[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 127170] The German documentation for time formats does not explain formatting differences of durations and wall clock time.
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127170 --- Comment #4 from Albrecht Müller --- (In reply to Eike Rathke from comment #3) > > This is a bit nasty as using both the [MM] and the M codes in one format > seems to trick out the type detection, i.e. after defining it the format at > ... I don't really care if this behaviour is a bug or not as this is a bug report against the documentation and not against a particular behaviour of Calc. The key problem here is that the help function does not specify how to deal with ambiguous format strings: Should Calc consider these strings as illegal and treat them as an error? Or should it use some default interpretation? How to deal with a situation where you want minutes values at position where Calc would interpret it as month value? What are the exact rules to resolve the ambiguities? I stumbled over this problem when I found your comment https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125099#c8 and tried to find out the difference between "[HH]" and "HH" in the context of duration and wall clock time. The help information https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/shared/01/05020301.html?DbPAR=SHARED#hd_id3155870 states that "HH" are between 00 and 23 while "[HH]" may deliver values above 23. It says nothing about durations or wall clock time, and nothing about possibly different rounding behaviour. I think this is a defect in the documentation - users cannot know the kind of difference you mention in your comment. Date/time calculations are tricky. A special problem is that these calculations normally use integral quantities of time units and therefore exact calculations are possible. Calc represents date/time values as float numbers. One day corresponds to the value of one. Hours, minutes and seconds correspond to values less than one. In general, points in time that correspond to a combination of integral numbers of hours, minutes and seconds have no exact representation as floating point values. Therefore date/time calculations usually contain round-off errors. Nevertheless all spreadsheet programs I used so far - including LibreOffice up to version 6.0.4.2 - delivered exact values when I did some simple date/time calculations. There is a defect in the help function as it does not specify how Calc is expected to handle date/time calculations, i.e. the behaviour of date/time calculations is undefined. A nasty consequence of this fact is a recent change the date/time calculation algorithm. This algorithm used to deliver a difference of one minute if you subtracted two timestamps that were one minute apart. The new algorithm returns essentially a random value which is 0 or 1 minute with about 50% probability each (see bug 127334) which breaks all legacy spreadsheets that contain this kind of calculations. As the user documentation does not specify a correct behaviour the behaviour of the new algorithm can be classified as "NOTABUG". -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 127170] The German documentation for time formats does not explain formatting differences of durations and wall clock time.
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127170 Eike Rathke changed: What|Removed |Added CC||er...@redhat.com --- Comment #3 from Eike Rathke --- (In reply to Albrecht Müller from comment #0) > I observed some quite strange > features of the time formatting mechanism, e.g. the time 23:57:00 gets > formatted to “1437” using the format string “[MM]” but to “Minutes: [57] > Month: 12” ( Version 6.0.4.2 (x64) on Windows) or to “Minutes: [12] Month: > 12” (Version 6.2.6.2 Ubuntu) by the format string “"Minutes: "[MM]" Month: > "M”. What is the correct interpretation of the format string parts “[MM]” or > “MM”? How does it depend on the context? This is a bit nasty as using both the [MM] and the M codes in one format seems to trick out the type detection, i.e. after defining it the format at the end is classified as Date format (see category where it's then assigned to). Now datetime formats do not know anything about duration hence the first MM is taken as a code for minute of time and the second M as a code for month, where the wall clock minute value is 57. Note that also the brackets around [MM] are displayed literally because in a datetime format they don't have a special meaning. Then as a consequence when saving the document the format is saved as Minutes: [ ] Month: which when loaded again results in the format code string "Minutes: ["MM"] Month: "M but then both the MM and the M denote a month keyword because there isn't an unquoted [MM]. This appears to be a bug (because in the file format there's the number:minutes element) but I think it's not easily solvable due to the ambiguity of MM. I doubt there's a difference between Linux and Windows, but you simply tried to load the saved document on the other platform, where it then behaves different as explained. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 127170] The German documentation for time formats does not explain formatting differences of durations and wall clock time.
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127170 Xisco Faulí changed: What|Removed |Added CC||olivier.hallot@libreoffice. ||org, ||xiscofa...@libreoffice.org Component|Calc|Documentation -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 127170] The German documentation for time formats does not explain formatting differences of durations and wall clock time.
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127170 --- Comment #2 from Albrecht Müller --- The documentation problem affects also the time functions (see following links) as their documenation contains no hints at the pecularities of date and time calculations (e.g. rounding behaviour, handling of inexact representation of time values, handling of leap seconds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_second etc.) either. https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/de/text/scalc/01/func_year.html?=CALC=WIN https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/de/text/scalc/01/func_month.html?=CALC=WIN https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/de/text/scalc/01/func_day.html?=CALC=WIN https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/de/text/scalc/01/func_hour.html?=CALC=WIN https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/de/text/scalc/01/func_minute.html?=CALC=WIN https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/de/text/scalc/01/func_second.html?=CALC=WIN The problem seems to be inherited from the English version: https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/scalc/01/func_year.html?=CALC=WIN https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/scalc/01/func_month.html?=CALC=WIN https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/scalc/01/func_day.html?=CALC=WIN https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/scalc/01/func_hour.html?=CALC=WIN https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/scalc/01/func_minute.html?=CALC=WIN https://help.libreoffice.org/6.3/en-US/text/scalc/01/func_second.html?=CALC=WIN Without a clear specification there is no "expected behaviour" of date/time calculations and results may vary considerably between different versions of Calc. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 127170] The German documentation for time formats does not explain formatting differences of durations and wall clock time.
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127170 Albrecht Müller changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12 ||7334 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 127170] The German documentation for time formats does not explain formatting differences of durations and wall clock time.
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127170 Albrecht Müller changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12 ||5099 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 127170] The German documentation for time formats does not explain formatting differences of durations and wall clock time.
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127170 Albrecht Müller changed: What|Removed |Added CC||albrecht.muel...@astrail.de --- Comment #1 from Albrecht Müller --- Created attachment 153670 --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=153670=edit The file contains a few examples of time calculation and formatting problems -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
