[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX

--- Comment #11 from Heiko Tietze  ---
The discussion has become silent here. The idea was to have a style "Emphasis"
that makes font _italic_ for text body (with regular font weight) and _regular_
when applied at a citation, for example, where the weight is italic. This
typesetting is common and required but a rare use case. And I doubt we can
implement it in a generic way. It would be three states: ignore - meaning keep
what is defined, set/on or unset/off, and toggle - meaning invert what is
defined on the parent. But how to toggle non-binary attributes or considering
bug 35538?

We have conditional PS, see
https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/swriter/01/05130100.html. I bet
the number of users are countable. Ultimately it's not a big deal to define two
styles and toggle manually the right one. Resolving WF, feel free to reopen.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

--- Comment #10 from ajlittoz  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #8)
> … But you lost me on the way from "toggle font
> attributes" to "multiple inheritance" (of paragraph and character style).
> 

Sorry for that. Comment #7 was a reply to Thomas Lendo's comment #6 as a
discussion on his note link to explain why the note seemed to me unrelated to
my proposal.

I apologise if it oriented the discussion on multiple inheritance (CSS-like)
rather than the dynamic relationship between paragraph and character styles at
time of application (rather than presently at time of definition within their
own hierachy)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

--- Comment #9 from Regina Henschel  ---
ODF and OOXML have a style hierarchy. HTML and XSL-FO use CSS and have an
element tree hierarchy. [I don't know about EPUB, which uses CSS too.]
Therefore ODF has e.g. to explicitly change the inheritance for the
fo:font-size attribute, which refers to CSS in XSL-FO. I think, that there
exists no general solution because of this different designs. But there might
be additions for individual properties. The percentage value of the font-size
is a candidate for an addition for me. But I can not tell right away which
construction would make sense.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

--- Comment #8 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Technically, you can nest character styles. Bug 115311 is on the agenda in
respect to a UI solution. But you lost me on the way from "toggle font
attributes" to "multiple inheritance" (of paragraph and character style).

(In reply to Kenneth Hanson from comment #4)
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think an extension will help.

I'm stuck at _toggle_ and you could introduce a function that checks whether
the selection is bold/italic/etc. and apply regular/etc. or vice versa.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

--- Comment #7 from ajlittoz  ---
(In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #6)
> Adding Regina to CC list. The only OASIS note that I could found for such or
> similar behavior is
> https://wiki.oasis-open.org/office/User-
> defined_character_and_paragraph_styles but that's from 2008 and probably
> outdated.

I don't think the note addresses the same topic. There, the proposer would like
to specify a named character style in paragraph style. I think it is already
implemented, but the other way round. The character properties in the paragraph
style are names "Default Style" among the character styles.

Reusing character properties in other paragraph styles is achieved with
inheritance (parent style hierarchy).

The only case where the proposal would bring a bonus is when you have a complex
style hierarchy which cannot be represented as a tree (multiple inheritance),
but I didn't ponder seriously on it to see if it makes sense in document style
organisation. I could not build at once of a practical use case. Perhaps copy
the character properties from two levels up, but this likely betrays a badly
designed hierarchy.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||rb.hensc...@t-online.de

--- Comment #6 from Thomas Lendo  ---
Adding Regina to CC list. The only OASIS note that I could found for such or
similar behavior is
https://wiki.oasis-open.org/office/User-defined_character_and_paragraph_styles
but that's from 2008 and probably outdated.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

--- Comment #5 from ajlittoz  ---
@Kenneth Hanson

I went through bug 108498 and it confirms that paragraph and character styles
are in their own hierarchies without links between each other.

>I suspect that what you want to do … probably isn't possible within the ODF 
>standard.

I haven't read ODF, so correct me if i'm wrong.

IMO, ODF describes how the stored file looks like so that conforming
implementation can read it and retrieve information from it to display as the
writer semantically intended.

A document processor adds an "ergonomics layer" over the standard so that an
average user can insert the XML elements with a few clicks or keyins without
knowing all what's happening in the backstage. The UI decouples file ODF
internals from user action to get document layout.

As long as you find a way to convert typographical concepts into a sequence of
XML primitives, even if contorted a bit, you don't need to change the standard.

For instance, when importing .doc or .docx documents, the import engine creates
many "anonymous" character styles to translate intra-paragraph formatting
because the concept does not exist in MS Office.

I'm wondering, for my case, if such a workaround could be possible, eventually
using mangled styles names to signal to LO Writer that the style has special
dynamic properties, e.g. adding some __ just like we have
_20_ to encode a space.

The idea is to make the special properties "transparent" or "neutral" if
document is opened with something different from LO Writer and fully processed
in an extended LO Writer.

In this strategy, the burden of handling the extra style properties is pushed
from ODF layer to LO Writer processing layer.

Tell me if that makes sense. I am fully aware that there is a considerable
distance from idea to implementation, though.

Also, I'm confident that ODF will evolve sooner or later (certainly rather
later) in the direction sketched, i.e. the possibility for character styles to
be context (paragraph) aware. "Toggling" is another issue because "toggle" is
difficult to define (what is "bold" for instance? You have many weights in a
single family. What is "italic"? You may have several slant angles.)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

--- Comment #4 from Kenneth Hanson  ---
@ajlittoz

I have also been thinking about and fighting with these sorts of problems. I
don't know off hand, but I suspect that what you want to do (both toggling
attributes and making attributes of character styles relative to the paragraph
style) probably isn't possible within the ODF standard.

If you look at bug 108498, for example, we determined that percentage font
sizes in a character style are based on the parent character style. There is no
way to have a percentage font size relative to the surrounding paragraph style
in ODF.

If this is true in the current case, then I doubt these features would be
considered by the developers regardless of UX concerns.

@Heiko Tietze

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think an extension will help. The (1st)
issue is not really about the simple act of toggling a particular property in
the interface (say, with an extra toolbar button), but changing how styles work
to support toggling of arbitrary properties. This sounds like a very ambitious
undertaking, and files created with such an extension wouldn't open properly
for anyone without the extension.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

--- Comment #3 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to ajlittoz from comment #2)
> Do you know of any workaround for the first part?

You can always write an extension that toggles a property. Wouldn't be too
hard, I guess. My WONTFIX opinion is for both claims, sorry  :-)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

--- Comment #2 from ajlittoz  ---
@Heiko Tietze: I think there is a misunderstanding on my proposal.

What I'd like to have is a way to set style attributes depending on the current
value in the parent style. Presently, you can only force values (either set or
cleared) or keep the parent ones (button "Standard").

When you want to "contrast" against the parent, you must know the parent value
to set it differently, leading to duplication of styles to be sure one is
available for the desired effect (e.g. italic in a roman paragraph or roman in
an italic paragraph).

This goes against ergonomics and induces manual editing when something is
changed in parent style. It's like applying direct formatting in a higher layer
of styling.

This is what you qualify as my "first" claim.

My second claim is related to my new "relative" attribute value and the mixture
between paragraph/character styles.

In the present Writer (ODF?) state, these style families are completely
separated: inheritance rules are internal to the family and define what will be
applied. That is, character styles attributes are set according to character
style ancestors, full stop, and are "stamped" over the basic paragraph
attributes.

I mentioned in the initial post that traditional typographic rules are rather
"relative" than "absolute" and that can't be translated in the
paragraph/character styles use because families are segregated.

So this is my second claim: if the first claim is implemented, there is a need
to indicate that the final attribute values in a character style (after
applying inheritance rules) are "relative" to those of the paragraph style.

I understand this implies a lot of work inside Writer and I'd be glad to read
the other ticket to see how it relates to mine.

>I vote to resolve this issue as WONTFIX.

It is not clear if this statement is against the whole proposal or against the
second part of it only.

Do you know of any workaround for the first part?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #1 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Seems you are talking about two topics. The first is the "complementary"
highlighting. Highlighting parts of the paragraph is done by character styles
with, for example, strong emphasis to make the selection bold. If you change
the paragraph style itself to bold your emphasis wouldn't work anymore. But I
disagree with a toggle feature, that's not how word processors work.
Furthermore it's a good idea to not modify the mother of styles if you use
different children. That brings me to the second topic, which is the
hierarchy/dependency. This topic is being discussed in another ticket; don't
find it right now. I vote to resolve this issue as WONTFIX.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

Dieter Praas  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115553] [ENHANCEMENT] Para/Char Styles in Writer: make possible to toggle font attributes

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115553

Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||107833, 108014


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107833
[Bug 107833] [META] Writer paragraph style bugs and enhancements
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108014
[Bug 108014] [META] Writer character style bugs and enhancements
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