Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Terrence Enger]

On Wed, 2016-12-21 at 07:08 +0100, "Christoph Schäfer"
 wrote asking for a way to send
failing documents so that they
would be accessible only to
developers and admins.

The QA team consists of whoever cares to show up.  We routinely
do some work on bug reports.  So, this proposal would force this
work onto developers and admins.  I am talking about work like
...

(*) Ensure that the bug has not already been reported.

(*) Ensure that the steps for reproduction are clear and
complete.  Generally, they should be adequate even for
someone who does not usually us the feature in question.

(*) Find at least one other system where the bug is evdent.

(*) Determine whether the bug represents a regression form an
earlier version of LibreOffice.

(*) Determine when a regression entered LibreOffice.

On balance, I view the transfer of work to developers as
undesirable.
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Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Jan Iversen]

> Just to be clear, I'm coming from the graphics design and layout community, 
> and I want to support the development of libraries like libfreehand or 
> libpagemaker. For that purpose I used my contacts to layout and DTP experts 
> and asked for sample files, so I could test the importers with all programmes 
> that use them, but primarily LibreOffice. In other words, I and the friendly 
> people who donated from their backups want to help you to fix YOUR bugs. 

I think a lot of the mail in this thread contain a lot of truth (from all). But 
please everybody truth is relative to the viewer and not universal. If 
Christoph has knowledge of multiple problems and test files to show it, then 
lets find a way to make them available, instead of solving the general problem 
(which is far more difficult as described).


> 
> A suggestion from my side would be to grant DLP hackers "Developer" status on 
> Scribus's bugtracker (bugs.scribus.net ) for DTP 
> and vector formats, so I can upload the test files over there as "Private". 
> As "Developers" they would have access to the test files. The status would 
> only be granted if one of the DLP leads (e.g. Fridrich Štrba or David Tardon) 
> can confirm that the person is indeed an active DLP developer.
Thanks Christoph for suggesting a compromise. 

I think it is a good idea ! and please have each problem added as a BZ issue, 
with some link to the Scribus bug tracker (e.g. id), and a not like “if you 
want to work on this bug, please assign it to yourself, and ping Fridrích / 
David / Christoph  to get access to the test document”.

I hope with that solution everybody is happy, and we can all benefit LO being 
even better than it is.

I just have to comment on one thing. The use of “YOUR” is not correct, we 
(whoever that is) do not own the program, it is OUR bugs, where our means 
everybody using LO.

Lets all have some nice days.

rgds
jan I.

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Re: Aw: Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Thorsten Behrens]

"Christoph Schäfer" wrote:
> Wow, what a genuinely polite reply! Do you behave like this at home
> or at work?
> 
Hi Christoph,

at the very least, your above comment carries quite a bit of what you
were complaining about others. Let's all try to be nice & friendly.

Just to put some perspective to the original request, the LibreOffice
project tried pretty hard, from day one, to avoid creating
barriers. Therefore the default, visceral reaction to any such request to
erect walls will be a 'no' (or a 'no, why?' if you're lucky).

As such, with the responses that you got, you see that you're
challenging a culture here. So even if your request has merit, expect
more work & convincing necessary than a simple email. People are like
that.

> In other words, I and the friendly people who donated from their
> backups want to help you to fix YOUR bugs.
>
This is much appreciated!

> We are no beggars who want you to solve our non-existing problems
> but do like what DLP/LibreOffice is doing and want to support
> it. Most people who sent me their test files probably don't use
> LibreOffice (yet), and if they do, they certainly don't need its
> graphics/DTP import filters. They do know, however, that other
> projects like Inkscape and Scribus use them.
>
Ok, point taken.

> A suggestion from my side would be to grant DLP hackers "Developer"
> status on Scribus's bugtracker (bugs.scribus.net) for DTP and vector
> formats, so I can upload the test files over there as "Private". As
> "Developers" they would have access to the test files. The status
> would only be granted if one of the DLP leads (e.g. Fridrich Štrba
> or David Tardon) can confirm that the person is indeed an active DLP
> developer.
>
That to me sounds like a nice, quick, no-brainer solution to the
problem. :)

Cheers,

-- Thorsten


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Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Norbert Thiebaud]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 4:12 AM, Michael Meeks
 wrote:
>
>> You cannot expect volunteers to go through hoops to give you free
>> support because you are not willing to do your part.
>
> I really don't believe that is a fair characterization of Christoph's
> suggestion =)

s/you/one/

the 'you' there was used in a generic sens not a particular.. I should
have used the undefined pronoun 'one'

Norbert
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Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[julien2412]

Michael Meeks-5 wrote
> ...
>   From the first days I worked on gnumeric, many of our best test
> documents were sent to the developers, and maintained in a semi-private
> collection that we used like our crash-testing suite for regression
> testing...

If someone wants to start contributing, he'll begin to git clone LO repo so
he'll automatically retrieve all test documents (and that's what we want,
don't we?).
If we'd begin to put specific document in a kind of "semi-private" (which
can be accessed by some TBs/Jenkins and core dev/QA people only) repo, in
case a commit breaks something concerning a document from this repo, it'll
be more difficult to debug this for people who don't have access to this
repo.
Given the fact that it's not so often to see all TBs green or Jenkins review
OK, it'd be even more difficult to achieve this goal.

But above all, putting in place a system to manage private files is time
consuming + a cost (in terms of money this time). Accepting money for this
service wouldn't be a solution since it would remove TDF's independance.

Julien



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Aw: Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Christoph Schäfer]

>  wrote:
> > Dear LibreOffice developers,
> >
> >
> > I'd be grateful if you could add an option to your bugtracker to hide bug 
> > reports and/or sample files from public view, i.e., add a "Private" option, 
> > so that only developers and admins can see them.
> 
> The whole world is a potential 'developper' in an open source project.
> That is the whole point.
> 
> If a customer want secrecy and NDAs and the like.. they need to use a
> consulting company to solve their bug. This is the only way they can
> maintain any sort of 'secrecy' of their test documents.
> 
> The only viable alternative, as mentioned  elsewhere in this thread,
> is to sanitize the documents to remove 'sensitive' stuff.
> You cannot expect volunteers to go through hoops to give you free
> support because you are not willing to do your part.
> 
> Norbert
> 

Wow, what a genuinely polite reply! Do you behave like this at home or at work?


Just to be clear, I'm coming from the graphics design and layout community, and 
I want to support the development of libraries like libfreehand or 
libpagemaker. For that purpose I used my contacts to layout and DTP experts and 
asked for sample files, so I could test the importers with all programmes that 
use them, but primarily LibreOffice. In other words, I and the friendly people 
who donated from their backups want to help you to fix YOUR bugs. 


We are no beggars who want you to solve our non-existing problems but do like 
what DLP/LibreOffice is doing and want to support it. Most people who sent me 
their test files probably don't use LibreOffice (yet), and if they do, they 
certainly don't need its graphics/DTP import filters. They do know, however, 
that other projects like Inkscape and Scribus use them.


Since we're talking about graphics design, it's not possible to "sanitise" the 
files for several reasons. First of all, these files have been created as "work 
for hire" and they're design/layout files, so even removing or replacing text 
doesn't change the design or layout as a whole, for which someone has paid a 
few quid. Second, these files have been created with programmes that the 
creators no longer use or no longer have access to. The same goes for operating 
systems like Mac OS 8 or OS/2, and back in the days it could make a huge 
difference whether a file had been created on a Mac or a Windows / OS/2 
platform. 


Also note that the complexity of real-world vector design and DTP files is an 
order of magnitude higher than that of "office" files or bitmap graphics.


I already mentioned that I've been told by an DLP developer that it's not 
enough to send them files directly, because as far they are concerned, bugs 
only exist if there is a bug report. So here we are, on the one hand a growing 
collection of test files that might help to improve the DLP libraries, 
contributed by people who want to support your project, but that also need to 
be treated confidentially. On the other hand a vicious circle of DLP insisting 
on bug reports but the impossibility to upload the respective test files, since 
there is no "Private" option in the bugtracker available.


If someone has an idea how to solve this issue, I'd be glad to hear from the 
community (and I don't mean (c)rude fellows like you, Norbert). 


A suggestion from my side would be to grant DLP hackers "Developer" status on 
Scribus's bugtracker (bugs.scribus.net) for DTP and vector formats, so I can 
upload the test files over there as "Private". As "Developers" they would have 
access to the test files. The status would only be granted if one of the DLP 
leads (e.g. Fridrich Štrba or David Tardon) can confirm that the person is 
indeed an active DLP developer.



Christoph
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Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Mike,

On 22/12/16 10:38, Kaganski Mike wrote:
> I want to mention here, to provide a PoV for ESC, the following:
> there is no technical problem in a "Private" flag;

Sure - so; of course there are quite possibly data protection concerns
about non-public data, and that is a pain, and involves some due
diligence - although we already store some private data such as members'
details.

Of course we'd want to communicate really clearly what we meant by such
a setting, that is if we even decide to use Bugzilla for this, or if it
is worth doing this; I look forward to hearing from the DLP people of
course on that topic.

Thanks for raising,

Michael.

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Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Kaganski Mike]

On 12/22/2016 1:12 PM, Michael Meeks wrote:

I agree there are problems trying to work out who should be able to see
them; but we have some good lists already - eg. those with commit access
are people we trust - I don't think this is an insuperable problem.

I think there is also a good sized grey area between 'published on the
web', and 'made available to a small group of dedicated and trusted
individuals'.


...

From the first days I worked on gnumeric, many of our best test
documents were sent to the developers, and maintained in a semi-private
collection that we used like our crash-testing suite for regression
testing. IMHO it's a reasonable & normal request to have a TDF
controlled mechanism for building such a thing - but lets put this on
the ESC agenda to discuss it there.

I want to mention here, to provide a PoV for ESC, the following:
there is no technical problem in a "Private" flag; but that flag is public 
legally-binding promise.
So, TDF should consider:
* what are legal consequences of breaking that promise;
* what fiscal consequences can follow from that, and how should TDF provide for 
that in budget;
* what are technical means of guaranteeing that promise (how can we ensure that 
people won't break it, and that data is stored securely);
* what are legal means of that guarantee (how can we enforce those people to do 
that by law, and who will be the lawyer on TDF side);
* how can we ensure required budget for required infrastructure (with 
guaranteed constant funding);
* and can't be there a possibility that if we will have a dedicated source of 
funding for that, that will endanger the non-profit status of TDF?

I definitely believe that a L3 support is best for that.

--
Best regards,
Mike Kaganski
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Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Michael Meeks]

Hi guys,

On 21/12/16 17:17, Norbert Thiebaud wrote:
>> I'd be grateful if you could add an option to your bugtracker to hide
>> bug reports and/or sample files from public view, i.e., add a "Private"
>> option, so that only developers and admins can see them.
> 
> The whole world is a potential 'developer' in an open source project.
> That is the whole point.

I agree there are problems trying to work out who should be able to see
them; but we have some good lists already - eg. those with commit access
are people we trust - I don't think this is an insuperable problem.

I think there is also a good sized grey area between 'published on the
web', and 'made available to a small group of dedicated and trusted
individuals'.

> The only viable alternative, as mentioned  elsewhere in this thread,
> is to sanitize the documents to remove 'sensitive' stuff.

Completely agreed that we should not be encouraging private attachments
unless it is absolutely necessary; I think it should be specific to
legacy documents. Unfortunately, for these, which is what DLP is all
about, it is probably not feasible to install eg. this set of software:

https://sourceforge.net/p/libmwaw/wiki/Home/

And get it running in order to reduce older versions of file formats to
minimal documents (though that is of course best practice for newer
formats). It is on the other hand probably feasible to have a grab-bag
collection of old, legacy documents somewhere - which has a low risk of
anything confidential being in them (ie. ~15 years old documents ;-)
that is still useful.

From the first days I worked on gnumeric, many of our best test
documents were sent to the developers, and maintained in a semi-private
collection that we used like our crash-testing suite for regression
testing. IMHO it's a reasonable & normal request to have a TDF
controlled mechanism for building such a thing - but lets put this on
the ESC agenda to discuss it there.

> You cannot expect volunteers to go through hoops to give you free
> support because you are not willing to do your part.

I really don't believe that is a fair characterization of Christoph's
suggestion =)

ATB,

Michael.

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Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[toki]

On 12/21/2016 06:08 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:

> I'd be grateful if you could add an option to your bugtracker to hide bug 
> reports and/or sample files from public view, 

That is not going to happen. For starters any Tom, Dick, or Harry that
wants to be a LibO developer can be. (^1)

>bugs and issues don't exist unless they show up in the bugtracker.
>The advantage of those files is that they have been created by real
graphics professionals for real customers and are far more valuable than
simple unit tests.

Option # 1 is to retain a Tier 3 support firm, to fix those bugs, and
send them upstream.
https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/professional-support/ is a good
starting point, for finding such a firm.

Option # 2 is to create similar content using the Lorem Ipsum
equivalent, and upload that along with your bug report.

Option # 3 is to file the bug report, with precise, exact, intricate
step by step details on how to reproduce the bug.

^1: More precisely, can contribute code.  Whether or not their code is
included in the software a slightly different issue.

jonathon
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Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Norbert Thiebaud]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 12:08 AM, "Christoph Schäfer"
 wrote:
> Dear LibreOffice developers,
>
>
> I'd be grateful if you could add an option to your bugtracker to hide bug 
> reports and/or sample files from public view, i.e., add a "Private" option, 
> so that only developers and admins can see them.

The whole world is a potential 'developper' in an open source project.
That is the whole point.

If a customer want secrecy and NDAs and the like.. they need to use a
consulting company to solve their bug. This is the only way they can
maintain any sort of 'secrecy' of their test documents.

The only viable alternative, as mentioned  elsewhere in this thread,
is to sanitize the documents to remove 'sensitive' stuff.
You cannot expect volunteers to go through hoops to give you free
support because you are not willing to do your part.

Norbert
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Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Jan Iversen]

> 
> Who will be those who will be allowed to see those "Private" bugs? Will there 
> be some criteria to be met? Some NDAs? Isn't that possible to just rework the 
> documents to strip sensitive/copyrighted info?

It is a very delicate theme, especially since most of our developers are 
“public”. Technically it could be possible (as far as I know) to restrict 
the/those who assigns it, but we cannot limit who assigns, nor ask those people 
to sign any form of NDA. So anybody interested in reading the documents would 
simply assign it and view it.

A rework of the document would be the best option.

rgds
jan I.

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Re: Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Kaganski Mike]

On 12/21/2016 9:08 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:

I'd be grateful if you could add an option to your bugtracker to hide bug 
reports and/or sample files from public view, i.e., add a "Private" option, so 
that only developers and admins can see them.


The reason for my request is that I have many sample files for the DLP project, 
created by third parties, that show enormous deficiencies in these import 
libraries. I've sent some of them to the developers, but I've been told that, 
as far DLP is concerned, bugs and issues don't exist unless they show up in the 
bugtracker. The advantage of those files is that they have been created by real 
graphics professionals for real customers and are far more valuable than simple 
unit tests. Unfortunately I cannot file bug reports regarding the test files, 
because there is no "Private" option for files that require confidentiality.


The Scribus project is using Mantis as a BT, and we have been successful in 
receiving many real-world test files that helped us fixing bugs with the 
"Private" option.


Maybe you could enable this option in the LibreOffice bugtracker, too, because 
it would definitely help to improve the DLP libraries.


Who will be those who will be allowed to see those "Private" bugs? Will there 
be some criteria to be met? Some NDAs? Isn't that possible to just rework the 
documents to strip sensitive/copyrighted info?

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Please add an option to set bug reports to "Private"

[Christoph Schäfer]

Dear LibreOffice developers,


I'd be grateful if you could add an option to your bugtracker to hide bug 
reports and/or sample files from public view, i.e., add a "Private" option, so 
that only developers and admins can see them.


The reason for my request is that I have many sample files for the DLP project, 
created by third parties, that show enormous deficiencies in these import 
libraries. I've sent some of them to the developers, but I've been told that, 
as far DLP is concerned, bugs and issues don't exist unless they show up in the 
bugtracker. The advantage of those files is that they have been created by real 
graphics professionals for real customers and are far more valuable than simple 
unit tests. Unfortunately I cannot file bug reports regarding the test files, 
because there is no "Private" option for files that require confidentiality.


The Scribus project is using Mantis as a BT, and we have been successful in 
receiving many real-world test files that helped us fixing bugs with the 
"Private" option.


Maybe you could enable this option in the LibreOffice bugtracker, too, because 
it would definitely help to improve the DLP libraries.


Thanks,
Christoph
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