[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

--- Comment #16 from Adalbert Hanßen  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #15)
> *** Bug 148867 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

This is also a duplicate of
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=148867, but the proposed
enhancement here is much better and general one than my later one!

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||adalbert.hans...@gmx.de

--- Comment #15 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 148867 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13
   ||6931

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||por...@narod.ru

--- Comment #14 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 115098 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

--- Comment #13 from Christian Lehmann  ---
You don't need them if you drag rows/columns with the mouse, as this might work
like in Firefox > Bookmarks > Management (shift of vertical order of
bookmarks). But if you use CTRL-V for insertion, you need a mark for a possible
insertion point.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Roman Kuznetsov <79045_79...@mail.ru> changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||79045_79...@mail.ru

--- Comment #12 from Roman Kuznetsov <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
I like mock-up of a table frame, but without triangles

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Roman Kuznetsov <79045_79...@mail.ru> changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks|103100  |107707


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=103100
[Bug 103100] [META] Writer table bugs and enhancements
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107707
[Bug 107707] [META] Writer table enhancements requests
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||34.rsre...@gmail.com

--- Comment #11 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 121857 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99
   ||457

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||ba...@caesar.elte.hu

--- Comment #10 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 117232 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

--- Comment #8 from Christian Lehmann  ---
> Other than that I like how iWorks does the job (Jay's screencast).

Indeed, pretty good. But how does one insert new or shifted columns/rows at a
certain position? For shifting a column/row, you don't need my little
triangles; a wandering arrow or red line, as in Thunderbird's bookmarks
management, would be sufficient. But for inserting new columns/rows, I cannot
think of a more user-friendly solution. (Consider that inserting in front of a
certain position 1) is programmer's thinking and 2) does not work if you want
to add them after the last column/row.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

--- Comment #7 from Christian Lehmann  ---
> - When you write "The proposal doesn't consider a selection within the table
> (e.g. A2:B3)", you are not referring to my proposal, are you? Its entire
> section 2 is devoted to this problem.

You talk about this use case in the first 2) but not further. Don't think
anything is missing but wanted to add this for clarification- current behavior
is good for cells only selections.

Please don't forget that my first proposal, of 2.11.17, has an attachment,
called writer_tables.odt, which describes this and other aspects in detail.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsDevEval

--- Comment #6 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Christian Lehmann from comment #5)
> ...I am, of course, in no position to fight for my proposal. 

As a user you are in the best position to fight. Don't hesitate to go ahead.

> - When you write "The proposal doesn't consider a selection within the table
> (e.g. A2:B3)", you are not referring to my proposal, are you? Its entire
> section 2 is devoted to this problem.

You talk about this use case in the first 2) but not further. Don't think
anything is missing but wanted to add this for clarification- current behavior
is good for cells only selections.

Other than that I like how iWorks does the job (Jay's screencast). Looks like a
lot of work, not really suited for GSoC. Any dev opinion about this?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

--- Comment #5 from Christian Lehmann  ---
Hi Heiko,
not being a developer, I am, of course, in no position to fight for my
proposal. Nevertheless, here are a few clarifications:
- According to my proposal, a frame is drawn around a table if the user is
editing the table. This would be as helpful in Writer as it is in Calc.
- Doing anything with the table just only because the cursor is hovering over
it does not seem a good idea to me; this might indeed be annoying to the user.
- The point is not to give the user feedback on the state that Writer is
currently in. The point is to render table management clear and simple. In my
proposal, I had counted numbers of mouse clicks and keys pressed. None of the
alternate proposals that have been mentioned fare better on this count.
- My proposal is not restricted to operations of Copy/Cut/Paste (incl. Shift).
It offers unified management of a whole set of further table operations.
Moreover, is uniformity across different applications in LO not a virtue?
- Is it an essential aspect of LO policy that it should imitate MS Word?
Particularly in questions of table management, this would seem a bad idea to
me. (There are, to be sure, features in which Word does fare better.)
- When you write "The proposal doesn't consider a selection within the table
(e.g. A2:B3)", you are not referring to my proposal, are you? Its entire
section 2 is devoted to this problem.
Cheers, Christian

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

--- Comment #4 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Created attachment 137588
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=137588=edit
Mockup for simple table management

Word cuts out the col/row and inserts it above or left of the new selection.
User feedback is given via cursor which turns into an arrow down/left at the
respective position at the table (plus a 'select all' floating button at
top/left). 

We do the same for user feedback, and I think that's sufficient. Adding a lot
of decorations around the table on hoover might be annoying for most users who
don't want to manipulate rows/cols and is not much helpful for the rest. 

I fully agree on the other hand with cutting the col/row and a 'natural
pasting'. So when the clipboard contains structured data it should be added as
this. Word extends the table if the cursor is not at the first col/row (e.g. at
B2), which makes sense.
Missing in Word is a way to simply copy the data and keep the structure. We
could make this possible by keeping the current behavior when only cells are
selected. But in case the full col/row is selected it should also use the table
structure. Tried to illustrate this in the attachment.


The proposal doesn't consider a selection within the table (e.g. A2:B3). In
this case Word and Writer work the same way and keep the source structure
intact and paste the content into the target cells (data are overridden without
warning). Would keep this.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||philip...@hotmail.com

--- Comment #3 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
Created attachment 137536
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=137536=edit
table management iwork pages

iWork Pages has a similar concept to this, where it shows the row and column
headers, but does so when selecting the table. WPS Writer on the other hand
shows its table management functions (move, resize, insert row, insert column)
when hovering over a table.

iWork Pages also has an interesting click behaviour, where if you click on a
table it selects the table, similar to how when we click on an image it selects
the image. Then when selected, clicking on a cell highlights the cell and you
can then click and hold to drag or click and drag to alter the highlight. A
third click brings you into the cell for editing its contents.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

--- Comment #2 from Christian Lehmann  ---
Created attachment 137516
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=137516=edit
Mock-up of a table frame

Here is a modest draft of the mock-up. Please improve and/or animate it.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 Blocks||103100
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #1 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Brilliant work, Christian. But your text might be a bit too long for most
readers. So could you please add mockups? If you need support we can do that
together (ping me on IRC or Telegram or here). 

Ideally, your solution would also solve some of the other issue with table
styles (see bug 103100). At least some references may support the overall
comprehension of the problem.


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=103100
[Bug 103100] [META] Writer table bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113603] Enhancement: unified table management in Writer

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113603

Dieter Praas  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 CC||dgp-m...@gmx.de,
   ||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org

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