[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

--- Comment #25 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Shu Zhang from comment #24)
> I think it is a great idea to have the CSD, nowadays not only PC apps but
> also browsers are using CSD a lot, so what do other ux designers say?

It is *not* a UX design issue. We'd love to have it--it is a dev and
implementation issue 'cross platform'. If we touch the CSD we would have to
maintain it everywhere, all os all DE.

It is not critical and does not impact usability of the project--purely
cosmetic to place controls as CSD--with a horrendous support tail incurred.

Just NO!

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--- Comment #24 from Shu Zhang <122092...@qq.com> ---
I think it is a great idea to have the CSD, nowadays not only PC apps but also
browsers are using CSD a lot, so what do other ux designers say?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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--- Comment #23 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to third='beedell', first='roke', second='julian lockhart' from
comment #22)
> GitLab provides reactions for issues, but Bugzilla doesn't.

Up and down voting... would be nice. 

Btw, you can tag comment as off-topic.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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--- Comment #22 from third='beedell', first='roke', second='julian lockhart' 
 ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #21)
> (In reply to third='beedell', first='roke', second='julian lockhart' from
> comment #20)
> > ...I'd like to be able to demonstrate that I oppose...
> You disagree with CSD? Comments are welcome. If you want a pull, happy to
> put it on Twitter or Mastodon. What do you want to ask exactly (given
> ordinary users have no idea of CSD)?

I don't want to ask anything. I want to allow people to oppose or support this
initiative, but without notifying everyone subscribed. GitLab provides
reactions for issues, but Bugzilla doesn't.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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--- Comment #21 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to third='beedell', first='roke', second='julian lockhart' from
comment #20)
> ...I'd like to be able to demonstrate that I oppose...
You disagree with CSD? Comments are welcome. If you want a pull, happy to put
it on Twitter or Mastodon. What do you want to ask exactly (given ordinary
users have no idea of CSD)?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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--- Comment #20 from third='beedell', first='roke', second='julian lockhart' 
 ---
Would be nice if someone with some authority would post a poll about this,
because I'd like to be able to demonstrate that I oppose (initiatives like)
this without having to spam comments, and I expect others do too.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||115512


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115512
[Bug 115512] Client-side window decorations (remove titlebar from UI when
running GNOME with some toolbar view modes)
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15
   ||4472

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Ever confirmed|0   |1
 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
   Priority|medium  |low

--- Comment #19 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Have seen many mockups with CSD, and the number of duplicates also shows the
interest. Both Windows and Gnome do it in native apps. So we better keep this
ticket, IMO.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org
 Ever confirmed|1   |0
 Status|REOPENED|UNCONFIRMED

--- Comment #18 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Back for UX-Advise consideration.

But, nothing has changed, status quo as in my comment 9

Nothing "compelling" a move UI elements into CSD support and a incurring the
dev effort and native source maintenance tail placing UI into CSD would
require.

-1, and IMHO => WF

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

Michael FA  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Version|5.4.2.2 release |unspecified
 Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED
 Resolution|WONTFIX |---

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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--- Comment #17 from Michael FA  ---
Created attachment 184358
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=184358=edit
small improvement in the LibreOffice interface

a small improvement is needed in the LibreOffice interface, a better
redistribution of the interface, I will give you a concept in image of what I
am talking about

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||maicoleduardofigueroa@gmail
   ||.com

--- Comment #16 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 152502 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14
   ||6085

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||marcioalvesdasilva60@gmail.
   ||com

--- Comment #15 from V Stuart Foote  ---
*** Bug 140001 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||125443


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125443
[Bug 125443] Implement different border colors depending on the LibreOffice app
launched on Windows
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

--- Comment #14 from V Stuart Foote  ---
*** Bug 124373 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

--- Comment #13 from V Stuart Foote  ---
*** Bug 124290 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||prabesh...@gmail.com

--- Comment #12 from V Stuart Foote  ---
*** Bug 124009 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

Maxim Monastirsky  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11
   ||5512

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||113209, 103303


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=103303
[Bug 103303] [META] Desktop integration bugs and enhancements
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113209
[Bug 113209] [META] UI bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||shanshandehongxing@outlook.
   ||com

--- Comment #11 from V Stuart Foote  ---
*** Bug 114687 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |tietze.he...@gmail.com
   |.freedesktop.org|
 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX

--- Comment #10 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Asked devs and got the confirmation that the outer frame is generated by the
OS. So any change to it is notourbug/wontfix. Everything inside is covered by
the discussion of notenookbars.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

--- Comment #9 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Windows allows this using Desktop Windows Manager (DWM) APIs and extending the
Client Frame [1] replacing the Standard Frame.

IIUC macOS AppKit does also, from the NSWindow/NSView ->
NSAppearanceCustomization [2], but as we make no use of NSAppearance (taking
defaults) for the NSWindow/NSView and stylemask(s).

So both of these would require entirely new development in native code to do
any sort of client side decoration.

While on Linux--X11, and now Wayland, there are multiple code paths for doing
this depending on the DE supporting GUI toolkit being supported.

So, while it could be done--there is no _compelling_ requirement to do so, and
a whole bunch of pain involved in trying to implement cross platform with any
consistent fashion. Allowing  OS and DE defaults just makes more sense from a
UX position.

Again IMHO => WONTFIX

=-ref-=
[1]
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb688195(v=vs.85).aspx

[2] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/appkit/nsappearancecustomization
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/appkit/nsappearance

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113388

--- Comment #8 from haevalen...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7)
> Aren't you talking about different use cases? You will get more vertical
> space when the title bar is removed by the OS/DE.

Not really, but what you propose is not a reality either, since it doesnt
happen (KDE Netbook only and the extinct Unity -with great inconsistency- in
gnu/linux side). It is not possible at will in macos or windows to remove the
titlebar and if it were to do so it loses functionality (like window controls).

> CSD is about adding
> functionality to the title bar, basically, and 'make use of this area'.

That's the way it is and by using that space efficiently, the total space
occupied to draw the interface is reduced. 


> I disagree with this idea because white-space is my friend, and picking up the
> window to move it around is what I do quite often. 

Mozilla developers have worked on this problem in their implementation for
gnu/linux by adding white-space when the window is not maximized among other
things. (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1399611). Something
similar was already being done on its other supported platforms.

In other office applications there is always clickable white-space to move the
window, something that doesnt happen in LO (toolbar or tabs of notebookbar
white-space is not clickable).

> The advantage is clear on
> the other hand, and it's a nice design as shown here [1] for KDE.
> 
> (In reply to haevalencia from comment #4)
> > I dont understand why LO keep using a titlebar anyway.
> > 
> > I suppose I will have to address the VCL plugin developers...
> 
> LibreOffice uses the system window, and draws controls with the system
> theme. Starting with a different VCL never changes the window. 
> And we do not have dedicated VCL developers.
> 

ok

> [1]
> https://kver.wordpress.com/2014/10/25/what-if-kde-started-using-client-side-
> decorations/

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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--- Comment #7 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Aren't you talking about different use cases? You will get more vertical space
when the title bar is removed by the OS/DE. CSD is about adding functionality
to the title bar, basically, and 'make use of this area'. I disagree with this
idea because white-space is my friend, and picking up the window to move it
around is what I do quite often. The advantage is clear on the other hand, and
it's a nice design as shown here [1] for KDE.

(In reply to haevalencia from comment #4)
> I dont understand why LO keep using a titlebar anyway.
> 
> I suppose I will have to address the VCL plugin developers...

LibreOffice uses the system window, and draws controls with the system theme.
Starting with a different VCL never changes the window. 
And we do not have dedicated VCL developers.

[1]
https://kver.wordpress.com/2014/10/25/what-if-kde-started-using-client-side-decorations/

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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--- Comment #6 from haevalen...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to Adolfo Jayme from comment #5)
> > Not really, but I dont understand why LO keep using a titlebar anyway.
> 
> Ha, ha, ha.
> 

Sorry dude, I don't think it's a place to make fun of anyone ...

> A title bar is a perfectly functional widget and a basic, timeless component
> of modern user interfaces, 

Nowadays there are many widgets that are functional, but that are not used for
many reasons. Keeping a horizontal bar that occupies several pixels just for
the title and window controls seems debatable to me... that is the point.

> despite all the GNOME Kool-Aid.

Okay, I see a lot of bias in your comment. If I mention other platforms it is
because both the macOS reference applications (core-apps) and the new Microsoft
apps + UWP reference don't use titlebar and the new applications for those two
platforms follow the same path.
On the *nix side only KDE (Kwin) has decided to force the use of titlebar
decorated by server side. 

But the point is functionality. Several of my students use laptops with small
monitors of 1366x768 or less resolution, where vertical space is prized,
whereas the new favorite layout will be tabbed NotebookBar. For example WPS
Writer hides the titlebar when the window is maximized and is not something
that depends on the OS/DE, it is simply something useful and can be something
totally optional.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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--- Comment #5 from Adolfo Jayme  ---
> Not really, but I dont understand why LO keep using a titlebar anyway.

Ha, ha, ha.

A title bar is a perfectly functional widget and a basic, timeless component of
modern user interfaces, despite all the GNOME Kool-Aid.

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--- Comment #4 from haevalen...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #2)
> 
> When you understand CSD as relevant for the title bar only, it's up to the
> OS/DE to support this.
> 
Not really, but I dont understand why LO keep using a titlebar anyway.

I suppose I will have to address the VCL plugin developers, although I
mentioned this here since the idea is to maintain a coherence in the interface
between platforms (something distinguishable with LO). Thank you.

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--- Comment #3 from haevalen...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #1)
> 
> We use the published IDL and API for the OS DE, but are not well served
> doing more to follow the whims of DE for each OS in a cross-platform project.
> 

I understand your point and I see that I misread my comment, however, there is
a certain consensus that among the operating systems for their applications to
draw their own interface and I dont think it is just a whims IMHO since
although it is irrelevant if we talk about functionality, consider that one of
the criticisms of OOorg/LibreOffice has always had is that it "looks" like
outdated software.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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--- Comment #2 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Don't we have CSD since 4.x? Meaning you can do everything with the gen vcl
theme to make it look completely different (see also bug 106878). Didnt find
the ticket about vcl switcher but the idea was to be able to toggle between vcl
plugins on-the-fly. 

When you understand CSD as relevant for the title bar only, it's up to the
OS/DE to support this.

Wontfix IMHO.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113388] Support for Client Side Windows Decorations in LibreOffice

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org,
   ||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #1 from V Stuart Foote  ---
We already pick up OS DesktopEnvironment theme details cross platform and use
them in the LO user interface(s) implemented as needed for each OS.

Doing more "native" decorations depends on interest of devs (e.g. implementing
separate gtk3 support). But while appealing to some, and getting some dev
attention, overall integration as native OS UI and widgets is not a design or
development goal for the project. 

We use the published IDL and API for the OS DE, but are not well served doing
more to follow the whims of DE for each OS in a cross-platform project.

IMHO => WONTFIX

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