[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #28 from Kevin  ---
(In reply to Timur from comment #26)

>I don't see what you're trying to achieve

It doesn't matter. The bug is in the dialog box itself:

1. when the user makes a change in the dialog box, making another change should
not revert the first change (unless there's some logic reason, which there
isn't)

2. having to click okay to apply the checkbox setting when there are literally
dozens of settings that the dialog box allows the user to assign is
counterintuitive in the extreme.

Look at the Excel screenshot. It's simple; it's obvious; it works. There's no
need for the totally confusing and buggy "remove border" and no need for the
code that changes the user's actions without explanation.

Millions of people use Excel in spite of its horrible flaws. Start with what
they know and make it better. With your misguided approached to formatting
cells, you've created a whole new house of horrors with different bugs. In all
the reports I've submitted, not one person has addressed this. I've given you
hours of free beta-testing (I used to do it full time for good money in Silicon
Valley). I'm entitled to an explanation instead of all this passive-aggressive
nit-picking. Your program is fundamentally broken in terms of the visual
control of spreadsheets and until you address this, you're going to continue to
drive users away.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #27 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 164058
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=164058=edit
Excel Format Cells screenshot

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #26 from Timur  ---
I don't see what you are trying to achieve. In the example I don't see borders. 
It's not obvious with thos sample and separate screenshots, better to put all
in a single file, with explanation. 

Another problem is with steps. When you select "remove border" you should click
OK for that to be applied.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #25 from Kevin  ---
Addressing another part of comment 13 where you say "so we know what the bug
really does": the bug is that the Format Cells dialog is broken such that the
*user* doesn't know what it does! It doesn't behave logically and has seemingly
redundant features. It keeps doing things automatically with no explanation
that undo what they user has done. Try it in Excel and you'll see. It doesn't
need to be complicated - it can be "what you see is what you get", with one
border between two cells and no "remove border" checkbox.

Between two adjacent cells, there is either a line, or no line. It's binary.
The Format Cells should allow the user to specify whether there's a line, and
if so, what type of line (thickness, color, etc.). The dialog should show this
and when the dialog is dismissed the spreadsheet should appear as it appeared
in the dialog. Once the user changes the existence of, or appearance of, a line
between two cells in the dialog box, it should STAY that way until and unless
the user changes it, and it should stay that way in the spreadsheet as well.
Libre Calc keeps changing things it hasn't been asked to change.

This same core problem of losing settings runs through the whole interface,
whether it's borders, fonts, colors, font styles. Nearly all of the bugs I
reported relate to this core design flaw.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #24 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 164045
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=164045=edit
for comment 20-screenshot 4

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #23 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 164044
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=164044=edit
for comment 20-screenshot 3

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #22 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 164043
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=164043=edit
for comment 20-screenshot 2

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #21 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 164042
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=164042=edit
for comment 20

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #20 from Kevin  ---
Now with the alpha 7 version, and addressing comment 13's request

4. go to the borders tab

see 2020-screenshot-1

5. click on the right-most vertical border 3 times, until no border is shown 

see 2020-screenshot-2

6. the "remove border" checkbox is now active - check it

see 2020-screenshot-3

7. now move on to the center vertical border and click that one three times,
until no border is shown (the border setting selected in step 5 now
auto-reverts to its previous setting)

see 2020-screenshot-4

Actual Results:  
the border setting selected in step 5 now auto-reverts to its previous setting

Expected Results:
The user should be able to make changes to the border settings in any order
without being forced by Calc to only work in a specific (and unexplained)
order. This is a cousin to the earlier report where Calc changes the font
properties of characters that have not been selected by the user.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

Timur  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|REOPENED|NEW

--- Comment #19 from Timur  ---
Bug was closed because of no reaction to Comment 13.
One should always prepare sample that's clear to tester (who has maybe dozens
of other tests to make). 
"Reopened" is when fix was wrong, this is "New" again if you say it's still
wrong. 
Please test with master from
https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/current.html

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #18 from Kevin  ---
Now that I'm thinking about this again, I'm remembering the core problem:
unlike Excel, you are differentiating between the right border of cell A1 and
the left border of cell B1, but your interface (like Excel) shows only one
border (as it should), and you've added the confusing "remove border"
checkboxes. You took one of the few good parts of Excel and made it needlessly
more complicated - adding confusion and many bugs, but no additional
functionality as far as I can see. 


I was extremely frustrated with Excel and when I heard about Libre, I was
thrilled that (I thought) others were as frustrated as I was and had set out to
create a friendly, smart spreadsheet program. I worked very hard on testing
this for a long time, then threw up my hands in frustration that nothing was
getting fixed and the core philosophy of making a better Excel seemed to have
been a silly fantasy on my part. Still, after more than a year and many new
versions, I expected that when I came back to it, at least some of the problems
I spent so much effort reporting would have been addressed. This problem is
precisely as it was when I left it. If you look through my reports, you'll find
a wonderful, elaborate spreadsheet showing all of the harmonies to all the
Beatles songs. If someone on your team who's interested in that will take a
look at it and try to add more musical data and make it look good, you'll see
why I'm so frustrated, why I took the time to report all those bugs and why the
design of Calc is fundamentally flawed from a visual point of view.
Spreadsheets are not just for math - they're also for making visual
presentations that require more power than Word/Writer tables. You've improved
on many aspects of Excel, but at the same time you're created new problems not
in Excel. I thought the strategy would have been to start with a cleaner, more
elegant, smaller-footprint version of Excel without the bugs and then add the
graphic and work-flow functionality that Excel users have been crying out for
all these years.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

Kevin  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED
 Resolution|INSUFFICIENTDATA|---

--- Comment #17 from Kevin  ---
see comment for version, system and reproducibility (100%) as of 8/8/2020

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #16 from Kevin  ---
I'm now on Win10 with Calc v. 6.4.4.2

I don't understand why you say "insufficient data". I've given you a
spreadsheet with rock-solid 100% reproducible steps. I will try them again now.

Here are the original steps with comments bracketed by ***'s. Note especially
the final paragraph, bracketed by ***'s. 

Steps to Reproduce:
1. open the attached spreadsheet
2. select all the cells that have contents (rows 2-10 in columns B and C)
3. right-click and choose Format Cells (note: unlike earlier versions, if this
is the first time you've opened this dialog since launching the app, it will
take between 30 and 60 seconds to load)

***it only took 15 seconds, but still didn't give any visual indication that it
was working (like an hourglass icon)-even the 2nd time it took about 10 seconds
to open the format cells dialog***

4. go to the borders tab
5. click on the right-most vertical border 3 times, until no border is shown 
6. the "remove border" checkbox is now active - check it
7. now move on to the center vertical border and click that one three times,
until no border is shown (the border setting selected in step 5 now
auto-reverts to its previous setting)

Actual Results:  
the border setting selected in step 5 now auto-reverts to its previous setting

Expected Results:
The user should be able to make changes to the border settings in any order
without being forced by Calc to only work in a specific (and unexplained)
order. This is a cousin to the earlier report where Calc changes the font
properties of characters that have not been selected by the user.

***This still behaves exactly as described. I haven't worked on this bug for
over a year and I had no problem following my steps. What further clarification
are you looking for? The reason I got so frustrated with the Calc beta-testing
process is that the powers that be don't seem to understand the concept of
"first, do no harm". The idea is to fix what's wrong with Excel (there's so
much) without adding new problems.***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

QA Administrators  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Resolution|--- |INSUFFICIENTDATA
 Status|NEEDINFO|RESOLVED

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #15 from QA Administrators  ---
Dear Kevin,

Please read this message in its entirety before proceeding.

Your bug report is being closed as INSUFFICIENTDATA due to inactivity and
a lack of information which is needed in order to accurately
reproduce and confirm the problem. We encourage you to retest
your bug against the latest release. If the issue is still
present in the latest stable release, we need the following
information (please ignore any that you've already provided):

a) Provide details of your system including your operating
   system and the latest version of LibreOffice that you have
   confirmed the bug to be present

b) Provide easy to reproduce steps – the simpler the better

c) Provide any test case(s) which will help us confirm the problem

d) Provide screenshots of the problem if you think it might help

e) Read all comments and provide any requested information

Once all of this is done, please set the bug back to UNCONFIRMED
and we will attempt to reproduce the issue. Please do not:

a) respond via email 

b) update the version field in the bug or any of the other details
   on the top section of our bug tracker

Warm Regards,
QA Team

MassPing-NeedInfo-FollowUp

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #14 from QA Administrators  ---
Dear Kevin,

This bug has been in NEEDINFO status with no change for at least
6 months. Please provide the requested information as soon as
possible and mark the bug as UNCONFIRMED. Due to regular bug
tracker maintenance, if the bug is still in NEEDINFO status with
no change in 30 days the QA team will close the bug as INSUFFICIENTDATA
due to lack of needed information.

For more information about our NEEDINFO policy please read the
wiki located here:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/Fields/Status/NEEDINFO

If you have already provided the requested information, please
mark the bug as UNCONFIRMED so that the QA team knows that the
bug is ready to be confirmed.

Thank you for helping us make LibreOffice even better for everyone!

Warm Regards,
QA Team

MassPing-NeedInfo-Ping

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

Timur  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |NEEDINFO

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #13 from Timur  ---
This bug should be clarified with better sample where just borders are seen and
with images in ods file where results/border look of each step are shown.So
that we know what the bug really does.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #12 from QA Administrators  ---
** Please read this message in its entirety before responding **

To make sure we're focusing on the bugs that affect our users today,
LibreOffice QA is asking bug reporters and confirmers to retest open, confirmed
bugs which have not been touched for over a year.

There have been thousands of bug fixes and commits since anyone checked on this
bug report. During that time, it's possible that the bug has been fixed, or the
details of the problem have changed. We'd really appreciate your help in
getting confirmation that the bug is still present.

If you have time, please do the following:

Test to see if the bug is still present with the latest version of LibreOffice
from https://www.libreoffice.org/download/

If the bug is present, please leave a comment that includes the information
from Help - About LibreOffice.

If the bug is NOT present, please set the bug's Status field to
RESOLVED-WORKSFORME and leave a comment that includes the information from Help
- About LibreOffice.

Please DO NOT

Update the version field
Reply via email (please reply directly on the bug tracker)
Set the bug's Status field to RESOLVED - FIXED (this status has a particular
meaning that is not 
appropriate in this case)


If you want to do more to help you can test to see if your issue is a
REGRESSION. To do so:
1. Download and install oldest version of LibreOffice (usually 3.3 unless your
bug pertains to a feature added after 3.3) from
http://downloadarchive.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/old/

2. Test your bug
3. Leave a comment with your results.
4a. If the bug was present with 3.3 - set version to 'inherited from OOo';
4b. If the bug was not present in 3.3 - add 'regression' to keyword


Feel free to come ask questions or to say hello in our QA chat:
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Thank you for helping us make LibreOffice even better for everyone!

Warm Regards,
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

raal  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 CC||r...@post.cz
 Blocks||59284
 Ever confirmed|0   |1
 OS|Windows (All)   |All

--- Comment #11 from raal  ---
confirm, Version: 5.5.0.0.alpha0+
Build ID: 59c9d0653cc42560af48269bb8dee2c2b0b20f68
CPU threads: 4; OS: Linux 4.4; UI render: default; VCL: gtk2; 
TinderBox: Linux-rpm_deb-x86_64@70-TDF, Branch:master, Time:
2017-06-06_23:50:05


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59284
[Bug 59284] [META] Cell border related issues (Make it easier to apply borders
to cells)
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #10 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 133495
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133495=edit
screenshot 4

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #8 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 133493
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133493=edit
screenshot 2

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #9 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 133494
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133494=edit
screenshot 3

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #7 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 133492
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133492=edit
screenshot for second set of steps

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #6 from Kevin  ---
(In reply to Buovjaga from comment #5)

I installed the screencast program but couldn't get it to record. 

Simpler Steps:

1. open 107901.ods
2. select the region with contents
3. Format Cells/Borders
(see 107901-1.jpg)
4. click the right most vertical border 3 times
(see 107901-2.jpg)
5. check Remove Border
(see 107901-3.jpg)
6. click the leftmost vertical border once

result - as shown in 107901-4.jpg - the remove border checkbox is unchecked and
the rightmost border that you removed has been re-drawn.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #5 from Buovjaga  ---
I tried reproducing and noticed that the steps are a bit imprecise. Apparently
step 5 should be: click the rightmost vertical border 3 times so it also
affects the horizontal border in the middle. If you click it so only the
vertical border is affected, the "Remove border" checkbox will not become
active.

I cannot reproduce the bug, however. The border indicators do not reset to the
original setting after step 7, no matter where I click on the center vertical
line.

It might be useful to record a screencast: https://obsproject.com/

Arch Linux 64-bit, KDE Plasma 5
Version: 5.5.0.0.alpha0+
Build ID: 6b5fc059543c16759abd5eec2576b5b68e96883a
CPU threads: 8; OS: Linux 4.10; UI render: default; VCL: kde4; 
Locale: fi-FI (fi_FI.UTF-8); Calc: group
Built on May 21st 2017

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

Kevin  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|UNCONFIRMED
 Ever confirmed|1   |0

--- Comment #4 from Kevin  ---
(In reply to Buovjaga from comment #3)
> Kevin: can you test with a fresh build:
> http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/Win-x86_64@42/current/

This bug is still active in:

Version: 5.5.0.0.alpha0+ (x64)
Build ID: d69a91a3099d0b828f81cb90d6139da0e0af6fcf

The same file and the same steps produce the same result. Back to 5.3.2.2 I
guess since it's presumably more stable and my bugs are still outstanding in
5.5.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

Buovjaga  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEEDINFO
 CC||todven...@suomi24.fi
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #3 from Buovjaga  ---
Kevin: can you test with a fresh build:
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/Win-x86_64@42/current/

Set to NEEDINFO.
Change back to UNCONFIRMED, if the problem persists. Change to RESOLVED
WORKSFORME, if the problem went away.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

Jacques Guilleron  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||guillero...@aol.com

--- Comment #2 from Jacques Guilleron  ---
Hi Kevin,

I don't reproducce with
LO 5.4.0.0.alpha1+ Build ID: 68a1cb23ede1d4ae6195850190fca6953c30417f
CPU threads: 2; OS: Windows 6.1; UI render: default; 
TinderBox: Win-x86@39, Branch:master, Time: 2017-05-14_07:04:56
Locale: fr-FR (fr_FR); Calc: CL

With LO 5.3.3.2, I reproduce only the first time I load the file.
Moreover, starting from scratch, I don't reproduce.

Jacques

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 107901] Format Cells dialog overwrites user selection

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107901

--- Comment #1 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 133365
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133365=edit
spreadsheet for report 107901

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