[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113866] The option to print text in black, secretly also affects PDF export

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113866

Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |ASSIGNED
   Assignee|libreoffice-b...@lists.free |danielfaleirosi...@gmail.co
   |desktop.org |m

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113866] The option to print text in black, secretly also affects PDF export

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113866

--- Comment #15 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Design team's assessment was that users expect PDF export in full WYSIWYG and
not related to printing. Users rather see PDF as a kind of export filter. But
it's absolutely clear that code rules everything and compromises are okay.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113866] The option to print text in black, secretly also affects PDF export

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113866

Thorsten Behrens (CIB)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||t...@libreoffice.org

--- Comment #14 from Thorsten Behrens (CIB)  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #13)
> I would love to see that worked out in detail and discussed.

Yeah. There's considerable overlap conceptually between printing and pdf export
(i.e. using pretty much the same code path on Linux, with the CUPS pdf print
queue). There's also features in the PDF export one *cannot* get from OS-level
'print to PDF', e.g. working hyperlinks.

So on balance, I'd hesitate to chop off rendering options that affect both PDF
and print, if as in this case the option could simple be described better?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113866] The option to print text in black, secretly also affects PDF export

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113866

--- Comment #13 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #12)
> tl;dr: Please clean-up the PDF export from printing options.
> 
> We discussed this question in the design meeting. The user expectation is to
> export a document like it is shown (WYSIWYG), so the recommendation is to
> neither adopt the print options not to duplicate those. That means a red
> font is always exported in this color, even when print text in black is
> checked. If the user wants black text in the exported pdf, the supposed way
> is to use a tool/driver that supports print to pdf (available out of the box
> under Windows).

I would love to see that worked out in detail and discussed.
Since - as I can understand it now - it seems to break the known work flow that
I refer to in my comment #10.
& Also want to check if being dependent on an external tool, will not limit the
use of options that LibreOffice offers for PDF-export, in case the user wants
e.g. black.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113866] The option to print text in black, secretly also affects PDF export

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113866

Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||xiscofa...@libreoffice.org
   Assignee|danielfaleirosi...@gmail.co |libreoffice-b...@lists.free
   |m   |desktop.org

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113866] The option to print text in black, secretly also affects PDF export

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113866

Daniel Silva  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Assignee|libreoffice-b...@lists.free |danielfaleirosi...@gmail.co
   |desktop.org |m

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113866] The option to print text in black, secretly also affects PDF export

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113866

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |tietze.he...@gmail.com
   |.freedesktop.org|

--- Comment #12 from Heiko Tietze  ---
tl;dr: Please clean-up the PDF export from printing options.

We discussed this question in the design meeting. The user expectation is to
export a document like it is shown (WYSIWYG), so the recommendation is to
neither adopt the print options not to duplicate those. That means a red font
is always exported in this color, even when print text in black is checked. If
the user wants black text in the exported pdf, the supposed way is to use a
tool/driver that supports print to pdf (available out of the box under
Windows).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113866] The option to print text in black, secretly also affects PDF export

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113866

--- Comment #11 from xghost  ---
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #7)
> I disagree here:
> If I use "Export to PDF", then I expect, that the PDF looks like the
> document on screen.
> "Export to PDF" is no printing. Printing is always in regard to a special
> printer. But the resulting pdf-file can be printed to varies printers having
> different properties.
> "Export to PDF" is no printing, because it allows embedding the document,
> security settings, signatures and watermark.
> It is a setting in section "print". Such setting should not influence other
> exports. For example, if you select "Brochure" in the printer settings, I'm
> sure, you still want the pdf to have the normal page order.

I agree. I also understand Heiko Tietze's point about not wanting to duplicate
the Print settings/UI in the PDF export UI. It seems (to me) like a fundamental
part of the issue is that some have coupled two different concepts/ideas:

1. printing a document in a printer; and
2. exporting a document in one format X to another format Y

To me, printing implies an actual physical printer and physical paper whereas
exporting implies more of a transformation (i.e. format conversion). For
example, GIMP can "export" its .xsd files into other formats such as .png,
.jpeg, etc. and I think that makes sense. None of those involve printing a
document.


(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #6)
> the question is rather if users understand that exporting a PDF is printing. 
> I would say yes.

I disagree.

I think that was more of an unintended coincidence where it simply turned out
well and/or people figured it out in most cases, at least until a more obscure
issue like this one comes up, rather than it being an instance of actual
conscious understanding and awareness.

For example, I see the "Export to PDF" option more like a "Convert my current
document to a PDF file" and not as a "Print this document to a PDF". In other
words, I had always interpreted "export" as a synonym for "convert" or
"transform" rather than for "print", which tends to imply the use of an actual
physical printer.

Thus, when it became clear that the options meant for my printer were actually
affecting the options for my exports/conversions, it stood out as a very
awkward and unexpected thing. The idea of calling it "Print to PDF" I think
will blur an important, even if subtle, conceptual distinction and may cause
more problems than it solves.

I think the idea of printing and exporting should be decoupled more explicitly,
as they're (IMHO) two different/separate concepts that should not be thought of
as being one and the same thing. To me, that'd be similar to saying that a dog
and a cat are the same thing simply because they both have hair, 4 legs, and a
tail :)

In fact, this very issue caused me a *lot* of extra work during my MS Project
report, especially with code snippets that I had painstakingly highlighted with
different colors in the original document, but would always get rendered in
black in the PDF I was exporting it to... I had to spend a significant amount
of time/effort working around the issue by replacing all the code snippets in
the document for TextBox objects just to get the syntax highlighting to show up
correctly, among other details and issues I won't go into. Needless to say, it
was very frustrating.

I didn't report this at the time, because I didn't have time to go around
discussing things, and I think this will be the case for most people who do end
up running into this kind of situation.


(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #6)
> The alternative to duplicate all these options for PDF sounds much more 
> awkward to me. 

I agree. My comment there was more about getting the conversation going, rather
than seriously requesting that everything be duplicated. I'm more interested in
the conceptual distinction that leads users to expect certain specific and
different behaviors.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113866] The option to print text in black, secretly also affects PDF export

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113866

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Hardware|x86-64 (AMD64)  |All
Version|5.4.1.2 release |Inherited From OOo
 OS|Linux (All) |All

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113866] The option to print text in black, secretly also affects PDF export

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113866

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl
Summary|Print text in black option  |The option to print text in
   |secretly affects PDF export |black, secretly also
   ||affects PDF export

--- Comment #10 from Cor Nouws  ---
Mind that for the automatically inserted blank pages, we already have a
separate setting for printing and PDF eport

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