[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-06-07 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

Harald Berger  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Ever confirmed|0   |1
 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-06-07 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #19 from Harald Berger  ---
I can confirm the error

Version: 7.1.3.2 (x64) / LibreOffice Community
Build ID: 47f78053abe362b9384784d31a6e56f8511eb1c1
CPU threads: 8; OS: Windows 10.0 Build 19043; UI render: default; VCL: win
Locale: de-DE (de_DE); UI: de-DE
Calc: CL

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-05-09 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #18 from Tomasz Sztejka  ---
> But would you like to implement what you rightfully mention as missing? 

No. Sorry.

How could I do it if I do not know how it was DESIGNED to work? The only thing
I could do it would be to describe how it WORKS with all BUGS and
MISUNDERSTANDINGS INCLUDED.

It would just cause more mess and would cast in stone some possibly buggy
behavior. As a result I would put developers in a pinch - whenever they would
find a bug I did cast in stone and try to fix it they would be against
published , well known end user specification.

This is like Microsoft API. Whenever API is not specific enough coders do "try
it out". Since Microsoft is slow on responding and fixing, so this "tried out"
becomes after a year or ten "de-facto standard". And then when they finally fix
it to works as it was DESIGNED but never DESCRIBED to users thousands of
applications do break. Remember Sinclair? They almost went bankrupt because of
a bug fix in Spectrum+ since it broke "de-facto standard" they unintentionally
set.

This is also true for any other end user documentation. It must be consistent
with DESIGN even if implementation is buggy. Otherwise fixing implementation
will be confusing and annoy users.

Hmmm it was designed, wasn't it? Somebody wrote it down, right? At least in
source code comments? If I would have access to such specs I might try to do
put it in help. At least in Polish, because my English is... well... You read
it right?

I hope it's true otherwise I see a dark future for the LibreOffice.


Sorry for a delayed reaction, I have tons of work on my head and almost zero
spare time.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-04-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #17 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #16)
> which is exactly the misconception which caused this bug

Please ignore the "which caused this bug", it was a thinko (I was thinking
about a different bug - tdf#89477 - when wrote this).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-04-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #16 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Tomasz Sztejka from comment #15)

Thanks for the post!
Basically, I wanted to say that your post is not a contradiction to mine, but
rather a clarification of some points there. E.g., I write "... Users do not
realize what it does, and how could *what they really need* be achieved ..."
and "... users misused (misunderstood) the "to page" anchoring ...", and you
describe how *some* (minority of ;-P) users *could* discover that. I mostly
agree with you (well, except for "Object anchored to page stays in it's
relative position to page corner. This is in fact a bit problematic because it
is hard to guess to "which page corner". This, as far as I remember from an old
OpenOffice, used to work fine with manual page breaks, but now it seems to
ignore it what is confusing" - no, it worked this way from the beginning, e.g.
in OOo 1.0.3; and except for "if You add or remove a MANUAL PAGE BREAK. In my
opinion it should move then", which is exactly the misconception which caused
this bug).

But would you like to implement what you rightfully mention as missing? It's as
easy as:
1. Creating an account at TDF;
2. Logging in to https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/;
3. Browsing to "help" repository;
4. Creating a new change for it;
5. Opening the xhp file named like the related help page (e.g., for
https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/shared/01/05260100.html it would be
"text/shared/01/05260100.xhp");
making the required changes in plain text in the Web UI, and starting a review.

More on that at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation.

> Maybe it is a problem because it never worked as it should work?

Note that "work" is an ambiguous. In this discussion, it's important to
disambiguate the two aspects:
1. How anchored objects behave when layouting (i.e., how they behave when the
anchored-to object moves, when the anchor settings do not change);
2. How the anchoring UI behaves (i.e., how the tools work that define the
anchor settings).

And #1 generally works as it should. But #2 needs much improvements (my bugs
mentioned in comment 12, and largely your comment, are focused on this).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-04-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #15 from Tomasz Sztejka  ---
To comment #14

Maybe it is a problem because it never worked as it should work?

It seems, from links You have posted and my experience with users at work, that
most people expect that:

1.Object anchored to paragraph moves with paragraphs keeping a specified offset
from beginning of it. 

This works roughly as expected. They tap enter and image moves.

Except it is getting messy if You try to anchor image to a certain paragraph
which is NOT right above an image. Any attempt to move anchor moves an image
and any attempt to move image moves an anchor. Trying to arrange two or more
images aside of each other is a real pain. This is covered by what You kindly
pointed out (tdf#141161, tdf#141162) so nothing more needs to be said.

2.Object anchored to character moves together with a character.

This doesn't work at all as expected. Image does not keep offset from a
character as character moves. Behaves exactly as "to paragraph". And by looking
at Image->Properties->Type->Position it does what it is told to do. Be like "to
paragraph" with the only difference is where the anchor icon is shown. I can't
follow the idea behind it. 

I think that restriction of the set of possible selections in Position based on
anchor mode is done incorrectly and chaotic and unnecessarily removes some
possibilities. For an example if I do select ->To page and then ->To character
then a possible selection set is different if I do ->As character and then ->To
character. 

3.Object anchored as a character is just a custom letter. 

This works always in a consistent way. Great option for my job, where I need to
often use custom graphics to say: "press that key" in manuals I write.

4.Object anchored to page stays in it's relative position to page corner.

This is in fact a bit problematic because it is hard to guess to "which page
corner". This, as far as I remember from an old OpenOffice, used to work fine
with manual page breaks, but now it seems to ignore it what is confusing. 




In my opinion maybe the LibreOffice team rather than focusing on encouraging or
dis-encouraging use of certain options because we, users do not understand it,
should focus on making it right?

The obvious question is "what is right?"

The primary source we, users may look at is the HELP. So what is in there?

https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/shared/01/05260100.html?=WRITER=UNIX

and almost the same, but in more vague way is repeated at:

https://help.libreoffice.org/7.0/en-US/text/swriter/01/05060100.html?System=UNIX=WRITER=modules/swriter/ui/frmtypepage/width#bm_id3150761

(I do use 7.0 version, but a quick check on
https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/ shows no difference)

1.To paragraph:
"Anchors the selected item to the current paragraph.
The anchor icon is displayed at the left page margin at the beginning of the
paragraph."

No single word is said if it moves with text or not. Nothing. Null. Zero.

2.To character:
"Anchors the selected item to a character. This command is only available for
graphic objects"

followed by enigmatic:

"To align a graphic relative to the character that it is anchored to,
right-click the graphic, and then choose Properties. Click the Type tab, and in
the Position area, select Character in the to boxes."

No single word again how it moves when character moves. The enigmatic hint
however may enlighten some of us how we can achieve what we like. That is that
the "anchor" is just the "anchor icon" while the actual flow in text is
controlled by Image->Properties->Type where all possible tricks may be set. 

3.As character:
"Anchors the selected item as a character in the current text. If the height of
the selected item is greater than the current font size, the height of the line
containing the item is increased."

Again, no single word how the image should move if text is edited.

4.To page:
"Anchors the selected item to the current page.
The anchored item remains on the current page even if you insert or delete
text."

This option is, surprisingly most clearly explained. The image stays on page if
you add or delete TEXT. There is no single word about how it should behave if
You add or remove a MANUAL PAGE BREAK. In my opinion it should move then.




Sorry, guys, but I'm totally not surprised that people understand it
incorrectly because there is no much to understand. 




How I look at is the problem is NOT in users not understanding how do things
work, but in users NOT HAVING A WAY to find how it was meant to work.

Cleaning up and clarifying help is an important step which needs to be done.
Users can understand only that what is presented to them. LibreOffice is quite
well documented, in fact much better than many commercial software, but still
lacks tooltips in far too many places. As far as I can observe a good tooltip
is often a key to success. A context sensitive hinting system (check the status
line 

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-04-14 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89
   ||477

--- Comment #14 from Mike Kaganski  ---
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/201131/anchor-to-page/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/65057/photos-and-anchor-to-page/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/298444/how-do-i-anchor-text-to-a-page-in-a-document/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/198458/insert-page-and-move-images/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/86692/cant-anchor-image-in-header/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/174730/writer-anchor-images-to-centre-of-their-respective-cells-within-table/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/302665/how-to-insert-a-new-empty-page-without-a-page-break/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/290561/additional-page-with-heading/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/257728/text-frames-from-subdocument-doesnt-appear-in-master-document-solved/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/252226/cant-synchronize-logo-in-labels/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/225549/cant-get-rid-of-blank-pages-from-image-sub-documents-in-master-doc/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/246617/writer-how-to-insert-frames-from-subdocuments-into-a-master-document/

Those are the questions where users misused (misunderstood) the "to page"
anchoring, and had problems because of that. That is *quite common* problem,
and I now think that it was good move to remove the "to page" from the
prominent places.

What is missing is documenting this in release notes (with a link to FAQ), and
fix the help that refers to the removed UI parts.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-04-14 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||naoliv...@free.fr

--- Comment #13 from Mike Kaganski  ---
*** Bug 141686 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-04-07 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #12 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Tomasz Sztejka from comment #11)

I am not a fan of the removal (although possibly I'm the one to blame for
inspiration for the removal); yet, I do still believe that by far most of
real-life uses of To Page anchoring are misguided. Users do not realize what it
does, and how could *what they really need* be achieved [1]. They confuse this
*rarely needed* option for something different, and then have problems (there
are lots of questions e.g. on Ask related to that).

Also our anchoring and positioning has many shortcomings (tdf#141160,
tdf#141161, tdf#141162 could possibly make people lives easier, and make the
urge to use To Page anchoring less).

So this option is actually a power-user option... with a potential to confuse
most of not-so-power users (the majority). So despite, as said, I am not a fan
of the change implemented in tdf#135836, I see it in fact as a big opportunity
for people to educate themselves on the proper way of doing things...

(I agree that if it is done, it should be documented, and possibly advertised
with some explanation of the proper way of doing what created most confusion.)

> No sane person expects that cross format conversion is done perfectly

Heh, I rarely see statements that have so little in common with reality ;-P The
truth is the opposite (or alternatively, 99% users are insane - but I suppose
they are just not too tech-savvy).

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Faq/Writer/AnchoringAndPositioning

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-04-07 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #11 from Tomasz Sztejka  ---
1. The last time I checked "To Page" was still present IN HELP. If option was
removed or hidden it should be noted in HELP that it moved to an another place.

2. I was using it every time I needed to anchor large, 90% page sized image to
a page and never ever let it move when text flows around it.

Without it reverting to old school HTML solution: "put it in a table" is
necessary and it is a rather bad solution. In generic there was always a pain
when You had to place many LARGE images on page all anchored to same paragraph.
Adding hard page break without "to page" was only sometimes helpful. 

I must admit however that it was in a past and I'm doing that this way now
because it was proven to always work. Maybe other anchors do work good now, I
don't know. Yet just few hours ago I still have seen images anchored to same
paragraph getting one over another at any text edit, so I don't think it is a
case.

3. (see 135836) No sane person expects that cross format conversion is done
perfectly. It never is and never will be. This is why people do use different
formats: because they do things better in some specific cases. 

The statement  that Word can't do it can be also turned into a statement:
"Discourage fonts because Notepad can't do it". LibreOffice was far BETTER than
Word for many years. It should not try to step back. Blah... it should NOT even
try to follow anything what Word does. In my personal experience many changes
made in Word are counter-productive. Don't follow them.

4. Nobody I asked could find where this option is now (in some tabs in some
dialogs accessible from some context menu, ten clicks away). The user interface
is now inconsistent. If there is an "Anchor" menu it should be consistent in
terms of functionality across the entire application. Otherwise we have to
think... hmmm... is that Anchor sub-menu in context menu the same Anchor as in
toolbar? Maybe... maybe not. Or maybe we can try some other dialogs and options
to check if there is an another menu with exactly the same name but different
content? 

Geezzz... Try teaching somebody to use it.

5. Removing options which were there for Years is always a bad choice. Yes, I
know it was not removed. It was hidden in such a way so that You could not find
it. 

6. If we can agree that  the rationale that "To page" was incorrectly specified
or that the Word can't do it is right, then a proper way of fixing it is:

   a) make a clean specification and put in in HELP;

   b) make a motion for a DOCX to start supporting it.

Best regards,
  Tomasz Sztejka.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-03-26 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #10 from Roman Kuznetsov <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
(In reply to Xisco Faulí from comment #9)
> Anchor still can be changed to page from the properties dialog. It was
> removed from the context menu on purposed as discussed in bug 135836. My
> take: WONTFIX

Comparize number of action for anchor changing when you use the widget and when
you use the dialog. And then multiple it to number of images in a document.

I still want revert the patch

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-03-26 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||xiscofa...@libreoffice.org

--- Comment #9 from Xisco Faulí  ---
Anchor still can be changed to page from the properties dialog. It was removed
from the context menu on purposed as discussed in bug 135836. My take: WONTFIX

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-03-25 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

Roman Kuznetsov <79045_79...@mail.ru> changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|UNCONFIRMED
 Ever confirmed|1   |0

--- Comment #8 from Roman Kuznetsov <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
7.1 isn't an old version and nobody reverted bisected patch, so the problem
still here

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-03-25 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

Harshita Nag  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEEDINFO
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #7 from Harshita Nag  ---
Hello Roman Kuznetsov,

Thank you for reporting the bug.
it seems you're using an old version of LibreOffice.
Could you please try to reproduce it with the latest version of LibreOffice
from https://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/ ?
I have set the bug's status to 'NEEDINFO'. Please change it back to
'UNCONFIRMED' if the bug is still present in the latest version.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-03-18 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

Buovjaga  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||pasi...@gmail.com

--- Comment #6 from Buovjaga  ---
*** Bug 141091 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-03-17 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14
   ||1091

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-03-01 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #5 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Telesto from comment #4)
> About that, I have some trouble how to edit the anchor context menu...

True, you cannot change the Anchor group. But you can add the "Anchor To Page"
command into the Image context menu after this "Anchor >" submenu, for example.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-03-01 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #4 from Telesto  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #3)
> (In reply to Dave Barton from comment #2)
> > For more than 20 years millions of users...
> 
> The request was based on the fact that anchoring to page is discouraged thus
> hiding to option from the UI makes sense. You can easily customize it back
> into toolbars and context menus. My take on this ticket => NAB/WF

About that, I have some trouble how to edit the anchor context menu. Which is
obviously requirement.. I expected it would be, but I can't find it (or looking
at the wrong place)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-03-01 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13
   ||5829
 CC||mikekagan...@hotmail.com,
   ||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu

--- Comment #3 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Dave Barton from comment #2)
> For more than 20 years millions of users...

The request was based on the fact that anchoring to page is discouraged thus
hiding to option from the UI makes sense. You can easily customize it back into
toolbars and context menus. My take on this ticket => NAB/WF

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-02-28 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #2 from Dave Barton  ---
For more than 20 years millions of users saw no need to request the change made
in bug 135836. After all that time you pushed for something only you wanted.

I work with a lot of documents with inserted images and removing this anchoring
option creates more work and inconvenience for me.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-02-27 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

--- Comment #1 from Telesto  ---
The credits go to me: was more or less based on my experience and 
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135836#c5

Roman could please add a or multiple uses cases where 'To page' useful? 

And obviously the annoying argument you can modify the Context Menu/ toolbar if
you really need it.

There lots of pro and contra's here.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 140702] It disappeared "To page" item from Anchor drop-down widget on Frame toolbar in Writer

2021-02-27 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140702

Julien Nabet  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Summary|It dissapeared "To page"|It disappeared "To page"
   |item from Anchor drop-down  |item from Anchor drop-down
   |widget on Frame toolbar in  |widget on Frame toolbar in
   |Writer  |Writer

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