RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
the short answer of all of the time you spent writing on this subject..would be to tell me to build libreoffice in debug mode, verbose, then the full instructions for building cppunit tests will be the in the output file. And that I would then find how a cppunit tests sets up an env variables. g -Original Message- From: LibreOffice [mailto:libreoffice-boun...@lists.freedesktop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Meeks Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2014 9:41 AM To: nicholas ferguson Cc: 'libreoffice-dev'; 'jonathon' Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component On Wed, 2014-10-01 at 09:00 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: [nicholas ferguson] What I do understand is that Libreoffice had an internal architecture change after 4.0 To prove this worked, there must have been a ton of samples coded up ? Otherwise your clients would have complained and dropped it. It seems as if you're laboring under the illusion that this use-case: of simply dynamically linking to LibreOffice and re-using it is one that used to just work and then it broke in 4.0. That's not the case. Before LibreOfficeKit - I'm not aware of anyone trying to make it easy to link the LibreOffice functionality into a binary and use it externally; so quite the converse - the situation is getting better here. Then again there are so many ways to re-use LibreOffice, it's not entirely which should be used. eg. the COM - UNO bridge exposes a lot of our APIs via UNO and hence COM. Failing that, you can use binary UNO to talk down a socket to a running LibreOffice directly using our own custom protocol; there are plenty of examples of that around, the smoketest code does it - and you can do that trivially via python. where are those samples? They should be loaded up into github as samples used to test the new architecture. Perhaps you're confused. There was no major new architecture of anything much at the 4.0 point that I recall (or was that the new calc core I forget). We are constantly improving almost everything, almost all the time, and in parallel. Our transition to the new gnumake build system which took a load of releases to complete was more or less done then (IIRC) - but ... where is the major architectural change that impacts any of this re-use ? And if you tell me they are in cppunittests... only... and no one coded up a remote app that talked to libreoffice.. really? There are lots of remote apps that talk to libreoffice. But that's not what I heard you asking for - you're asking for an in-process app that links to LibreOffice - and lets you use internal C++ APIs - right ? All the best, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
Hi Nicholas, On Thu, 2014-10-02 at 08:10 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: the short answer of all of the time you spent writing on this subject..would be to tell me to build libreoffice in debug mode, verbose, then the full instructions for building cppunit tests will be the in the output file. And that I would then find how a cppunit tests sets up an env variables. Well - I'm glad you're more optimistic that you have an answer here. I'm not sure I follow the above paragraph though ;-) JFYI - we build and run our unit tests - many of them during the compile process whether you have debug enabled or not. So no need to do any custom build for that, if you have a completed build - you've already run a ton of unit tests while it compiled. As I mentioned, getting bootstrapping right is/was more than environment variables (though there are several of them you can find in the makefile if you $ git grep -5 gb_CppunitTest__make_args ). Also, in general, if you want a cut-down set of functionality to do just calc stuff; you can delete a good number of the DLLs in the instdir/program - but I'd be inclined to drop the code you deliver in that directory too [ and just take some subset of the instdir/ and whack it in your deliverable along with suitable license texts etc. ]. On Thu, 2014-10-02 at 08:10 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: That is not a solution for 2014. In the news you can read about groups of people grabbing a ton of info from governments, companies...illegally through some transport/internet protocols. Its unclear to me that virus checkers will significantly help with this problem. Worth reading: http://www.neowin.net/news/antivirus-software-is-dead-and-over-55-of-attacks-go-unnoticed-says-security-expert-at-symantec Against a sophisticated assailant, if you're using Windows - almost certainly you're doomed anyway. So major companies have strict rules that even a developer cannot touch their anti-virus settings. Or if they try... they get dismissed. So your solution prevents that type of developer from working with LibreOffice. You're right; and (as I say) if you want to invest your time into trying to solve that problem somehow - you are very much more than welcome. I'd view any attempt by myself or others to spend resource like water (this is a huge task) to try to solve the internal corporate policy failures of other companies as a mis-investment personally: they can just fix their policy, or adapt it for VM's or something [ is there really a company that doesn't let you control your own VM settings ? ]. However if you want to do that - no-one is stopping you, quite the opposite: I'd encourage you to send patches for discussion. I'd start though by at least warning of the problem which is the 80% win for 0.01% of the effort =) that's why I filed this easy hack: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84553 ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 5:50 PM, nicholas ferguson nicholasfergu...@wingarch.com wrote: I think that is a bad idea. A good idea is to turn on anti virus where work is done. I personally try to stay away from Windows, but I understand that it's important for us to give Windows users a choice of office suite. If I do have to work on Windows, then yes, anti-virus software can be a useful tool. you can't tell developers to turn off their anti virus when working on windows. That’s crazy talk I don't think anyone thinks it's a *feature* if Norton Antivirus screws-up LibreOffice builds, but by documenting the problem, we're saving other people the time and pain of running into the same problem. If you think that LibreOffice should build under Norton Antivirus on Windows, feel free to file a bug about it: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=LibreOfficebug_status=UNCONFIRMED Best, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 5:19 PM, nicholas ferguson nicholasfergu...@wingarch.com wrote: Wow. So I did a forensic on the env. And I discovered that Norton Antivirus was isolating state files and some executables being built by the LibreOffice build system. So I asked Tor..hey..what brand of antivirus do you use? I'll switch over. He had turned his off too. So that alone took two to three weeks. I even had to resort to buying a new machine...devoted to libreoffice. $300 machine. Trying to solve why my builds were failing on windows. It sounds like antivirus software may cause problems with Windows builds. That's useful information. Could you please document the specifics on the wiki? https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/BuildingOnWindows#Failures Right now, I don't see anything mentioning anti, virus, symantec, or norton on that page, so it's quite possible that the next person is going to run into the same problems you did. Let's nip that one problem in the bud. Thanks, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
[nicholas ferguson] What I do understand is that Libreoffice had an internal architecture change after 4.0 To prove this worked, there must have been a ton of samples coded up? Otherwise your clients would have complained and dropped it. where are those samples? They should be loaded up into github as samples used to test the new architecture. And if you tell me they are in cppunittests... only... and no one coded up a remote app that talked to libreoffice.. really? ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 09:00:44AM -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: [nicholas ferguson] What I do understand is that Libreoffice had an internal architecture change after 4.0 No, it had not. Where did you find that information? D. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 09:00:44AM -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: [nicholas ferguson] What I do understand is that Libreoffice had an internal architecture change after 4.0 No, it had not. Where did you find that information? [nicholas ferguson] I have to go someplace for a meeting. I will answer you in about six hours. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
but what are you referring to in your post? I don't see top post or bottom post for your rant. So I guess you did 'heresy' post. -Original Message- From: Christian Lohmaier [mailto:lohma...@googlemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2014 7:28 AM To: nicholas ferguson Cc: Robinson Tryon; Michael Meeks; libreoffice-dev; jonathon Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component Hi Nicholas, your mail client's quoting sucks... And while you already wrote that in business text above with fullquote below is common - the reason for that is that it goes to different people that didn't hear about the exchange before. On a mailinglist it is different, everyone got the older messages. From my experience it has proven again and again that people who fullquote and write above are those who don't take their time to actually read the replies/don't try to understand what was written. If you cannot spend 30 seconds to clean up your post, why should anyone spend a couple of minutes with a reply? You cannot teach something to someone who is unwilling to read/learn, On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 11:50 PM, nicholas ferguson nicholasfergu...@wingarch.com wrote: [...] -Original Message- From: Robinson Tryon [mailto:bishop.robin...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:48 PM To: nicholas ferguson Cc: Michael Meeks; libreoffice-dev; jonathon Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major componen [...] It sounds like antivirus software may cause problems with Windows builds. That's useful information. Could you please document the specifics on the wiki? https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/BuildingOnWindows#Fail ures https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Windows_Build_Dependencies#BitDefender_.2F_other_Anti-Virus_.2F_security_tools_breaking_the_build ciao Christian ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
Hi Nicholas, your mail client's quoting sucks... And while you already wrote that in business text above with fullquote below is common - the reason for that is that it goes to different people that didn't hear about the exchange before. On a mailinglist it is different, everyone got the older messages. From my experience it has proven again and again that people who fullquote and write above are those who don't take their time to actually read the replies/don't try to understand what was written. If you cannot spend 30 seconds to clean up your post, why should anyone spend a couple of minutes with a reply? You cannot teach something to someone who is unwilling to read/learn, On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 11:50 PM, nicholas ferguson nicholasfergu...@wingarch.com wrote: [...] -Original Message- From: Robinson Tryon [mailto:bishop.robin...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:48 PM To: nicholas ferguson Cc: Michael Meeks; libreoffice-dev; jonathon Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major componen [...] It sounds like antivirus software may cause problems with Windows builds. That's useful information. Could you please document the specifics on the wiki? https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/BuildingOnWindows#Failures https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Windows_Build_Dependencies#BitDefender_.2F_other_Anti-Virus_.2F_security_tools_breaking_the_build ciao Christian ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On Wed, 2014-10-01 at 09:00 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: [nicholas ferguson] What I do understand is that Libreoffice had an internal architecture change after 4.0 To prove this worked, there must have been a ton of samples coded up ? Otherwise your clients would have complained and dropped it. It seems as if you're laboring under the illusion that this use-case: of simply dynamically linking to LibreOffice and re-using it is one that used to just work and then it broke in 4.0. That's not the case. Before LibreOfficeKit - I'm not aware of anyone trying to make it easy to link the LibreOffice functionality into a binary and use it externally; so quite the converse - the situation is getting better here. Then again there are so many ways to re-use LibreOffice, it's not entirely which should be used. eg. the COM - UNO bridge exposes a lot of our APIs via UNO and hence COM. Failing that, you can use binary UNO to talk down a socket to a running LibreOffice directly using our own custom protocol; there are plenty of examples of that around, the smoketest code does it - and you can do that trivially via python. where are those samples? They should be loaded up into github as samples used to test the new architecture. Perhaps you're confused. There was no major new architecture of anything much at the 4.0 point that I recall (or was that the new calc core I forget). We are constantly improving almost everything, almost all the time, and in parallel. Our transition to the new gnumake build system which took a load of releases to complete was more or less done then (IIRC) - but ... where is the major architectural change that impacts any of this re-use ? And if you tell me they are in cppunittests... only... and no one coded up a remote app that talked to libreoffice.. really? There are lots of remote apps that talk to libreoffice. But that's not what I heard you asking for - you're asking for an in-process app that links to LibreOffice - and lets you use internal C++ APIs - right ? All the best, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 09:02 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: My question... How do I turn these files into a console app, where filters_test.cxx would have a point of entry, a main function. Suffice it to say that bootstrapping UNO and subsetting LibreOffice to the point that it does that is truly a difficult task; and (FWIW) I think building LibreOffice on Windows is a reasonably easy task ;-) When I try that..my console app gets hits with a series of aborts, undefined function ErrInfo.IsA... and does not result in a useabble app. I would be surprised if people are going to invest lots of time in remote debugging your bootstrapping issues here =) Please try using LibreOfficeKit - that should be reasonably trivial with a recent master Windows install and the headers copy/pasted from include/LibreOfficeKit. If you pass the path of your install into that, it should do all that bootstrapping logic for you. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 09:02 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: My question... How do I turn these files into a console app, where filters_test.cxx would have a point of entry, a main function. I would be surprised if people are going to invest lots of time in remote debugging your bootstrapping issues here =) I am not asking for remote debugging. Where did I ask for remote debugging? Or where did I ask for anyone to invest time? My question is: What are the steps to turn a unit test, such as filters_test.cxx into an executable that has a point of entry main. has anyone done that in the libreoffice community. and if so...can you send me details on how to do it ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 09:31 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 09:02 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: My question... How do I turn these files into a console app, where filters_test.cxx would have a point of entry, a main function. ... I would be surprised if people are going to invest lots of time in remote debugging your bootstrapping issues here =) I am not asking for remote debugging. Where did I ask for remote debugging? Or where did I ask for anyone to invest time ? Questions on the mailing list take time to answer =) That process is hard to automate. To get what you want: My question is: What are the steps to turn a unit test, such as filters_test.cxx into an executable that has a point of entry main. you will need to solve a truck-load of bootstrapping issues - ie. exactly what I wrote above. ie. there is a big chunk of creaking infrastructure necessary to get things working inside LibreOffice. It is extremely unpleasant to debug, and you will hit a lot of corner-cases of no interest to ~anyone. OTOH it is getting quite a bit better over time possibly you will be lucky. has anyone done that in the libreoffice community. and if so...can you send me details on how to do it You might think that an easy approach to start here is to copy/paste the desktop/source/lib/init.cxx code that does this - but (almost certainly) you'd be fooling yourself. The LibreOffice bootstrap code magically 'knows' where your DLL is, and (unless your DLL is in instdir/program/) - this will almost certainly just get confused. Then again, it -might- be an interesting place to start. But - wait, if you do start - you will immediate hit a problem. This problem is known as a bootstrapping problem - getting LibreOffice infrastructure 'up' to the point that you can eg. read files (via our VFS, activate components like Calc etc.). It is exactly these corner case bootstrapping problems that (to re-iterate) are unlikely to be interesting to anyone else or possible to remotely debug. By remote debugging - I mean iteratively helping you to fix and/or workaround problems in your code - using E-mail as a transport. I hope that is clear. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 09:31 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 09:02 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: My question... How do I transform these unit test files into a console app, where for example filters_test.cxx would have a point of entry, a main function. Has someone done this? Can they send me a sample or instructions. ... you will need to solve a truck-load of bootstrapping issues - [nicholas ferguson] Wow. So in the past seven years, not a single successful attempt at transforming a unit test.. and spinning it off into a separate executable...a unit test like filters_test.cxx Hard to believe These unit tests have so much functionality exposed... some hacker would seem to be naturally attracted to transform them into an independent executable. Nick ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
Hi Nicholas, On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 13:43 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: you will need to solve a truck-load of bootstrapping issues Wow. So in the past seven years, not a single successful attempt There are several successful attempts. It is certainly not impossible to do this. Those attempts have however been done by people skilled and experienced in the art of wrestling the LibreOffice octopus - I've personally broken the back of a couple of them. My concern here is not feasibility in the abstract, only the danger of yet more noisy and time-consuming remote debugging by mailing-list to no useful purpose - ie. ending up with something that is not contributed back. at transforming a unit test.. and spinning it off into a separate executable...a unit test like filters_test.cxx Sure - those unit tests run under cppunittester - a separate executable; as you can see if you read the make output and/or read the Makefiles ;-) Separately, if you use LibreOfficeKit (under Linux) you can write your own separate executable (eg. gtktiledviewer) really extremely easily - though you are limited by the currently exposed API there; failing that you can link the code into an Android or iOS binary for yet another incarnation. All of it is do-able (with some hard work). Hard to believe These unit tests have so much functionality exposed... some hacker would seem to be naturally attracted to transform them into an independent executable. They are already executed as shared libraries loaded into a separate executable post compilation. That however happens inside the warm, nurturing, and rather painfully constructed context of a live LibreOffice build tree. But of course - as with -any- community / code problem - you are by far more than welcome to contribute to fixing the situation and meeting your own need. Indeed, I encourage you to get stuck into fixing whatever perceived gaps there are, all of us are responsible for improving things here as their means allow :-) I look forward to your patches. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
I didn't understand your answer. I think you said you would not give me the samples of turning a cppunit test into a standalone executable ..because you find me unskilled and I would then ask too many questions Is it your english? And that first you want to see some contributions from me, to the LibreOffice code base patches... If I missunderstood your things... can you then tar up an example and send it to me. nick -Original Message- From: LibreOffice [mailto:libreoffice-boun...@lists.freedesktop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Meeks Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 2:54 PM To: nicholas ferguson Cc: 'libreoffice-dev'; 'Tor Lillqvist' Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component Hi Nicholas, On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 13:43 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: you will need to solve a truck-load of bootstrapping issues Wow. So in the past seven years, not a single successful attempt There are several successful attempts. It is certainly not impossible to do this. Those attempts have however been done by people skilled and experienced in the art of wrestling the LibreOffice octopus - I've personally broken the back of a couple of them. My concern here is not feasibility in the abstract, only the danger of yet more noisy and time-consuming remote debugging by mailing-list to no useful purpose - ie. ending up with something that is not contributed back. at transforming a unit test.. and spinning it off into a separate executable...a unit test like filters_test.cxx Sure - those unit tests run under cppunittester - a separate executable; as you can see if you read the make output and/or read the Makefiles ;-) Separately, if you use LibreOfficeKit (under Linux) you can write your own separate executable (eg. gtktiledviewer) really extremely easily - though you are limited by the currently exposed API there; failing that you can link the code into an Android or iOS binary for yet another incarnation. All of it is do-able (with some hard work). Hard to believe These unit tests have so much functionality exposed... some hacker would seem to be naturally attracted to transform them into an independent executable. They are already executed as shared libraries loaded into a separate executable post compilation. That however happens inside the warm, nurturing, and rather painfully constructed context of a live LibreOffice build tree. But of course - as with -any- community / code problem - you are by far more than welcome to contribute to fixing the situation and meeting your own need. Indeed, I encourage you to get stuck into fixing whatever perceived gaps there are, all of us are responsible for improving things here as their means allow :-) I look forward to your patches. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On 30/09/14 19:57, nicholas ferguson wrote: I didn't understand your answer. I think you said you would not give me the samples of turning a cppunit test into a standalone executable ..because you find me unskilled and I would then ask too many questions Is it your english? No. It's the way we do it in the Open Source world. You are expected to scratch your own itches, not expect someone else to do it for you. You haven't made a very good impression here. Okay, so you don't understand the culture, as you point out there may be some language issues with people (though not Michael, he speaks English - that is, REAL English :-) And that first you want to see some contributions from me, to the LibreOffice code base patches... Which is what is expected of EVERYONE - you're no different. Or some other contribution. You're coming over as very demanding, wondering why nobody else has tried to do the same as you, and expecting them to drop what they're doing and help you. Except they're not doing it, because they see no value in doing it! And why should they waste their valuable time helping someone else, unless they get a kick out of the sheer act of helping? (Most of us, we're NOT paid ...) If I missunderstood your things... can you then tar up an example and send it to me. git pull is your friend. :-) You're coming over as a typical American - barging into someone else's community, expecting them to change everything (that works fine for them) just to suit you, and then wondering why nobody likes you. I notice Michael is pretty much the only person in your email threads now (and I strongly suspect he is PAID to be nice to everyone). The problem is, as has been pointed out, you are working on a very thorny issue - build systems. On a system that very few developers use (Windows). And one that a lot of developers despise and don't want to touch! A lot of your emails have been right over my head, for one. If anyone is going to help you, it will take a lot of effort for them to get up to speed on what you're trying to do. And those people (like Michael) who are being paid to work on LibreOffice are few in number, and have a lot of more serious priorities. I don't want to say you're on your own, but the reality is that most people here don't see what you're doing as either important, or of interest to them. Which means you aren't going to get much help (not because people don't want to, but because they don't understand what - or why - you are trying to achieve). And by coming over as demanding, you just guarantee that the people who *could* help, will likely tune you out. Sorry, it's just the way things work :-( Cheers, Wol nick -Original Message- From: LibreOffice [mailto:libreoffice-boun...@lists.freedesktop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Meeks Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 2:54 PM To: nicholas ferguson Cc: 'libreoffice-dev'; 'Tor Lillqvist' Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component Hi Nicholas, On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 13:43 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: you will need to solve a truck-load of bootstrapping issues Wow. So in the past seven years, not a single successful attempt There are several successful attempts. It is certainly not impossible to do this. Those attempts have however been done by people skilled and experienced in the art of wrestling the LibreOffice octopus - I've personally broken the back of a couple of them. My concern here is not feasibility in the abstract, only the danger of yet more noisy and time-consuming remote debugging by mailing-list to no useful purpose - ie. ending up with something that is not contributed back. at transforming a unit test.. and spinning it off into a separate executable...a unit test like filters_test.cxx Sure - those unit tests run under cppunittester - a separate executable; as you can see if you read the make output and/or read the Makefiles ;-) Separately, if you use LibreOfficeKit (under Linux) you can write your own separate executable (eg. gtktiledviewer) really extremely easily - though you are limited by the currently exposed API there; failing that you can link the code into an Android or iOS binary for yet another incarnation. All of it is do-able (with some hard work). Hard to believe These unit tests have so much functionality exposed... some hacker would seem to be naturally attracted to transform them into an independent executable. They are already executed as shared libraries loaded into a separate executable post compilation. That however happens inside the warm, nurturing, and rather painfully constructed context of a live LibreOffice build tree. But of course - as with -any- community / code problem - you are by far more than welcome to contribute to fixing the situation and meeting your own need. Indeed, I encourage you to get stuck into fixing whatever perceived gaps
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
You missunderstand the english of a question. If in english someone says, I am having problems transforming a cppunit test into a standalone console application. Has anyone done that? And if they have, can they send me a sample or instructions. Some of you are reading this...as oh...someone does not know how to transform a cppunit test into a standalone console application. Gosh...do I have the time to do this work, on their behalf, and send that person my results...Let me check my schedule. Gosh, no..I don't have the time...so I will have to tell that person..that really...you have to do this on your own...I cannot help you. But the question is not asking you to do any work.. The question is asking something like... have you downloaded libreoffice source files..? Where do I go to download? if you have the time and inclination you send a url. That's it. That's the result of the question. You are not being asked to download the files for me..and then email it to me. Then Michael writes...Of course I have some...but I don't send them to you, because you will then ask me too many questions... So only a few members of your community have difficulties with english. -Original Message- From: LibreOffice [mailto:libreoffice-boun...@lists.freedesktop.org] On Behalf Of Wols Lists Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 3:38 PM To: libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component On 30/09/14 19:57, nicholas ferguson wrote: I didn't understand your answer. I think you said you would not give me the samples of turning a cppunit test into a standalone executable ..because you find me unskilled and I would then ask too many questions Is it your english? No. It's the way we do it in the Open Source world. You are expected to scratch your own itches, not expect someone else to do it for you. You haven't made a very good impression here. Okay, so you don't understand the culture, as you point out there may be some language issues with people (though not Michael, he speaks English - that is, REAL English :-) And that first you want to see some contributions from me, to the LibreOffice code base patches... Which is what is expected of EVERYONE - you're no different. Or some other contribution. You're coming over as very demanding, wondering why nobody else has tried to do the same as you, and expecting them to drop what they're doing and help you. Except they're not doing it, because they see no value in doing it! And why should they waste their valuable time helping someone else, unless they get a kick out of the sheer act of helping? (Most of us, we're NOT paid ...) If I missunderstood your things... can you then tar up an example and send it to me. git pull is your friend. :-) You're coming over as a typical American - barging into someone else's community, expecting them to change everything (that works fine for them) just to suit you, and then wondering why nobody likes you. I notice Michael is pretty much the only person in your email threads now (and I strongly suspect he is PAID to be nice to everyone). The problem is, as has been pointed out, you are working on a very thorny issue - build systems. On a system that very few developers use (Windows). And one that a lot of developers despise and don't want to touch! A lot of your emails have been right over my head, for one. If anyone is going to help you, it will take a lot of effort for them to get up to speed on what you're trying to do. And those people (like Michael) who are being paid to work on LibreOffice are few in number, and have a lot of more serious priorities. I don't want to say you're on your own, but the reality is that most people here don't see what you're doing as either important, or of interest to them. Which means you aren't going to get much help (not because people don't want to, but because they don't understand what - or why - you are trying to achieve). And by coming over as demanding, you just guarantee that the people who *could* help, will likely tune you out. Sorry, it's just the way things work :-( Cheers, Wol nick -Original Message- From: LibreOffice [mailto:libreoffice-boun...@lists.freedesktop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Meeks Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 2:54 PM To: nicholas ferguson Cc: 'libreoffice-dev'; 'Tor Lillqvist' Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component Hi Nicholas, On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 13:43 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: you will need to solve a truck-load of bootstrapping issues Wow. So in the past seven years, not a single successful attempt There are several successful attempts. It is certainly not impossible to do this. Those attempts have however been done by people skilled and experienced in the art of wrestling the LibreOffice octopus - I've personally broken the back of a couple of them. My concern here
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 14:57 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: I didn't understand your answer. I think you said you would not give me the samples of turning a cppunit test into a standalone executable All the code is there in public, in front of you; I've given you pointers into it too for the bits you want. And that first you want to see some contributions from me, to the LibreOffice code base patches... My concern is investing a ton of time doing work for you on a corner case that will not result in any improvement for the project =) Phrase that as you like. If I missunderstood your things... can you then tar up an example and send it to me. If you look at the several code pointers in my previous mails, and compare those paths with the files in the master source code tree, you'll have the best I have. There is no magic repository of closed code anywhere here; no-one (that I know of) has done this before - apart from the several examples that live in-build-tree or in-install, as explained. All the best, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
Most open source code repositories, would upload to a github, samples. Here with you...you tell me well this is how lots of folks went about before you, Nicholas, to discover how to do this...good luck...and have a good time. They were skilled programmers and understood how to tackle the ocotpus of LibreOffice. And by the way, I can tell you that I also did. So it can be done, and I won't send you samples, because you would ask me questions, and what the heck, I have to make monies. And oh. I feel your pain. -Original Message- From: Michael Meeks [mailto:michael.me...@collabora.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 4:24 PM To: nicholas ferguson Cc: 'libreoffice-dev'; 'Tor Lillqvist' Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 14:57 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: I didn't understand your answer. I think you said you would not give me the samples of turning a cppunit test into a standalone executable All the code is there in public, in front of you; I've given you pointers into it too for the bits you want. And that first you want to see some contributions from me, to the LibreOffice code base patches... My concern is investing a ton of time doing work for you on a corner case that will not result in any improvement for the project =) Phrase that as you like. If I missunderstood your things... can you then tar up an example and send it to me. If you look at the several code pointers in my previous mails, and compare those paths with the files in the master source code tree, you'll have the best I have. There is no magic repository of closed code anywhere here; no-one (that I know of) has done this before - apart from the several examples that live in-build-tree or in-install, as explained. All the best, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On 9/30/2014 12:47 PM, nicholas ferguson wrote: You missunderstand the english of a question. We understand the English. The people that understand the question also know what the usual end-result of that question is. Consequently a short-circuit answer is provided. If all that was required was the specific answer, that short-circuit provided it. If what was desired was the usual end-result of that question, then the short-circuit is inadequate. Now, if you'd come up with I'm trying to do x, headless, in Windows. * Here is what I've done. * Here is what happened in Windows. * Here is what is happens on a Linux Box. * Here is what I expected. * This is how I get there in Linux. * I tried it in Windows, but instead this happens. The answer probably would have been closer to what you expected/wanted/desired. jonathon -- ODF: Your documents, your language, your way. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
Hi Nicholas, On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 16:27 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: Most open source code repositories, would upload to a github, samples. Great - you've identified a hole you can help fill. Please don't feel there is some them vs. us here; you are one of us. The reason there are no good samples on github is because -you- Nicholas Ferguson have not up-loaded any. Why not ! I'm waiting ... ;-) Seriously - this project depends on people getting involved an having a go. Personally I find the people working on it together in a constructive way really fun to work with =) I try to listen to their good advice (when I can); I get motivated by being told something cannot be done (that's the engineer in my); together we try to make the project incrementally better. Sure its easy to moan about what is not there; but its also good to focus on what is there and how to improve it. If you don't like my advice on how best to achieve your goal, and my gently warning you off from more difficult approaches - that is just fine; prove me wrong - I'm used to being wrong frequently. Don't assume that your problem / frustration is particularly interesting to me though, I'm writing to try to do you a favour. So it can be done, and I won't send you samples, because you would ask me questions Do you actually read my mails ? =) I usually do that before I send them and while I'm trying to tone them down. I wrote: All the code is there in public, in front of you; I've given you pointers into it too for the bits you want. As a special service I've dug out some of those fragments again and append them for you in one place. Finally lets be totally clear - you are personally responsible for not having up-loaded some sample apps for LibreOffice to github - at least in just the same way that all of the rest of us are =) All the best, Michael. [snip] You might think that an easy approach to start here is to copy/paste the desktop/source/lib/init.cxx code that does this - but (almost certainly) you'd be fooling yourself. [/snip] [snip] Please try using LibreOfficeKit - that should be reasonably trivial with a recent master Windows install and the headers copy/pasted from include/LibreOfficeKit. If you pass the path of your install into that, it should do all that bootstrapping logic for you. [/snip] [snip] I would instead write a small built-in tool that just dumps this data through a custom API; perhaps we can add some statistics API to liblibreoffice/ that could be used to trigger this lot. Once you hit the UNO API you're often dealing with un-parsed forms of formulae again. So - what I'd do is just hack on calc in some crazy way; steal some button or other [ incidentally do you want this for an automated service or a UI spreadsheet debugging tool ? ] - and use that to walk over all the formulae. So eg. steal the Number format currency button (this is New York right ? ;-) sc/source/ui/view/formatsh.cxx:case SID_NUMBER_CURRENCY: You want the 2nd hit of that; the first is for whether it is enabled or not. Now work your way around to the ScDocument: ScDocument* pDoc = GetViewData()-GetDocument(); And wander over the sheets / formulae etc. If you read sc/inc/document.hxx one trick - when you get to column.hxx - you should really operate on FormulaGroups - since they represent repeated formulae which will save you a ton of time with columns of big sheets. You also have methods like this: [/snip] -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
what I will put in...is that there have a been a boat load of well intentioned software, where for some reason, the support community decided that entry required a high cost of time + effort. And those companies disappeared, eventually. Quickfix on sourceforge had a very low cost of entry. Developers could pick it up and run with it. RStudio has a low cost of entry. Developers download it, build it and then run with it. Builders those app..is what is called a 'no brainer'. LibreOffice has a terrible high cost of entry..at least for windows. -Original Message- From: LibreOffice [mailto:libreoffice-boun...@lists.freedesktop.org] On Behalf Of jonathon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 4:33 PM To: libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component On 9/30/2014 12:47 PM, nicholas ferguson wrote: You missunderstand the english of a question. We understand the English. The people that understand the question also know what the usual end-result of that question is. Consequently a short-circuit answer is provided. If all that was required was the specific answer, that short-circuit provided it. If what was desired was the usual end-result of that question, then the short-circuit is inadequate. Now, if you'd come up with I'm trying to do x, headless, in Windows. * Here is what I've done. * Here is what happened in Windows. * Here is what is happens on a Linux Box. * Here is what I expected. * This is how I get there in Linux. * I tried it in Windows, but instead this happens. The answer probably would have been closer to what you expected/wanted/desired. jonathon -- ODF: Your documents, your language, your way. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
Though, I did see that OpenOffice had an even more terrible cost of entry. Unbelievable... -Original Message- From: LibreOffice [mailto:libreoffice-boun...@lists.freedesktop.org] On Behalf Of nicholas ferguson Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 4:50 PM To: 'jonathon'; libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org Subject: RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component what I will put in...is that there have a been a boat load of well intentioned software, where for some reason, the support community decided that entry required a high cost of time + effort. And those companies disappeared, eventually. Quickfix on sourceforge had a very low cost of entry. Developers could pick it up and run with it. RStudio has a low cost of entry. Developers download it, build it and then run with it. Builders those app..is what is called a 'no brainer'. LibreOffice has a terrible high cost of entry..at least for windows. -Original Message- From: LibreOffice [mailto:libreoffice-boun...@lists.freedesktop.org] On Behalf Of jonathon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 4:33 PM To: libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component On 9/30/2014 12:47 PM, nicholas ferguson wrote: You missunderstand the english of a question. We understand the English. The people that understand the question also know what the usual end-result of that question is. Consequently a short-circuit answer is provided. If all that was required was the specific answer, that short-circuit provided it. If what was desired was the usual end-result of that question, then the short-circuit is inadequate. Now, if you'd come up with I'm trying to do x, headless, in Windows. * Here is what I've done. * Here is what happened in Windows. * Here is what is happens on a Linux Box. * Here is what I expected. * This is how I get there in Linux. * I tried it in Windows, but instead this happens. The answer probably would have been closer to what you expected/wanted/desired. jonathon -- ODF: Your documents, your language, your way. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 16:50 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: LibreOffice has a terrible high cost of entry..at least for windows. Sure - you're not wrong. Then again, it is particularly high for developers with 'old' machines - lots of compilers etc. [ which is a shame ]. It's even higher for those with no / intermittent internet connections who want stuff mailed to them. It's also quite high for those with enough knowledge to be dangerous - trying a series of funky hack arounds etc. Fixes much appreciated; I'd love to get LibreOffice building out of the box on your machine (FWIW) - if we could work out how to auto-detect and defeat whatever problems there are in configure.ac that would help others I have no doubt; patches welcome. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
My favorite memory of LibreOffice's high cost of entry..was to build a release mode. Tor and Michael insisted it worked. They even let me download a tar of a recent set of files, that had built ok. I duplicated their directory structure. And my build still failed. Wow. So I did a forensic on the env. And I discovered that Norton Antivirus was isolating state files and some executables being built by the LibreOffice build system. So I asked Tor..hey..what brand of antivirus do you use? I'll switch over. He had turned his off too. So that alone took two to three weeks. I even had to resort to buying a new machine...devoted to libreoffice. $300 machine. Trying to solve why my builds were failing on windows. If an antivirus was turned on when LibreOffice staffers do builds..then they would have had to correct something..so that Norton Antivirus would not decide that a virus had been generated. This is probably why Michael and Tor rememeber me for too many emails. What the heck is going on here? I would email them. how can you claim your stuff builds? -Original Message- From: LibreOffice [mailto:libreoffice-boun...@lists.freedesktop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Meeks Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 4:55 PM To: nicholas ferguson Cc: libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org; 'jonathon' Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 16:50 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: LibreOffice has a terrible high cost of entry..at least for windows. Sure - you're not wrong. Then again, it is particularly high for developers with 'old' machines - lots of compilers etc. [ which is a shame ]. It's even higher for those with no / intermittent internet connections who want stuff mailed to them. It's also quite high for those with enough knowledge to be dangerous - trying a series of funky hack arounds etc. Fixes much appreciated; I'd love to get LibreOffice building out of the box on your machine (FWIW) - if we could work out how to auto-detect and defeat whatever problems there are in configure.ac that would help others I have no doubt; patches welcome. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
I would think..that having to deal with this single issue, outlined below, that Michael and Tor would send me a sample of sc unit tests migrated over to a console application or at least a linux application, built as a standalone app, with a main in it. That would be a good gesture. Nick -Original Message- From: LibreOffice [mailto:libreoffice-boun...@lists.freedesktop.org] On Behalf Of nicholas ferguson Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:20 PM To: 'Michael Meeks' Cc: libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org; 'jonathon' Subject: RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component My favorite memory of LibreOffice's high cost of entry..was to build a release mode. Tor and Michael insisted it worked. They even let me download a tar of a recent set of files, that had built ok. I duplicated their directory structure. And my build still failed. Wow. So I did a forensic on the env. And I discovered that Norton Antivirus was isolating state files and some executables being built by the LibreOffice build system. So I asked Tor..hey..what brand of antivirus do you use? I'll switch over. He had turned his off too. So that alone took two to three weeks. I even had to resort to buying a new machine...devoted to libreoffice. $300 machine. Trying to solve why my builds were failing on windows. If an antivirus was turned on when LibreOffice staffers do builds..then they would have had to correct something..so that Norton Antivirus would not decide that a virus had been generated. This is probably why Michael and Tor rememeber me for too many emails. What the heck is going on here? I would email them. how can you claim your stuff builds? -Original Message- From: LibreOffice [mailto:libreoffice-boun...@lists.freedesktop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Meeks Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 4:55 PM To: nicholas ferguson Cc: libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org; 'jonathon' Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component On Tue, 2014-09-30 at 16:50 -0400, nicholas ferguson wrote: LibreOffice has a terrible high cost of entry..at least for windows. Sure - you're not wrong. Then again, it is particularly high for developers with 'old' machines - lots of compilers etc. [ which is a shame ]. It's even higher for those with no / intermittent internet connections who want stuff mailed to them. It's also quite high for those with enough knowledge to be dangerous - trying a series of funky hack arounds etc. Fixes much appreciated; I'd love to get LibreOffice building out of the box on your machine (FWIW) - if we could work out how to auto-detect and defeat whatever problems there are in configure.ac that would help others I have no doubt; patches welcome. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component
I think that is a bad idea. A good idea is to turn on anti virus where work is done. you can't tell developers to turn off their anti virus when working on windows. That’s crazy talk -Original Message- From: Robinson Tryon [mailto:bishop.robin...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:48 PM To: nicholas ferguson Cc: Michael Meeks; libreoffice-dev; jonathon Subject: Re: examples to manage docs using LibreOffice as a major component On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 5:19 PM, nicholas ferguson nicholasfergu...@wingarch.com wrote: Wow. So I did a forensic on the env. And I discovered that Norton Antivirus was isolating state files and some executables being built by the LibreOffice build system. So I asked Tor..hey..what brand of antivirus do you use? I'll switch over. He had turned his off too. So that alone took two to three weeks. I even had to resort to buying a new machine...devoted to libreoffice. $300 machine. Trying to solve why my builds were failing on windows. It sounds like antivirus software may cause problems with Windows builds. That's useful information. Could you please document the specifics on the wiki? https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/BuildingOnWindows#Failures Right now, I don't see anything mentioning anti, virus, symantec, or norton on that page, so it's quite possible that the next person is going to run into the same problems you did. Let's nip that one problem in the bud. Thanks, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
