Re: Leo vs org mode

[lewis]

OK thanks. It seems I wasn't running fast enough

On Saturday, February 18, 2017 at 12:33:59 AM UTC+11, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 5:42 AM, lewis  > wrote:
>
>> I checked all the TOC headings to ensure headings/tiles are matching. A 
>> user may find it annoying if the the link says "A brief summary of Leo" but 
>> the title at that page says "Preface"
>>
>
> ​Did you reload the page?  I fixed this several hours ago.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: Leo vs org mode

[Arjan]

>
> A good table editor would be nice, it should read/write from 
> markdown/rst/latex/html.  I suspect there's been at least one iteration of 
> such a thing, in the distant past. If I had an urgent need to edit tables 
> in Leo, I'd probably edit them in the richtext plugin (CKEditor) and script 
> the results to whatever format I wanted.
>

As an aside, perhaps https://prosemirror.net/ would be an interesting 
alternative for CKEditor: it is lightweight, and supports markdown as 
document format (other formats like RST could be supported by writing a 
plugin). And it also has a table editor, though I don't know how ready it 
is.

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Re: Leo vs org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 5:42 AM, lewis  wrote:

> I checked all the TOC headings to ensure headings/tiles are matching. A
> user may find it annoying if the the link says "A brief summary of Leo" but
> the title at that page says "Preface"
>

​Did you reload the page?  I fixed this several hours ago.

Edward

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Re: Leo vs org mode

[lewis]

I checked all the TOC headings to ensure headings/tiles are matching. A 
user may find it annoying if the the link says "A brief summary of Leo" but 
the title at that page says "Preface"
This occurs at http://leoeditor.com/leo_toc.html > 
http://leoeditor.com/preface.html

Regards
Lewis

On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 8:11:32 PM UTC+11, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 3:47:01 PM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> I have just rediscovered Leo's preface , 
> which is pretty much a repeat of Leo's strengths. This must be renamed, and 
> there must be a link to it from the body of Leo's home page. 
>

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Re: Leo vs org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 3:47:01 PM UTC-6, Edward K. Ream wrote:

Leo has its own strengths:...There may be more ;-)
>

I forgot @command, @button, @test.

I have just rediscovered Leo's preface , 
which is pretty much a repeat of Leo's strengths. This must be renamed, and 
there must be a link to it from the body of Leo's home page.  

These three links should appear in the body of the home page, right after 
the sentence:

Leo's organizes data in a revolutionary way. (period, not colon).

A brief summary of Leo (link to preface, with a new title).
What people are saying about Leo
Learn Leo in 10 minutes

The home page will restate what is in the summary. I'll also use an updated 
screenshot on the home page, that will show users what they will see when 
they open Leo for the first time (the workbook, with cheat sheet).

Edward

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Re: Leo vs org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 4:22 PM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor <
leo-editor@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I guess I wonder which tasks can currently only be accomplished with org
> mode, and not Leo.
>
> I thought Leo had recently acquired support for multiple source
> languages?  Or are you talking about executing, not syntax highlighting?
>

​Correct. Leo needs to support, C, C#, C++, Java, etc.​


>
> A good table editor would be nice, it should read/write from
> markdown/rst/latex/html.  I suspect there's been at least one iteration of
> such a thing, in the distant past. If I had an urgent need to edit tables
> in Leo, I'd probably edit them in the richtext plugin (CKEditor) and script
> the results to whatever format I wanted.
>

​Thanks for this tip.  Still, I think we have to follow org-mode's way on
this.​


>
> The rest of it would be easier to evaluate in terms tasks made easier /
> possible.
>
> In terms of user base, I think we all agree Leo has multiple potential
> audiences. Emacs users will very techy people, generally.
>

​I have a bit of Jupyter envy in me :-)

Edward

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Re: Leo vs org mode

['Terry Brown' via leo-editor]

I guess I wonder which tasks can currently only be accomplished with org mode, 
and not Leo.
I thought Leo had recently acquired support for multiple source languages?  Or 
are you talking about executing, not syntax highlighting?
A good table editor would be nice, it should read/write from 
markdown/rst/latex/html.  I suspect there's been at least one iteration of such 
a thing, in the distant past. If I had an urgent need to edit tables in Leo, 
I'd probably edit them in the richtext plugin (CKEditor) and script the results 
to whatever format I wanted. 
The rest of it would be easier to evaluate in terms tasks made easier / 
possible.
In terms of user base, I think we all agree Leo has multiple potential 
audiences. Emacs users will very techy people, generally.
Cheers -Terry

  From: Edward K. Ream <edream...@gmail.com>
 To: leo-editor <leo-editor@googlegroups.com> 
 Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:47 PM
 Subject: Leo vs org mode
   
A brief comparison of Leo and org mode.

Org mode has these strengths:

- Drawers: visible, pure text, easily extensible uA's.
- Agendas and tables.
- In-pane rendering of Latex and special symbols.
- Support for multiple source languages, including shell scripts, C, etc.
- Code blocks, with arguments.
- Result blocks.

Leo will have all of the above this year. Leo has its own strengths:

- Automatic tangling when saving files.
- @others, missing from org mode's noweb markup.
- Untangling: automatic update of @file nodes. Completely missing from org mode.
  In essence, all org mode files are @nosent files.
- Importers. There are importers, but apparently none for programming languages.
- Clones and especially clone-find commands.
- API: org mode does have a hacking api. It's oriented towards parsing body 
text.
- DOM: org mode simulates a DOM with filters. Org mode data is fundamentally 
text.
- Python scripting, including a python plugin architecture.

There may be more ;-)

Conclusion: It may still be true, in some limited areas, that Leo can do things 
that can even be thought in org mode.  However, that statement is no longer 
generally true, and I'll remove it from all future documentation.

All additions and corrections welcome.

Edward
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Leo vs org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

A brief comparison of Leo and org mode.

Org mode has these strengths:

- Drawers: visible, pure text, easily extensible uA's.
- Agendas and tables.
- In-pane rendering of Latex and special symbols.
- Support for multiple source languages, including shell scripts, C, etc.
- Code blocks, with arguments.
- Result blocks.

Leo will have all of the above this year. Leo has its own strengths:

- Automatic tangling when saving files.
- @others, missing from org mode's noweb markup.
- Untangling: automatic update of @file nodes. Completely missing from org 
mode.
  In essence, all org mode files are @nosent files.
- Importers. There are importers, but apparently none for programming 
languages.
- Clones and especially clone-find commands.
- API: org mode does have a hacking api 
<http://orgmode.org/manual/Hacking.html#Hacking>. It's oriented towards 
parsing body text.
- DOM: org mode simulates a DOM with filters. Org mode data is 
fundamentally text.
- Python scripting, including a python plugin architecture.

There may be more ;-)

*Conclusion*: It may still be true, in some limited areas, that Leo can do 
things that can even be *thought *in org mode.  However, that statement is 
no longer generally true, and I'll remove it from all future documentation.

All additions and corrections welcome.

Edward

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Re: Leo and Org-Mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Thursday, August 14, 2014 5:49:06 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:


  When importing an org-mode file the @auto-org-mode directive does not 
 get 
  inserted automatically. However, without having it, the original 
  org-mode-file is written in a way that makes it unusable for Emacs. So 
 one 
  has to insert @auto-org-mode by hand. I assume there is a reason for 
 that 
  but for the moment I don't understand why. 

 Sure there's a reason: it's a bug :-)  I'll see if I can fix it today.


Fixed at rev 6d9af6f... This is surprisingly tricky code.  Please let me 
know how it works for you.

The importers for .org and .otl now insert the standard warning that the 
text of the top-level @auto node will be ignored when writing the file.

EKR

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Leo and Org-Mode

[Christoph]

Hi,

Today I managed to import, modify and write within Leo an org-mode file 
I had previously created with Emacs. I must say that I'm impressed. 
Great work!


When importing an org-mode file the @auto-org-mode directive does not 
get inserted automatically. However, without having it, the original 
org-mode-file is written in a way that makes it unusable for Emacs. So 
one has to insert @auto-org-mode by hand. I assume there is a reason for 
that but for the moment I don't understand why. Wouldn't it be more 
convenient? After all when importing the org-mode file Leo automatically 
recognizes that it is an org-mode file. So why not acknowledging that 
fact by inserting an @auto directive. (Sorry, if the answer is obvious, 
I just have begun to experiment with Leo). Thanks in advance.


Kind regards

Christoph


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Re: Leo and Org-Mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Christoph rho...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,

 Today I managed to import, modify and write within Leo an org-mode file I
 had previously created with Emacs. I must say that I'm impressed. Great
 work!

Thanks.

 When importing an org-mode file the @auto-org-mode directive does not get
 inserted automatically. However, without having it, the original
 org-mode-file is written in a way that makes it unusable for Emacs. So one
 has to insert @auto-org-mode by hand. I assume there is a reason for that
 but for the moment I don't understand why.

Sure there's a reason: it's a bug :-)  I'll see if I can fix it today.

Edward

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Leo vs org mode

[Edward K. Ream]

Org mode is kinda like Leo for Emacs: http://orgmode.org/manual/index.html

As a result of convergent evolution it has many of Leo's features:

- Outline commands: 
http://orgmode.org/manual/Structure-editing.html#Structure-editing

- To-do lists: http://orgmode.org/manual/TODO-Items.html#TODO-Items

- Hyperlinks: http://orgmode.org/manual/Hyperlinks.html#Hyperlinks

This is natural. 

But org mode lacks *all* of Leo's crucial scripting features:

1. Org mode gives scripts *no* access to org mode outlines! There is no 
API, for elisp or any other language. No predefined c,g,p. In org mode, 
**everything is just text**.

2. Org mode has no extensibility features: no plugin architecture, no event 
handlers, no @button.

3. Org mode has no clones, generators, or positions because everything is a 
simple tree.

It is possible to create source files using org mode:
http://orgmode.org/manual/Working-With-Source-Code.html#Working-With-Source-Code

But org mode is feeble in comparison:

- No @others(!!)  noweb is used as the markup--there is *no* integration of 
markup with outline structure.
- Source code must be delimited with markup(!!)
  
http://orgmode.org/manual/Structure-of-code-blocks.html#Structure-of-code-blocks
- No automatic tangling.
- No untangling at all.
- No automatic imports (@auto).

Emacs makes up for it's lack true outline structure with a huge user base, 
so most (not all!) Leo's features have gotten *simulated* in an ugly, 
hard-to-extend, way. But simulation has its limits: features like @button 
and @test does not exist in org mode.

Edward

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