[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #16 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #15)
> Ácida is not underlined when the text is defined as Spanish, Säure not in
> case of German. Otherwise, ie. also for English, it's a spelling mistake.

So - no, Word does not behave as claimed in the Ask question. It works the same
way as Writer. And that is the correct way, using multiple dictionaries in
attempt to match a word in any of them is likely to create false negatives. The
"manual signalling is not typically part of the writing workflow when writing
in two languages that share a common script" is not a compelling argument, just
introduce that into the workflow. Writer is a tool to create texts; correct
spelling is crucial for good texts; behavior of tools where correct spelling is
not important (like when you tweet, where anything is tolerable) is not
something we should consider as guidance.

> Don't know where to check the installed dictionaries

When you mark a word as some language in Word (you likely select the word, then
click on the status bar's language indicator, then select the language in the
dialog), the dialog has languages with dictionaries marked with a (blue)
checkbox and "abc" - very much like in Writer's language lists.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #15 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Ácida is not underlined when the text is defined as Spanish, Säure not in case
of German. Otherwise, ie. also for English, it's a spelling mistake.

Don't know where to check the installed dictionaries, don't remember having any
installed. The preferences > spelling grammar list only Custom Dictionary. 

Locale is English (German), default language is None (applied when I paste
Ácida Säure).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #14 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #12)

Also could you please try with words that are less likely to appear in English
dictionaries?

I tried locally with Ácida Säure (acid), and they were underlined when marked
en-US (unlike Welt), while not underlined when marked Spanish (Spain) and
German (Germany) respectively.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #13 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #12)

It indeed is not that clear.
1. Are the respective dictionaries installed/available (Latin, German,
Spanish)?
2. Would a word in a Roman script, that definitely has a spelling error (not
present in any language) be underlined?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #12 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Created attachment 181718
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=181718=edit
Word on macOS

All text set to English, no warning on pseudo Latin, German, and Spanish but
Russian. Probably not a good example.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #11 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Tristan Miller from comment #9)

I read their posts.

*Possibly* RJD claims that. It would be interesting to learn if MS Word
actually does that on macOS, or if there's some OS-specific way of recognizing
text language. Note: I use Windows, so my knowledge of how Word behaves is
incomplete (limited to onw OS).

But Hilbert never claimed Word did that. They only claim that in LibreOffice,
spell check may simply *not* detect misspelled words - exactly the opposite to
what is the problem in this issue, where words get flagged when a wrong
dictionary is used on them. So the post of Hilbert is absolutely unrelated to
this issue, and only discusses some problems with configuring spell checkers.

Just to clarify a bit.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #10 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Tristan Miller from comment #9)
> Two users there (RJD and Hilbert) claim that Word does this.

They are wrong. I have Word; it will only use one dictionary for any given text
- the one that matches the language set to it (either manually, using e.g.
status bar language control over selected text), or implicitly - by honoring
the system input language (the same way we do in Writer on Windows).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #9 from Tristan Miller  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #8)
> > 2. Other word processors and text editors, such as Microsoft Word ...
> > are already able to do this
> 
> Wrong. MS Word does not do that AFAICT - is there an evidence it does (I
> mean, documentation) it does?


I don't use that software myself; my source is the Ask LibreOffice thread I
linked to.  Two users there (RJD and Hilbert) claim that Word does this.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #8 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Tristan Miller from comment #7)
> If I understand you correctly, both your proposed methods still require
> users to manually signal the change of language, an inconvenience that this
> feature request is explicitly meant to avoid.  (And as you yourself point
> out, such manual signalling is not typically part of the writing workflow
> when writing in two languages that share a common script.)

Yes.

> 1. The feature seems to be frequently requested, as in Bug 148571 and
> various Ask LibreOffice threads such as
>  document/19210/2>.

Indeed. Any user would love the software that has a magic button "do everything
I think about". It doesn't make it possible to create a reasonably making
mind-reading software.

> 2. Other word processors and text editors, such as Microsoft Word ...
> are already able to do this

Wrong. MS Word does not do that AFAICT - is there an evidence it does (I mean,
documentation) it does?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #7 from Tristan Miller  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #1)
> I disagree that we should allow marking text as multi-language. Instead, we
> should fix the existing problems in the use of the two methods described
> above, and create an extensive help how to use them properly.

If I understand you correctly, both your proposed methods still require users
to manually signal the change of language, an inconvenience that this feature
request is explicitly meant to avoid.  (And as you yourself point out, such
manual signalling is not typically part of the writing workflow when writing in
two languages that share a common script.)  There are at least a couple good
reasons to allow LibreOffice users to tag the same document or span of text
with multiple languages:

1. The feature seems to be frequently requested, as in Bug 148571 and various
Ask LibreOffice threads such as
.

2. Other word processors and text editors, such as Microsoft Word and Emacs,
are already able to do this, and according to the aforementioned reports,
people do seem to be using and appreciating this functionality.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

Tristan Miller  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||salig...@gmx.us

--- Comment #6 from Tristan Miller  ---
*** Bug 148571 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda
   |.freedesktop.org|tion.org

--- Comment #5 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to ariel18 from comment #4)
> So my question is, how do I add custom inflection patterns?

Isn't it a question to the hunspell community rather than a bug report or
enhancement request for LibreOffice? If not, please use ask.libreoffice.org for
questions. Would have to dig the web myself to find an answer.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #4 from arie...@trashmail.com ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #3)
> (In reply to ariel18 from comment #2)
> > Is it possible to set a user-defined...
> 
> Tools > Options > Language Settings > Writing Aids (or Options... in the
> spell checking dialog) allows to add a new dictionary, to edit, and to
> delete. 

Thank you, Heiko. I did find that setting for the .dic files, but I also wanted
to know about custom .aff files. 

In many Linux distros these will be under /usr/share/hunspell

They are the files that give permissible inflection types. They allow you to
say that if "dog" is a correctly-spelled word, so is "dogs" and "dog's" and
"dogs'". And if "Wort" is a word, so is "Wörter", and if "gehen" is a word, so
are "gehe", "gehst", "gegangen", and so on. The man page for hunspell describes
this in some detail (https://www.systutorials.com/docs/linux/man/4-hunspell/).

The custom dicts seem to use a different way of indicating inflections from the
default hunspell dicts (by analogy to other words, not by categories). This
means that if my custom words do not inflect just like an existing English
word, I have to add every inflected form individually to the custom
dictionaries.

So my question is, how do I add custom inflection patterns?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX
 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED

--- Comment #3 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to ariel18 from comment #2)
> Is it possible to set a user-defined...

Tools > Options > Language Settings > Writing Aids (or Options... in the spell
checking dialog) allows to add a new dictionary, to edit, and to delete. Should
be easy to check Yòu against MyGreek and Yóu against MyFrench.
Admitted, this task is not easy and perhaps you just ignore the words
eventually ;-)

Guess the original request has been answered. Resolving the ticket as WF, feel
free to reopen.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

--- Comment #2 from arie...@trashmail.com ---
Thank you, Mike Kaganski. I am on Linux with LO6 and did not know about that
system input language toggle. It sounds a much better suggestion than mine if
one is typing the document and not modifying an existing text. I assume that if
one uses >2 languages regularly one can cycle through them?

Conflation of styles and language seems odd, but I suppose I might be able to
use it in some contexts. Good to know, especially if style-nesting gets fixed.

To be honest, one of the biggest problems I have for non-English languages in
Latin script is diacritics. Sadly, Linux also doesn't seem to effectively
implement the ["compose" key](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key) (the
settings exist, in many places, but don't seem to work). If I have to write a
text about three people called Xaudaró, Yī and Zaćiragić, I can add them to the
user-defined dictionary and autocorrect, but when the diacritics distinguish
meanings (say, I am writing about 尤 Yóu, 右 Yòu, and 幽 Yōu, and also using the
English word "you"), this does not work. And if I want to inflect my
diacritic-laden words with a variety of non-English inflections I'm out of
luck. Even toggling through languages might get a bit tedious here, assuming
the languages are in LibreOffice.

Is it possible to set a user-defined .aff file, for inflections on user-defined
dictionary words where neither word nor inflection is in the existing languages
supported by LibreOffice? I'm only really wanting to inflect a few terms, but
if I keep adding them as I go I might eventually have a full dictionary.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138502] Spellchecker problems with multiple languages and custom languages

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138502

Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval

--- Comment #1 from Mike Kaganski  ---
In LibreOffice, there are two ways this is expected to work:

1. Use of styles.
   This method implies that you create styles (character and/or maybe
paragraph) which have required languages defined explicitly. The styles may be
assigned custom keyboard shortcuts for ease of use.
   This method works in any environment. However, until there's no UI for
nesting character styles (tdf#115311), it will not be useful, since there's no
way to make a text range have "language" character style *and* some other
character style (say, strong emphasis).

2. Taking system input language into account.
   This method uses the input language as reported by OS/environment, and
applies respective direct formatting to entered text automatically at each key
press. This feature depends on "Ignore system input language" setting in
Options->Language Settings->Languages (when the setting is unchecked, the
feature is active); it is active by default.
   This requires that user *changes* system input language correctly, though.
In locales where it's normal to switch keyboard layouts when switching
languages (e.g., when one uses a Cyrillic script and a Latin script: say,
Russian + English, which have different keyboard layouts, with no Latin
characters on Russian layout and vice versa), one *always* presses e.g.
Shift+Alt when switching the keyboard layout, and that additionally switches
the input language. That is in muscle memory of those users, and does not
impose problems. However, for users who write in two languages both using Latin
script, this is an unknown/unusual workflow; these users don't think about
switching something when start writing in a different language; they usually
don't know that they are able to have several system input modes (e.g., English
input language using en-US intl keyboard layout, and German language also using
en-US intl keyboard layout), which would enable them to facilitate that system
feature.
   This feature also depends on OS/environment support for this feature in LO.
It has always been supported on Windows. Until recently, it was not supported
on Linux (tdf#108151); it was implemented for Qt5 by Jan-Marek, which will be
in LO 7.2 (summer 2021). It is not (yet?) available for GTK and other backends.

I disagree that we should allow marking text as multi-language. Instead, we
should fix the existing problems in the use of the two methods described above,
and create an extensive help how to use them properly.

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