subject:"Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer"

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-18 Thread Edward K. Ream

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Xavier G. Domingo (xgid) <
xgdomi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> OK, I would love to work in this one: *#762
>  quickstart.leo &
> CheatSheet.leo should demo Leo's features*
>

Thanks!

>  How do we go on now? Do you have any draft of your desired contents for
> this items?
>

No. But the general idea is to have a tree of example nodes.  I've just
pushed a version of leo\test\test.leo that moves VR examples as the last
top-level node.  There are many other nodes in that outline that might be
good for a demo.

Just tell me when you push additions to quickstart.leo and cheatsheet.leo
and I'll have a look.

Edward

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-18 Thread Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)


>
> But doing something about the ugly bits is typically difficult or 
>> impossible.  For starters, I recommend the easy things on the to-do list. 
>> They are typically marked with the First label 
>> 
>> .
>>
>> Edward
>>
>
OK, I would love to work in this one: *#762 
 quickstart.leo & 
CheatSheet.leo should demo Leo's features*
 
How do we go on now? Do you have any draft of your desired contents for 
this items?

Xavier

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-17 Thread Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)

OK, thanks for your comments. I'll take a look and see what get's my 
attention and let you know.

On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 6:54:58 AM UTC-3, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:15 AM, Xavier G. Domingo (xgid) <
> xgdo...@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>> Hi Edward, this is a great idea! I'll take your offer!
>>
>
> Excellent.  Glad to hear it.
>  
>
> I've been trying to get into Leo's code for some time now, so this is an 
>> opportunity I cannot miss. But what makes it a so great idea for me is that 
>> I happened to find Leo when I started a personal quest, after about 30 
>> years of programming, to *learn to program again, from scratch!* So this 
>> is for me the perfect match for both goals.
>>
>> I've had very few time lately, but I expect to have some more in the 
>> coming months, so let's try.
>>
>> But let me warn you: I always like to understand why things work as they 
>> do and will try hard to change them for better if I can... so I may be a 
>> "problematic student" in a sense. ;-) Do you get the challenge?
>>
>
> All good. Part of understanding code deeply is what I call "knowing where 
> the bodies are hidden" ;-) That is, knowing which part of the code are much 
> more ugly than one would want.
>
> But doing something about the ugly bits is typically difficult or 
> impossible.  For starters, I recommend the easy things on the to-do list. 
> They are typically marked with the First label 
> 
> .
>
> Edward
>

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-17 Thread Edward K. Ream

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:15 AM, Xavier G. Domingo (xgid) <
xgdomi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Edward, this is a great idea! I'll take your offer!
>

Excellent.  Glad to hear it.


I've been trying to get into Leo's code for some time now, so this is an
> opportunity I cannot miss. But what makes it a so great idea for me is that
> I happened to find Leo when I started a personal quest, after about 30
> years of programming, to *learn to program again, from scratch!* So this
> is for me the perfect match for both goals.
>
> I've had very few time lately, but I expect to have some more in the
> coming months, so let's try.
>
> But let me warn you: I always like to understand why things work as they
> do and will try hard to change them for better if I can... so I may be a
> "problematic student" in a sense. ;-) Do you get the challenge?
>

All good. Part of understanding code deeply is what I call "knowing where
the bodies are hidden" ;-) That is, knowing which part of the code are much
more ugly than one would want.

But doing something about the ugly bits is typically difficult or
impossible.  For starters, I recommend the easy things on the to-do list.
They are typically marked with the First label

.

Edward

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-16 Thread Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)

Hi Edward, this is a great idea! I'll take your offer!

I've been trying to get into Leo's code for some time now, so this is an 
opportunity I cannot miss. But what makes it a so great idea for me is that 
I happened to find Leo when I started a personal quest, after about 30 
years of programming, to *learn to program again, from scratch!* So this is 
for me the perfect match for both goals.

I've had very few time lately, but I expect to have some more in the coming 
months, so let's try.

But let me warn you: I always like to understand why things work as they do 
and will try hard to change them for better if I can... so I may be a 
"problematic student" in a sense. ;-) Do you get the challenge?

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 8:16:55 AM UTC-3, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> Yesterday I had an Aha. It's time to start training Leo devs 
> (developers)!  Leo's present devs are busy doing great work. We can't ask 
> them to do more.
>
> Leo's to-do list 
> 
>  
> has over 150 items. If you want one of those items, please consider adding 
> it yourself, *even if you aren't a programmer.* I'll teach you python and 
> Leo's internals.
>
> Python is easy to learn. After that, becoming acquainted with Leo's code 
> base will be easier than you might think.
>
> *Summary*
>
> If you have ever wanted to be a programmer, now is a great time ;-) I'll 
> be happy to answer *all *your questions.
>
> Training new devs will pay off handsomely (for me) in the long term.
>
> Edward
>
> P. S. From the fascinating 2018 Stack Overflow Developer Survey: 
> 
>
> "For the sixth year in a row, JavaScript is the most commonly used 
> programming language. Python has risen in the ranks, surpassing C# this 
> year, much like it surpassed PHP last year. Python has a solid claim to 
> being the fastest-growing major programming language 
> ."
>
> EKR
>

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-15 Thread Edward K. Ream

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Terry Brown  wrote:

>
> Not sure if it's relevant anywhere here, but we have also run into
> problems with the way Cython uses system libraries to get cwd info.
> which may translate /home/tbrown/leo to /mnt/usr1/t/leo etc. whether
> you want it to or not.
>

I'm not aware of any problems.  os.curdir returns the string '.', which is
kinda useless.  But afaik os.path.abspath/g.os_path_abspath translate '.'
to the expected directory.

Please file an issue if you know of a specific case where this is not true.

Edward

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-15 Thread Edward K. Ream

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Chris George  wrote:

"Be careful, though, because the path is relative to the CWD
>  at runtime,
> which the user might change."
>

That's why final stylesheet should/must use full, absolute paths.  I'm
working on it.

Edward

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-15 Thread Chris George




I just restarted Leo. Now I have the transparent icons. But only from 
~/dark, not ../leo/Icons/dark or ../le/themes/dark. I changed nothing. I 
barely breathed. 

Yet here they are.

Chris


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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-15 Thread Terry Brown

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:31:23 -0700 (PDT)
Chris George  wrote:

> This may be relevant: 
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/26121737/qt-stylesheet-background-image-from-filepath
> 
> "Be careful, though, because the path is relative to the CWD 
>  at runtime,
> which the user might change."
> 
> So I would test using pwd, and if CWD does not equal loadDir, set it
> to loadDir. Or, perhaps, just change CWD to loadDir.
> 
> This *might* explain why I was getting the transparent boxes
> sometimes and not at others. 

Not sure if it's relevant anywhere here, but we have also run into
problems with the way Cython uses system libraries to get cwd info.
which may translate /home/tbrown/leo to /mnt/usr1/t/leo etc. whether
you want it to or not.

> Chris
> 
> On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 6:40:57 AM UTC-7, Edward K. Ream wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 7:45 AM, Edward K. Ream  > > wrote:
> >>
> >> Contrary to your statement in #808, the recommended css is:
> >
> > Sorry, I was confused.  In #808 talk about other css.  You say:
> >
> > This is the Leo recommended css to add an image to the background.
> >
> > QTextEdit#richTextEdit {
> >   background-image: url(dark/logo.png);
> > }
> >
> > ... 
> >
> > The following *does *work...
> >
> > QTextEdit#richTextEdit {
> >   background-image:
> > url(/home/chris/leo-editor/leo/themes/dark/logo.png); }
> >
> > ...
> >
> > [This *doesn't* work]
> >
> > QTextEdit#richTextEdit {
> >   background-image: url(~/leo-editor/leo/themes/dark/logo.png);
> > }
> >
> > Ok.  This definitely *is* a teachable moment.
> >
> > We programmers often have to understand the process by which things 
> > happen.  We try to shield users when we can, not always
> > successfully. 
> >
> > Themes are a middle ground.  Theme designers (devs) sometimes can
> > act like users, and sometimes they must know all the grungy details.
> >
> > In this case, the principle is that the *final* stylesheet must
> > have absolute url's everywhere.  That is, Qt is going to look *in
> > one place only* for each piece of data.
> >
> > In *my *case, print-style-sheet shows the following:
> >
> > QTreeView::branch:closed:has-children{
> > image: 
> > url(C:/leo.repo/leo-editor/leo/Icons/nodes-dark/triangles/closed.png);
> > }
> > QTreeView::branch:open:has-children{
> > image:
> > url(C:/leo.repo/leo-editor/leo/Icons/nodes-dark/triangles/open.png); }
> >
> > Which means that (some part of) Leo has resolved:
> >
> > @string tree-image-closed = nodes-dark/triangles/closed.png
> > @string tree-image-open = nodes-dark/triangles/open.png 
> >
> > to full paths.  The question is, which parts (of Leo) convert
> > relative paths to absolute paths?
> > *Basic Skill 1*
> >
> > The relevant code turns out to be ssm.expand_css_constants &
> > helpers. 
> >
> > I could have found this by finding the StyleSheetManager (ssm)
> > class in qt_gui.py. A non-word search on "class style" finds this
> > class.
> >
> > So the first basic skill is knowing the classes that are relevant
> > to the task at hand. For themes, the two classes are the ssm class
> > and the LoadManager (LM) class in leoApp.py.
> >
> > *Basic Skill 2*
> >
> > I'm working on themes at present, so I had clones of most of the
> > relevant code in an organizer node.  I named this node "#766:
> > Create Theme menu, etc."
> >
> > This node was already the last top-level node of the outline, but
> > it could have been near the bottom of *another *organizer node
> > called "Recent code". The recent code organizer hides nodes so I
> > don't get overwhelmed by all the stuff on my plate. 
> >
> > The second basic skill is to keep clones of your recent work, where
> > you can find them easily.
> >
> > *ssm.expand_css_constants *
> >
> > To recap, the theme designer (dev) must ensure that stylesheets
> > contain only absolute urls.
> >
> > The dev could encode those url's directly in the stylesheet, but
> > that would make the stylesheet limited to a particular
> > environment.  So devs will use settings, and the css will include
> > @constants referencing those settings.  Like this:
> >
> > QTreeView::branch:closed:has-children{
> > image: @tree-image-closed;
> > }
> >
> > In short, ssm.xpand_css_constants replaces those @constant with
> > absolute urls.
> >
> > *A hack that must be generalized*
> >
> > Now we come to one of Leo's best features/conventions:
> >
> > *A method's children are its helper methods*
> >
> > Indeed, this was the first Aha in Leo's history: webs are outlines
> > in disguise. It was very difficult to see that Knuth's sections
> > were organized (in his mind only!) as an outline.  Leo makes this
> > explicit.
> >
> > This matter a great deal!  I *always* forget implementation
> > details, but the helpers show me where the details lie.
> >
> > In this case, one of ssm.expand_css_constants's children is 
> > ssm.set_indicator_paths. Here is its docstring:
> >
> > In the stylesheet

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-15 Thread Chris George

This may be relevant: 
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/26121737/qt-stylesheet-background-image-from-filepath

"Be careful, though, because the path is relative to the CWD 
 at runtime, which 
the user might change."


So I would test using pwd, and if CWD does not equal loadDir, set it to 
loadDir. Or, perhaps, just change CWD to loadDir.


This *might* explain why I was getting the transparent boxes sometimes and 
not at others. 


Chris


On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 6:40:57 AM UTC-7, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 7:45 AM, Edward K. Ream  > wrote:
>
>>
>> Contrary to your statement in #808, the recommended css is:
>>
>
> Sorry, I was confused.  In #808 talk about other css.  You say:
>
> This is the Leo recommended css to add an image to the background.
>
> QTextEdit#richTextEdit {
>   background-image: url(dark/logo.png);
> }
>
> ... 
>
> The following *does *work...
>
> QTextEdit#richTextEdit {
>   background-image: url(/home/chris/leo-editor/leo/themes/dark/logo.png);
> }
>
> ...
>
> [This *doesn't* work]
>
> QTextEdit#richTextEdit {
>   background-image: url(~/leo-editor/leo/themes/dark/logo.png);
> }
>
> Ok.  This definitely *is* a teachable moment.
>
> We programmers often have to understand the process by which things 
> happen.  We try to shield users when we can, not always successfully. 
>
> Themes are a middle ground.  Theme designers (devs) sometimes can act like 
> users, and sometimes they must know all the grungy details.
>
> In this case, the principle is that the *final* stylesheet must have 
> absolute url's everywhere.  That is, Qt is going to look *in one place 
> only* for each piece of data.
>
> In *my *case, print-style-sheet shows the following:
>
> QTreeView::branch:closed:has-children{
> image: 
> url(C:/leo.repo/leo-editor/leo/Icons/nodes-dark/triangles/closed.png);
> }
> QTreeView::branch:open:has-children{
> image: url(C:/leo.repo/leo-editor/leo/Icons/nodes-dark/triangles/open.png);
> }
>
> Which means that (some part of) Leo has resolved:
>
> @string tree-image-closed = nodes-dark/triangles/closed.png
> @string tree-image-open = nodes-dark/triangles/open.png 
>
> to full paths.  The question is, which parts (of Leo) convert relative 
> paths to absolute paths?
> *Basic Skill 1*
>
> The relevant code turns out to be ssm.expand_css_constants & helpers. 
>
> I could have found this by finding the StyleSheetManager (ssm) class in 
> qt_gui.py. A non-word search on "class style" finds this class.
>
> So the first basic skill is knowing the classes that are relevant to the 
> task at hand. For themes, the two classes are the ssm class and the 
> LoadManager (LM) class in leoApp.py.
>
> *Basic Skill 2*
>
> I'm working on themes at present, so I had clones of most of the relevant 
> code in an organizer node.  I named this node "#766: Create Theme menu, 
> etc."
>
> This node was already the last top-level node of the outline, but it could 
> have been near the bottom of *another *organizer node called "Recent 
> code". The recent code organizer hides nodes so I don't get overwhelmed by 
> all the stuff on my plate. 
>
> The second basic skill is to keep clones of your recent work, where you 
> can find them easily.
>
> *ssm.expand_css_constants *
>
> To recap, the theme designer (dev) must ensure that stylesheets contain 
> only absolute urls.
>
> The dev could encode those url's directly in the stylesheet, but that 
> would make the stylesheet limited to a particular environment.  So devs 
> will use settings, and the css will include @constants referencing those 
> settings.  Like this:
>
> QTreeView::branch:closed:has-children{
> image: @tree-image-closed;
> }
>
> In short, ssm.expand_css_constants replaces those @constant with absolute 
> urls.
>
> *A hack that must be generalized*
>
> Now we come to one of Leo's best features/conventions:
>
> *A method's children are its helper methods*
>
> Indeed, this was the first Aha in Leo's history: webs are outlines in 
> disguise. It was very difficult to see that Knuth's sections were organized 
> (in his mind only!) as an outline.  Leo makes this explicit.
>
> This matter a great deal!  I *always* forget implementation details, but 
> the helpers show me where the details lie.
>
> In this case, one of ssm.expand_css_constants's children is 
> ssm.set_indicator_paths. Here is its docstring:
>
> In the stylesheet, replace (if they exist)::
> image: @tree-image-closed
> image: @tree-image-open
> by::
> url(path/closed.png)
> url(path/open.png)
>
> path can be relative to ~ or to leo/Icons.
>
> ...
>
> And voila, we see:
>
> A. Where absolute urls get created.
>
> B. Why only certain paths work.
>
> C. How this "hacky" method might/must be extended to handle other 
> @constants.
>
> *Summary*
>
> It's much slower to explain all this than to do it. *Processes are easier 
> than descriptions*. 
>
> I want

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-15 Thread Edward K. Ream

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 7:45 AM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:

>
> Contrary to your statement in #808, the recommended css is:
>

Sorry, I was confused.  In #808 talk about other css.  You say:

This is the Leo recommended css to add an image to the background.

QTextEdit#richTextEdit {
  background-image: url(dark/logo.png);
}

...

The following *does *work...

QTextEdit#richTextEdit {
  background-image: url(/home/chris/leo-editor/leo/themes/dark/logo.png);
}

...

[This *doesn't* work]

QTextEdit#richTextEdit {
  background-image: url(~/leo-editor/leo/themes/dark/logo.png);
}

Ok.  This definitely *is* a teachable moment.

We programmers often have to understand the process by which things
happen.  We try to shield users when we can, not always successfully.

Themes are a middle ground.  Theme designers (devs) sometimes can act like
users, and sometimes they must know all the grungy details.

In this case, the principle is that the *final* stylesheet must have
absolute url's everywhere.  That is, Qt is going to look *in one place only*
for each piece of data.

In *my *case, print-style-sheet shows the following:

QTreeView::branch:closed:has-children{
image:
url(C:/leo.repo/leo-editor/leo/Icons/nodes-dark/triangles/closed.png);
}
QTreeView::branch:open:has-children{
image: url(C:/leo.repo/leo-editor/leo/Icons/nodes-dark/triangles/open.png);
}

Which means that (some part of) Leo has resolved:

@string tree-image-closed = nodes-dark/triangles/closed.png
@string tree-image-open = nodes-dark/triangles/open.png

to full paths.  The question is, which parts (of Leo) convert relative
paths to absolute paths?
*Basic Skill 1*

The relevant code turns out to be ssm.expand_css_constants & helpers.

I could have found this by finding the StyleSheetManager (ssm) class in
qt_gui.py. A non-word search on "class style" finds this class.

So the first basic skill is knowing the classes that are relevant to the
task at hand. For themes, the two classes are the ssm class and the
LoadManager (LM) class in leoApp.py.

*Basic Skill 2*

I'm working on themes at present, so I had clones of most of the relevant
code in an organizer node.  I named this node "#766: Create Theme menu,
etc."

This node was already the last top-level node of the outline, but it could
have been near the bottom of *another *organizer node called "Recent code".
The recent code organizer hides nodes so I don't get overwhelmed by all the
stuff on my plate.

The second basic skill is to keep clones of your recent work, where you can
find them easily.

*ssm.expand_css_constants *

To recap, the theme designer (dev) must ensure that stylesheets contain
only absolute urls.

The dev could encode those url's directly in the stylesheet, but that would
make the stylesheet limited to a particular environment.  So devs will use
settings, and the css will include @constants referencing those settings.
Like this:

QTreeView::branch:closed:has-children{
image: @tree-image-closed;
}

In short, ssm.expand_css_constants replaces those @constant with absolute
urls.

*A hack that must be generalized*

Now we come to one of Leo's best features/conventions:

*A method's children are its helper methods*

Indeed, this was the first Aha in Leo's history: webs are outlines in
disguise. It was very difficult to see that Knuth's sections were organized
(in his mind only!) as an outline.  Leo makes this explicit.

This matter a great deal!  I *always* forget implementation details, but
the helpers show me where the details lie.

In this case, one of ssm.expand_css_constants's children is
ssm.set_indicator_paths. Here is its docstring:

In the stylesheet, replace (if they exist)::
image: @tree-image-closed
image: @tree-image-open
by::
url(path/closed.png)
url(path/open.png)

path can be relative to ~ or to leo/Icons.

...

And voila, we see:

A. Where absolute urls get created.

B. Why only certain paths work.

C. How this "hacky" method might/must be extended to handle other
@constants.

*Summary*

It's much slower to explain all this than to do it. *Processes are easier
than descriptions*.

I want you to learn the processes involved, not the details.

ssm.set_indicator_paths must look in more places for icons.  One way to
reduce the need for herding cats is to create common utility methods.  I'll
look into this.

Leo's tree-handling code resolves icon boxes completely independently of
stylesheets. It may be that this *other* code needs generalization to
handle theme.  FYI, the code is qt_gui.getImageImageFinder.  I didn't
remember this code, I found it in a recent clone.

HTH.

Edward

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-15 Thread Chris George

After two days of dark tree boxes, the white ones (default Qt) boxes are 
back in Breeze Dark, even with ~/dark.

Chris

On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 5:45:21 AM UTC-7, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 7:34 AM, Chris George  > wrote:
>
>> Then let's get busy.
>>
>> Why don't we start with #808? I have essentially hit the wall with
>> theming until it is resolved.
>>
>
> Ok.  I'll look into this first.  It's more of a bug than a "learning 
> opportunity", but removing roadblocks to learning can't hurt.
>
> At present use relative paths in settings:
>
> @string tree-image-closed = nodes-dark/triangles/closed.png
> @string tree-image-open = nodes-dark/triangles/open.png
>
> Contrary to your statement in #808, the recommended css is:
>
> QTreeView::branch:closed:has-children{
> image: @tree-image-closed;
> }
> QTreeView::branch:open:has-children{
> image: @tree-image-open;
> }
>
> But let's not quibble.  Leo could use a setting that would trace 
> theme-related "stuff".  The first thing I'm going to do now is enable 
> traces in various places. I'll let you know where when I know myself ;-)
>
> Hey, this is kinda fun.  Thinking out loud, knowing that other people are 
> listening.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-15 Thread Edward K. Ream

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 7:34 AM, Chris George  wrote:

> Then let's get busy.
>
> Why don't we start with #808? I have essentially hit the wall with
> theming until it is resolved.
>

Ok.  I'll look into this first.  It's more of a bug than a "learning
opportunity", but removing roadblocks to learning can't hurt.

At present use relative paths in settings:

@string tree-image-closed = nodes-dark/triangles/closed.png
@string tree-image-open = nodes-dark/triangles/open.png

Contrary to your statement in #808, the recommended css is:

QTreeView::branch:closed:has-children{
image: @tree-image-closed;
}
QTreeView::branch:open:has-children{
image: @tree-image-open;
}

But let's not quibble.  Leo could use a setting that would trace
theme-related "stuff".  The first thing I'm going to do now is enable
traces in various places. I'll let you know where when I know myself ;-)

Hey, this is kinda fun.  Thinking out loud, knowing that other people are
listening.

Edward

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-15 Thread Chris George

Then let's get busy.

Why don't we start with #808? I have essentially hit the wall with
theming until it is resolved.

Chris


On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:59 PM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:04 PM, Chris George  wrote:
>>
>> I want to write a plugin.
>>
>> If you're going to have more than one student, may I recommend a
>> creating a Slack workspace?
>
>
> Why not just use github issues with, say, a "student" label? We already have
> "a place for every conversation".
>
> Edward
>
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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread Edward K. Ream

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:04 PM, Chris George  wrote:

> I want to write a plugin.
>
> If you're going to have more than one student, may I recommend a
> creating a Slack workspace?
>

Why not just use github issues with, say, a "student" label? We already
have "a place for every conversation".

Edward

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread drmikecrowe

https://medium.com/@russleyshaw/which-chat-platform-should-i-use-d73f22d558f3

I like Gitter (more topics I personally care about)

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 7:16:55 AM UTC-4, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> Yesterday I had an Aha. It's time to start training Leo devs 
> (developers)!  Leo's present devs are busy doing great work. We can't ask 
> them to do more.
>
> Leo's to-do list 
> 
>  
> has over 150 items. If you want one of those items, please consider adding 
> it yourself, *even if you aren't a programmer.* I'll teach you python and 
> Leo's internals.
>
> Python is easy to learn. After that, becoming acquainted with Leo's code 
> base will be easier than you might think.
>
> *Summary*
>
> If you have ever wanted to be a programmer, now is a great time ;-) I'll 
> be happy to answer *all *your questions.
>
> Training new devs will pay off handsomely (for me) in the long term.
>
> Edward
>
> P. S. From the fascinating 2018 Stack Overflow Developer Survey: 
> 
>
> "For the sixth year in a row, JavaScript is the most commonly used 
> programming language. Python has risen in the ranks, surpassing C# this 
> year, much like it surpassed PHP last year. Python has a solid claim to 
> being the fastest-growing major programming language 
> ."
>
> EKR
>

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread Chris George

Bitrix might be good. They have reviewed well and support 12 users in the 
free version.

https://www.bitrix24.com/features/

Chris

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 3:26:55 PM UTC-7, Offray Vladimir Luna 
Cárdenas wrote:
>
> Hi, 
>
> Maybe Slack clones are better. In the Pharo community, not having access 
> to the community history or resetting it after 10k messages was a real 
> kicker out of Slack. 
>
> Cheers, 
>
> Offray 
>
>
> On 14/03/18 17:04, Chris George wrote: 
> > I want to write a plugin. 
> > 
> > If you're going to have more than one student, may I recommend a 
> > creating a Slack workspace? 
> > 
> > That way you could document the learning as it goes. Questions and 
> > answers are powerful learning tools. Acolytes could learn from each 
> > other's questions as well. :-) 
> > 
> > Chris 
> > 
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Edward K. Ream  > wrote: 
> >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 4:34 PM, jkn  > wrote: 
> >> 
> >>> I'd be happy to look for a to-do item or two and volunteer to have a 
> crack 
> >>> at them, if you like. Would that the the best way to proceed? 
> >> 
> >> Yes.  Pick the items that most interest you. 
> >> 
> >> Edward 
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups 
> >> "leo-editor" group. 
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an 
> >> email to leo-editor+...@googlegroups.com . 
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> . 
> >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. 
> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>
>

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread Chris George

I recommended SLack because we used it in the 2015 federal election to
manage my campaign with excellent results.

Never even got close to the limitations of the free account, but it
certainly assisted us in organizing the volunteers and pushing
information.

A big benefit was its searchability. Things move fast in a campaign
and being able to find the answers quickly was important.

Chris

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 3:26 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Maybe Slack clones are better. In the Pharo community, not having access
> to the community history or resetting it after 10k messages was a real
> kicker out of Slack.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Offray
>
>
> On 14/03/18 17:04, Chris George wrote:
>> I want to write a plugin.
>>
>> If you're going to have more than one student, may I recommend a
>> creating a Slack workspace?
>>
>> That way you could document the learning as it goes. Questions and
>> answers are powerful learning tools. Acolytes could learn from each
>> other's questions as well. :-)
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:
>>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 4:34 PM, jkn  wrote:
>>>
 I'd be happy to look for a to-do item or two and volunteer to have a crack
 at them, if you like. Would that the the best way to proceed?
>>>
>>> Yes.  Pick the items that most interest you.
>>>
>>> Edward
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "leo-editor" group.
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>>> email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>
> --
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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas

Hi,

Maybe Slack clones are better. In the Pharo community, not having access
to the community history or resetting it after 10k messages was a real
kicker out of Slack.

Cheers,

Offray


On 14/03/18 17:04, Chris George wrote:
> I want to write a plugin.
>
> If you're going to have more than one student, may I recommend a
> creating a Slack workspace?
>
> That way you could document the learning as it goes. Questions and
> answers are powerful learning tools. Acolytes could learn from each
> other's questions as well. :-)
>
> Chris
>
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 4:34 PM, jkn  wrote:
>>
>>> I'd be happy to look for a to-do item or two and volunteer to have a crack
>>> at them, if you like. Would that the the best way to proceed?
>>
>> Yes.  Pick the items that most interest you.
>>
>> Edward
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "leo-editor" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread Terry Brown

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 15:04:44 -0700
Chris George  wrote:

> I want to write a plugin.
> 
> If you're going to have more than one student, may I recommend a
> creating a Slack workspace?

+1 I'd like to be more familiar with Slack, have looked at it but not
much more.

Cheers -Terry

> That way you could document the learning as it goes. Questions and
> answers are powerful learning tools. Acolytes could learn from each
> other's questions as well. :-)
> 
> Chris
> 
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Edward K. Ream 
> wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 4:34 PM, jkn  wrote:
> >  
> >> I'd be happy to look for a to-do item or two and volunteer to have
> >> a crack at them, if you like. Would that the the best way to
> >> proceed?  
> >
> >
> > Yes.  Pick the items that most interest you.
> >
> > Edward
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "leo-editor" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> > send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.  
> 

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread Chris George

I want to write a plugin.

If you're going to have more than one student, may I recommend a
creating a Slack workspace?

That way you could document the learning as it goes. Questions and
answers are powerful learning tools. Acolytes could learn from each
other's questions as well. :-)

Chris

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 4:34 PM, jkn  wrote:
>
>> I'd be happy to look for a to-do item or two and volunteer to have a crack
>> at them, if you like. Would that the the best way to proceed?
>
>
> Yes.  Pick the items that most interest you.
>
> Edward
>
> --
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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread Edward K. Ream

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 4:34 PM, jkn  wrote:

I'd be happy to look for a to-do item or two and volunteer to have a crack
> at them, if you like. Would that the the best way to proceed?
>

Yes.  Pick the items that most interest you.

Edward

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread jkn

Hi Edward

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 11:16:55 AM UTC, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> Yesterday I had an Aha. It's time to start training Leo devs 
> (developers)!  Leo's present devs are busy doing great work. We can't ask 
> them to do more.
>
> Leo's to-do list 
> 
>  
> has over 150 items. If you want one of those items, please consider adding 
> it yourself, *even if you aren't a programmer.* I'll teach you python and 
> Leo's internals.
>
> Python is easy to learn. After that, becoming acquainted with Leo's code 
> base will be easier than you might think.
>
> *Summary*
>
> If you have ever wanted to be a programmer, now is a great time ;-) I'll 
> be happy to answer *all *your questions.
>
> Training new devs will pay off handsomely (for me) in the long term.
>
> Edward
>
> P. S. From the fascinating 2018 Stack Overflow Developer Survey: 
> 
>
> "For the sixth year in a row, JavaScript is the most commonly used 
> programming language. Python has risen in the ranks, surpassing C# this 
> year, much like it surpassed PHP last year. Python has a solid claim to 
> being the fastest-growing major programming language 
> ."
>
> EKR
>

I'd be happy to look for a to-do item or two and volunteer to have a crack 
at them, if you like. Would that the the best way to proceed?

Regards
jon N/jkn
 

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread Edward K. Ream

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Matt Wilkie  wrote:

>
> Leo's to-do list
>> 
>> has over 150 items. If you want one of those items, please consider adding
>> it yourself, *even if you aren't a programmer.* I'll teach you python
>> and Leo's internals.
>>
>
> I'm not a programmer, but I've accomplished programming things and even
> contributed something worthwhile to Leo's install experience. Well maybe
> now I could use the "p" word, but that certainly wasn't true when I started
> with Leo! I've written things that do work and some other people have
> re-used some of my stuff. Leo and it's community helped me get here.
>

You may not be a full-time programmer, but you have contributed greatly to
Leo.  So yes, you have earned your diploma :-)

Edward

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread Matt Wilkie



> Leo's to-do list 
> 
>  
> has over 150 items. If you want one of those items, please consider adding 
> it yourself, *even if you aren't a programmer.* I'll teach you python and 
> Leo's internals.
>

I'm not a programmer, but I've accomplished programming things and even 
contributed something worthwhile to Leo's install experience. Well maybe 
now I could use the "p" word, but that certainly wasn't true when I started 
with Leo! I've written things that do work and some other people have 
re-used some of my stuff. Leo and it's community helped me get here.

Python is easy to learn. After that, becoming acquainted with Leo's code 
> base will be easier than you might think.
>

Well, python is easy, but programming itself is still hard! Eminently 
worthwhile though. The satisfactory glow that comes from *finally* 
producing a bit of code that does something useful, however small, even 
minuscule, can last for days. 

matt

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Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

2018-03-14 Thread Edward K. Ream

Yesterday I had an Aha. It's time to start training Leo devs (developers)!  
Leo's present devs are busy doing great work. We can't ask them to do more.

Leo's to-do list 

 
has over 150 items. If you want one of those items, please consider adding 
it yourself, *even if you aren't a programmer.* I'll teach you python and 
Leo's internals.

Python is easy to learn. After that, becoming acquainted with Leo's code 
base will be easier than you might think.

*Summary*

If you have ever wanted to be a programmer, now is a great time ;-) I'll be 
happy to answer *all *your questions.

Training new devs will pay off handsomely (for me) in the long term.

Edward

P. S. From the fascinating 2018 Stack Overflow Developer Survey: 


"For the sixth year in a row, JavaScript is the most commonly used 
programming language. Python has risen in the ranks, surpassing C# this 
year, much like it surpassed PHP last year. Python has a solid claim to 
being the fastest-growing major programming language 
."

EKR

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

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Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

Re: Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

Please consider becoming a Leo dev, even if you aren't a programmer

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