Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2020-09-03
Am 04.09.20 um 20:10 schrieb khagaroth> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:06 PM Jan-Marek Glogowski > mailto:glo...@fbihome.de>> wrote: > >> But coming back to the original bug / suggestion to retire the PNGs: >> *the quality of the SVG renderings of the icons at 100% isn't good*. >> They look "washed out" in comparison with the unscaled, alternative >> PNG icons > > ^^ That's an understatement. SVG icons are currently absolutely > atrocious. The first problem is that LO uses odd icon resolution > (25x25), so the lines are not pixel aligned on export and are > blurred/aliased. I did a quick Bugzilla search, which came up with https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126446, where you also commented. At least my impression is, that the people are much more happy with the scaled SVGs, then with the scaled PNGs in HiDPI setups on Linux and the result is not "atrocious"; but then I don't use Windows and this is just my personal impression, having no background in design whatsoever. So I tested the SVG icons at 100% and the cached PNG version of breeze_svg/sw/res/emptypage_10x14.svg has the size 11x15 - yikes. The SVG starts with: https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2020-09-03
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:06 PM Jan-Marek Glogowski wrote: > But coming back to the original bug / suggestion to retire the PNGs: > *the quality of the SVG renderings of the icons at 100% isn't good*. They > look > "washed out" in comparison with the unscaled, alternative PNG icons > ^^ That's an understatement. SVG icons are currently absolutely atrocious. The first problem is that LO uses odd icon resolution (25x25), so the lines are not pixel aligned on export and are blurred/aliased. The second problem is that with Opengl/Skia enabled, the GPU driver applies some antialiasing/smoothing on top of that and it ends up looking absolutely hideous, at least on latest AMD / Intel drivers. No such problems with the PNG icons or with GDI rendering. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2020-09-03
Am 03.09.20 um 16:53 schrieb Miklos Vajna: >* Design team discussed two-years plan in weekly meeting: a vision > + Retire PNG variants of icons >+ interested in replacing that with SVG >+ what is the goal here? (Kendy) > + problem on hi-res screens: PNG is blurry (Heiko) > + rendering SVG is expensive (Kendy) >+ if you want to have the same perf as PNG, you’ll need a cache >+ you need to build that cache on first start >+ could just generate that at build-time >+ not exicted to generate them on the user’s machine >+ Tomaz says: SVG icons already have a cache (Thorsten) > + switching to SVG won’t buy us anything, it’ll be still blurry >+ don’t like the slow cache building at start (Heiko) > + just the messenger here… >+ SVG has to be designed in a way that is cheap to render (Kendy) > + done with care, in some optimized way > + PNG is just an impl detail; design team does SVG, we use PNG at > runtime (Thorsten) >+ more a dev decision >+ agreed (Kendy) The primary bug is https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115439 I brought this up, because it's a UI problem with many duplicates. The used icons in the LO UI are always (scaled) PNGs of the original icons, which can be PNG or SVG, in any non-100% / 96 DPI setting, cached in the user profile. The discussion was never about rendering runtime SVG icons. And all the points mentioned in the notes about caching are already more-or-less addressed and implemented since quite some time. But currently the user has to manually select an SVG iconset. Per default the user gets scaled PNG icons for HiDPI and indeed the result is blurry / blocky. And - as I understood Tomaz - the complete iOS GUI is rendered via SVGs, so generally our SVG renderer seems fast and correct enough for simple stuff, but he also said there are workaround for bugs, if I understood him correctly. But coming back to the original bug / suggestion to retire the PNGs: the quality of the SVG renderings of the icons at 100% isn't good. They look "washed out" in comparison with the unscaled, alternative PNG icons. I guess the current PNGs are generated by other renderers already from the existing SVGs, but I don't know. In the end people claim this is primary a problem of LO's SVG renderer. So my suggestion was to create a tender to address the most prominent SVG rendering problems in LO, so the PNG icons can be dropped in the optimal case, or the SVG icons can at least become the default. The bug just suggests to always use SVG versions of an iconset, if you must scale the icons. This probably / eventually needs some design people to identify the most prominent problems they see when working on icons, which would need fixing. At least it seemed like some actionable work, which could be done by that team, and also would benefit LO in multiple ways. Hope this makes my proposal a bit more understandable. Jan-Marek P.S. AFAIK the current implementation of the cache isn't aware of the original icon, so it won't update icons on source changes. And FWIW the internet has various blog posts about selecting an SVG iconset in LO, but from my POV this shouldn't be a problem to begin with. Others also suggested to internally replace SVM with SVG, which is out of scope of my proposal, but better SVG support would help there too. And there is even https://github.com/GarkGarcia/icon-pie/issues/14, which suggests to use an external program to render the scaled SVG PNG icons, which is just an other workaround. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
ESC meeting minutes: 2020-09-03
* Present: + Heiko, Stephan, Thorsten, Gabriel, Kendy, Michael W, Caolan, Olivier, Miklos, Sophie, Eike * Completed Action Items: + None * Pending Action Items: + make a decision on what notebookbar variant to promote (Heiko) + see tdf#135501 for details + no decision yet * Release Engineering update (Cloph) + 7.0 status + 7.0.1 was released earlier today + 7.0.2 rc1 in 2 weeks + 6.4 status + 6.4.7 - end of September (week 39) + Remotes + Android viewer + Online * Documentation (Olivier) + New Help + More extended tips into UI (scalc/) (ohallot, cloph) + Extended tips on swriter/ + Helpcontents2 + Updates and fixes (ohallot) + typos (A Gelmini) + Google Seasons of Doc + Started work on Calc function wiki page (R. Ghandi, S. Fanning) + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Calc_Functions/ACOS + setup for Calc E-Learning + Guides + Work in progress + any help for translators to not re-translate extended tips when you move them from help.git to core.git? (Sophie) + if you don’t like them, you can disable them (Olivier) + you can filter them out for translation, if wanted (Cloph) + will improve the content once the move is done (Olivier) + perhaps will put a banner on weblate to avoid double work (Sophie) * UX Update (Heiko) + Bugzilla (topicUI) statistics 248(248) (topicUI) bugs open, 315(315) (needsUXEval) needs to be evaluated by the UXteam + Updates: BZ changes 1 week1 month 3 months 12 months added 30(-2)89(19)111(20)221(18) commented 104(6)461(25) 1082(56) 3821(86) removed 1(1) 1(1) 10(1) 54(1) resolved 5(2) 23(-9)101(-1)386(1) + top 10 contributors: Telesto made 260 changes in 1 month, and 564 changes in 1 year Heiko Tietze made 103 changes in 1 month, and 2063 changes in 1 year Kainz, Andreas made 102 changes in 1 month, and 508 changes in 1 year Dieter Praas made 72 changes in 1 month, and 537 changes in 1 year Foote, V Stuart made 59 changes in 1 month, and 602 changes in 1 year Ilmari Lauhakangas made 48 changes in 1 month, and 220 changes in 1y Roman Kuznetsov made 31 changes in 1 month, and 257 changes in 1 year Thomas Lendo made 27 changes in 1 month, and 163 changes in 1 year Kaganski, Mike made 26 changes in 1 month, and 113 changes in 1 year BogdanB made 22 changes in 1 month, and 91 changes in 1 year * 91 new tickets with needsUXEval since Aug/13 + page-/paragraph style + sidebar redesign + ... * Design team discussed two-years plan in weekly meeting: a vision + Provide unified UI theming appearance for all platforms + Introduce theming as known from iOS + Outsource content and make it available via "tight integration" + Polish Notebookbars, clean-up variants + Retire PNG variants of icons + interested in replacing that with SVG + what is the goal here? (Kendy) + problem on hi-res screens: PNG is blurry (Heiko) + rendering SVG is expensive (Kendy) + if you want to have the same perf as PNG, you’ll need a cache + you need to build that cache on first start + could just generate that at build-time + not exicted to generate them on the user’s machine + Tomaz says: SVG icons alraedy have a cache (Thorsten) + switching to SVG won’t buy us anything, it’ll be still blurry + don’t like the slow cache building at start (Heiko) + just the messenger here… + SVG has to be designed in a way that is cheap to render (Kendy) + done with care, in some optimized way + PNG is just an impl detail; design team does SVG, we use PNG at runtime (Thorsten) + more a dev decision + agreed (Kendy) + SmartArt * Crash testing (Caolan) + 8(+2) import failure, 14(-197) export failures + new build with new fix underway + 0 coverity issues + oss-fuzz 11 timeouts, 3 oom fixed * Crash Reporting (Xisco) + https://crashreport.libreoffice.org/stats/version/6.4.5.2 + (-394) 1814 2208 2552 2315 1761 1162 0 + https://crashreport.libreoffice.org/stats/version/6.4.6.2 + (+874) 874 0 + https://crashreport.libreoffice.org/stats/version/7.0.0.3 + (+2649) 6489 3840 788 0 + 6.4.x crashes look as usual + 7.0.x has lots of backports/fixes, looking forward to see how to changes the numbers * GSoC 2020 (Thorsten/Ilmari) + Projects announced: https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2020/05/05/9769/ + June 1, 2020 - August 24, 2020: Students work on their projects + 6 projects accepted + Students will have a panel: (Th