possible.  So 
I was bound and determined to get the interleaved capability.
 

> When I awoke this morning I saw that Leo + vr3 looks to be *superior *to 
> Jupyter! vr3 adds all essential features of Jupyter notebooks and cells, 
> while retaining Leo's unique features:
>
> 1. Interleaved @language directives is *way *better than the clumsy 
> dropdown menu in Jupyter that selects the default view.
>

It's also possible to have separate nodes for each thing, the way that 
Jupyter notebooks do it.  With VR3, you also have the option to have more 
related things in the same node, which I happen to like.
 

> 2. vr3 is aware of outline structure.
>
> 3. Leo + vr3 naturally retains all of Leo's superior organizational 
> abilities.
>

For me, this is *the *main reason I'd like to use Leo rather than Jupyter.  
And BTW, if you want to share a program with someone else, and I mean just 
the code itself, you can choose to render only the code blocks, export to a 
browser, and copy the program directly from there for pasting into a file.  
It would be easy to add an *Export Code to File* function, and I will 
probably do that at some point, but I want to keep the UI as simple as 
possible so I'm waiting until I get a good idea about that.
 

> 4. In the (unlikely?) event that people want to use both Leo and jupyter, 
> Leo can already import/export with jupyter
>

Here I differ.  Leo cannot import/export anything Jupyter-ish but text 
nodes (and maybe code, I'm not sure).  Not code execution results, and 
certainly not live interaction outputs.  That's why I posted that we would 
need to improve import/export to be able to properly share with non-Leo 
Jupyter folks.  And even then, I don't see that we'd want to try to 
duplicate Jupyter's %-magic machinery.  
 

> *No jupyter bridge needed*
>
> Yes!  Exactly what I've been saying.  Glad you see it too!  Although there 
> is one scenario where it might be worthwhile using a Jupyter kernel 
> server.  That would be if you wanted to execute a very long calculation.  
> You'd want to do that asynchronously, so you don't tie Leo up waiting for 
> it to finish, and Jupyter is designed to do that.
>
 

> *Summary*
>
> Thomas's vr3 plugin makes every Leo node work like an *enhanced* jupyter 
> cell.
>
> All comments welcome.
>
> Edward
>

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Leo will be in good hands after I am gone

[Edward K. Ream]

The following remarks have been on my mind lately:

1. I have been happy to see various "side" conversations in leo-editor. 
They have not needed my comments. I am heartened by their quality and 
independence.

2. I am not going designate a successor. Leadership structure will likely 
evolve informally. I recommend something *loosely *based on Apache merit 
. "Those who have proven they can do, get 
to do more".

3. Imo, leaders should focus *first and always* on maintaining Leo's 
respectful communications. Something like the python code of conduct 
 or apache code of conduct 
 should always be 
on your minds. The goal should be to encourage others, not to show how 
dashed smart you are.

Leo is blessed with code, distribution and documentation gurus, and a 
chorus proposing improvements :-) All of you give me confidence that Leo's 
community will continue to thrive after I am gone.

Edward

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Jupyter vs Leo + VR3

[Edward K. Ream]

Thomas, this post is an indirect response to some of your recent remarks. 
There is some chance I understand them now ;-)

When I awoke this morning I saw that Leo + vr3 looks to be *superior *to 
Jupyter! vr3 adds all essential features of Jupyter notebooks and cells, 
while retaining Leo's unique features:

1. Interleaved @language directives is *way *better than the clumsy 
dropdown menu in Jupyter that selects the default view.

2. vr3 is aware of outline structure.

3. Leo + vr3 naturally retains all of Leo's superior organizational 
abilities.

4. In the (unlikely?) event that people want to use both Leo and jupyter, 
Leo can already import/export with jupyter.

*No jupyter bridge needed*

This page  
discusses using bokeh with jupyter. I'm not sure what this page is getting 
at, but the page appears moot.

I had been thinking of resuscitating #1386 
, but that issue 
looks like it can remain a "Won'tDo".

*Summary*

Thomas's vr3 plugin makes every Leo node work like an *enhanced* jupyter 
cell.

All comments welcome.

Edward

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About zoom vs leo-editor

[Edward K. Ream]

When I awoke this morning I saw that our text communications in leo-editor 
have significant advantages over zoom conversations: they are public and 
permanent. We can read and reread postings at our leisure.

I have been overestimating the value of face-to-face discussions based on a 
paper (probably in Nature or Science) that stated that physical proximity 
of collaborators improved their creativity/innovation. That conclusion 
*might* still be true, but that paper was written a long time ago by 
internet standards.

*Summary*

zoom is great for getting acquainted. I'll be happy to set up a zoom time 
with any of you.

Imo, the leo-editor forum is significantly better than zoom for engineering 
discussions.

Edward

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Re: Leo 6.2.1 released

[Edward K. Ream]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 5:33 PM Matt Wilkie  wrote:

> Thanks Edward
>

You're welcome.

Edward

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