[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

--- Comment #19 from Khaled Hosny  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #18)
> (In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #17)
> 
> Khaled:
> 
> I agree with OP, that there *is* a problem here. Again: that's not the
> problem of rendering! There's nothing to Unicode bidirectional text
> algorithm. The user is able to manually create good-looking text if user
> performs some special actions; i.e., citing comment #0,
> 
> > Todays LibreOffice's solution is to add LRM and RLM chars in the correct 
> > place
> 
> Of course, text *rendering* should not place some formatting characters
> anywhere they aren't present in source. But the problem is not rendering, as
> already said multiple times; the problem is *input*, which should analyse
> the situation (current IME mode?) and insert those characters at input
> stage, when the string is created from keyboard. So, I suggest you to revert
> your decision to dismiss this, as UX-wise, this is a horrible bug actually.

There is no concrete proposal what should be done here. I don’t personally
think we should start inserting characters the user didn’t type, not invisible
ones at least. I don’t know any program that does that (regarding weak bidi
characters) apart from what said here about MS Word (and I don’t think this is
publicly specified anywhere, so we would be effectively reverse-engineering
it). Also I feel that whatever we do here is likely to have undesired
side-effects, if there were a robust way to handle this it would have made it
to UBA by now.

But anyway, that is my 2 qirsh, feel free to re-open the issue if you think
otherwise.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

--- Comment #18 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #17)

Khaled:

I agree with OP, that there *is* a problem here. Again: that's not the problem
of rendering! There's nothing to Unicode bidirectional text algorithm. The user
is able to manually create good-looking text if user performs some special
actions; i.e., citing comment #0,

> Todays LibreOffice's solution is to add LRM and RLM chars in the correct place

Of course, text *rendering* should not place some formatting characters
anywhere they aren't present in source. But the problem is not rendering, as
already said multiple times; the problem is *input*, which should analyse the
situation (current IME mode?) and insert those characters at input stage, when
the string is created from keyboard. So, I suggest you to revert your decision
to dismiss this, as UX-wise, this is a horrible bug actually.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

Khaled Hosny  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |NOTABUG

--- Comment #17 from Khaled Hosny  ---
This is not really a bug but the expected Unicode bidirectional text rendering.
The claim that MS Office handles this differently have not been supported with
evidence (it wouldn’t matter even, MS Office is known not be in full compliance
with Unicode Bidirectional Text Algorithm).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

Lior Kaplan  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|NEW
 Resolution|INSUFFICIENTDATA|---

--- Comment #16 from Lior Kaplan  ---
Still happens in 5.4.1.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

QA Administrators  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |INSUFFICIENTDATA

--- Comment #15 from QA Administrators  ---
Dear Bug Submitter,

Please read this message in its entirety before proceeding.

Your bug report is being closed as INSUFFICIENTDATA due to inactivity and
a lack of information which is needed in order to accurately
reproduce and confirm the problem. We encourage you to retest
your bug against the latest release. If the issue is still
present in the latest stable release, we need the following
information (please ignore any that you've already provided):

a) Provide details of your system including your operating
   system and the latest version of LibreOffice that you have
   confirmed the bug to be present

b) Provide easy to reproduce steps – the simpler the better

c) Provide any test case(s) which will help us confirm the problem

d) Provide screenshots of the problem if you think it might help

e) Read all comments and provide any requested information

Once all of this is done, please set the bug back to UNCONFIRMED
and we will attempt to reproduce the issue. Please do not:

a) respond via email 

b) update the version field in the bug or any of the other details
   on the top section of our bug tracker

Warm Regards,
QA Team

MassPing-NeedInfo-20170830

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

--- Comment #14 from QA Administrators  ---
Dear Bug Submitter,

This bug has been in NEEDINFO status with no change for at least
6 months. Please provide the requested information as soon as
possible and mark the bug as UNCONFIRMED. Due to regular bug
tracker maintenance, if the bug is still in NEEDINFO status with
no change in 30 days the QA team will close the bug as INSUFFICIENTDATA
due to lack of needed information.

For more information about our NEEDINFO policy please read the
wiki located here:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/Fields/Status/NEEDINFO

If you have already provided the requested information, please
mark the bug as UNCONFIRMED so that the QA team knows that the
bug is ready to be confirmed.

Thank you for helping us make LibreOffice even better for everyone!

Warm Regards,
QA Team

MassPing-NeedInfo-Ping-20170727

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

Khaled Hosny  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEEDINFO
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #13 from Khaled Hosny  ---
Screenshot of the MS Office rendering would be appreciated as well.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

--- Comment #12 from Khaled Hosny  ---
(In reply to amirimobile from comment #11) 
> Microsoft Word:
> - Base direction: LTR
> - Write text using strongly typed LTR characters
> - switch to RTL language
> - write text using strongly type RTL characters, mixed with various bracket
> types
> -> brackets keep their intended positions

Please attach a sample document.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

--- Comment #11 from amirimob...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #10)
> (In reply to amirimobile from comment #9)
> > I seriously don't see how this is resolved. There is a serious problem here:
> > Users get the _wrong_ results out of what they type. That means that this is
> > in fact a bug.
> 
> No it is not, that is how the Unicode Bidirectional Text Algorithm works,
> not ideal but that is why control characters exists; to asset the algorithm
> when there is ambiguity (which is the case here).

That's just it: The algorithm is not at all the point here. LibreOffice Writer
_is_. The algorithm specifies how to display bidirectional text. Writer is the
instrument to be used to write text. What we're saying here is that writing is
broken, not how the already-written text is displayed.

> 
> > Regarding "Using formatting characters is a perfectly fine way..." - if what
> > you mean by this is that users enter these formatting characters manually,
> > then it is definitely _not_ fine. This is a terrible nuisance to the few who
> > even know what these formatting characters are and how to input them, but
> > the vast majority of users are simply dumbfounded by the current behavior,
> > and this is something that does actually work in the popular (sorry) office
> > suite.
> 
> Please cite examples of this working differently elsewhere.

Microsoft Word:
- Base direction: LTR
- Write text using strongly typed LTR characters
- switch to RTL language
- write text using strongly type RTL characters, mixed with various bracket
types
-> brackets keep their intended positions

> 
> > All of this has of course already been mentioned by the OP of this bug, and
> > what has already been said (in subsequent comments) is that the Unicode BiDi
> > algorithm does not have to change, but libreoffice _does_.
> 
> So what are the requested changes, other than changing the algorithm?


Two possible solutions that I would consider have already been suggested by
Amir E. Aharoni 2013-03-07 11:36:10 UTC:

--- start quote ---
The really good way to resolve this is not to change the Unicode bidi
algorithm, but to add support for inline direction marking to the OpenDocument
standard and then implement it in LibreOffice. Put simply, HTML has  and , and OpenDocument only has something like , but not .

Using directionality marks like RLM, RLE and PDF is not a robust way to resolve
this, although if they are used internally and the user doesn't have to use
them directly, it's probably OK.
--- end quote ---

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

--- Comment #10 from Khaled Hosny  ---
(In reply to amirimobile from comment #9)
> I seriously don't see how this is resolved. There is a serious problem here:
> Users get the _wrong_ results out of what they type. That means that this is
> in fact a bug.

No it is not, that is how the Unicode Bidirectional Text Algorithm works, not
ideal but that is why control characters exists; to asset the algorithm when
there is ambiguity (which is the case here).

> Regarding "Using formatting characters is a perfectly fine way..." - if what
> you mean by this is that users enter these formatting characters manually,
> then it is definitely _not_ fine. This is a terrible nuisance to the few who
> even know what these formatting characters are and how to input them, but
> the vast majority of users are simply dumbfounded by the current behavior,
> and this is something that does actually work in the popular (sorry) office
> suite.

Please cite examples of this working differently elsewhere.

> All of this has of course already been mentioned by the OP of this bug, and
> what has already been said (in subsequent comments) is that the Unicode BiDi
> algorithm does not have to change, but libreoffice _does_.

So what are the requested changes, other than changing the algorithm?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

amirimob...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|UNCONFIRMED
 Resolution|NOTABUG |---
 Ever confirmed|1   |0

--- Comment #9 from amirimob...@gmail.com ---
I seriously don't see how this is resolved. There is a serious problem here:
Users get the _wrong_ results out of what they type. That means that this is in
fact a bug.

Regarding "Using formatting characters is a perfectly fine way..." - if what
you mean by this is that users enter these formatting characters manually, then
it is definitely _not_ fine. This is a terrible nuisance to the few who even
know what these formatting characters are and how to input them, but the vast
majority of users are simply dumbfounded by the current behavior, and this is
something that does actually work in the popular (sorry) office suite.

All of this has of course already been mentioned by the OP of this bug, and
what has already been said (in subsequent comments) is that the Unicode BiDi
algorithm does not have to change, but libreoffice _does_.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

Khaled Hosny  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 CC||khaledho...@eglug.org
 Resolution|--- |NOTABUG

--- Comment #8 from Khaled Hosny  ---
This is how the Unicode bidirectional text algorithm works, and the latest
versions of LibreOffice support the latest version of the algorithm which
handles bracket pairing. Using formatting characters is a perfectly fine way to
solve ambiguities that the algorithm can’t handle by automatically.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

Shimi Chen  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Version|3.6.2.2 release |Inherited From OOo

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

--- Comment #7 from Hanan Sela  ---
The bug is still reproducible in LO Version: 5.2.1.2
Build ID: 31dd62db80d4e60af04904455ec9c9219178d620
CPU Threads: 4; OS Version: Linux 4.2; UI Render: default; 
Locale: en-US (en_US.UTF-8); Calc: group

OS Ubuntu 15.10

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

--- Comment #6 from Ofir  ---
Still reproducible with:

Version: 5.2.1.2
Build ID: 1:5.2.1~rc2-0ubuntu1~xenial0
CPU Threads: 1; OS Version: Linux 4.4; UI Render: default; 
Locale: en-US (en_US.UTF-8); Calc: group

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

--- Comment #5 from QA Administrators  ---
** Please read this message in its entirety before responding **

To make sure we're focusing on the bugs that affect our users today,
LibreOffice QA is asking bug reporters and confirmers to retest open, confirmed
bugs which have not been touched for over a year.

There have been thousands of bug fixes and commits since anyone checked on this
bug report. During that time, it's possible that the bug has been fixed, or the
details of the problem have changed. We'd really appreciate your help in
getting confirmation that the bug is still present.

If you have time, please do the following:

Test to see if the bug is still present on a currently supported version of
LibreOffice 
(5.1.5 or 5.2.1  https://www.libreoffice.org/download/

If the bug is present, please leave a comment that includes the version of
LibreOffice and 
your operating system, and any changes you see in the bug behavior

If the bug is NOT present, please set the bug's Status field to
RESOLVED-WORKSFORME and leave 
a short comment that includes your version of LibreOffice and Operating System

Please DO NOT

Update the version field
Reply via email (please reply directly on the bug tracker)
Set the bug's Status field to RESOLVED - FIXED (this status has a particular
meaning that is not 
appropriate in this case)


If you want to do more to help you can test to see if your issue is a
REGRESSION. To do so:
1. Download and install oldest version of LibreOffice (usually 3.3 unless your
bug pertains to a feature added after 3.3)

http://downloadarchive.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/old/

2. Test your bug
3. Leave a comment with your results.
4a. If the bug was present with 3.3 - set version to "inherited from OOo";
4b. If the bug was not present in 3.3 - add "regression" to keyword


Feel free to come ask questions or to say hello in our QA chat:
http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=libreoffice-qa

Thank you for helping us make LibreOffice even better for everyone!

Warm Regards,
QA Team

MassPing-UntouchedBug-20160920

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

--- Comment #4 from Hanan Sela h...@013.net ---
The bug is still a problem in LO 4.4.2.2 on Ubuntu 14.04. The bug now is not
affecting the brackets in the middle of the line but at the end of the line the
brackets will not stay with the LTR word when the rest of the line is RTL. If
you insert no width no break formatting mark, the brackets stick to the first
letter but then the rest of the LTR word break at the end of the line.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

--- Comment #3 from QA Administrators qa-ad...@libreoffice.org ---
** Please read this message in its entirety before responding **

To make sure we're focusing on the bugs that affect our users today,
LibreOffice QA is asking bug reporters and confirmers to retest open, confirmed
bugs which have not been touched for over a year.

There have been thousands of bug fixes and commits since anyone checked on this
bug report. During that time, it's possible that the bug has been fixed, or the
details of the problem have changed. We'd really appreciate your help in
getting confirmation that the bug is still present.

If you have time, please do the following:

   *Test to see if the bug is still present on a currently supported version of
LibreOffice (4.4.1 or later)
   https://www.libreoffice.org/download/

   *If the bug is present, please leave a comment that includes the version of
LibreOffice and your operating system, and any changes you see in the bug
behavior

   *If the bug is NOT present, please set the bug's Status field to
RESOLVED-WORKSFORME and leave a short comment that includes your version of
LibreOffice and Operating System

Please DO NOT

   *Update the version field
   *Reply via email (please reply directly on the bug tracker)
   *Set the bug's Status field to RESOLVED - FIXED (this status has a
particular meaning that is not appropriate in this case)


If you want to do more to help you can test to see if your issue is a
REGRESSION. To do so: 

1. Download and install oldest version of LibreOffice (usually 3.3 unless your
bug pertains to a feature added after 3.3)

http://downloadarchive.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/old/

2. Test your bug 
3. Leave a comment with your results. 
4a. If the bug was present with 3.3 - set version to inherited from OOo; 
4b. If the bug was not present in 3.3 - add regression to keyword


Feel free to come ask questions or to say hello in our QA chat:
http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=libreoffice-qa

Thank you for your help!

-- The LibreOffice QA Team This NEW Message was generated on: 2015-04-18

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

Maxim momonas...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||h...@013.net

--- Comment #2 from Maxim momonas...@gmail.com ---
*** Bug 68092 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

Lior Kaplan kaplanl...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

  Attachment #75900|text/plain  |application/vnd.oasis.opend
  mime type||ocument.text

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

Lior Kaplan kaplanl...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Hardware|Other   |All
 CC||kaplanl...@gmail.com
 Blocks||43808

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 61795] Weak Characters (like brackets) are mispositioned with mixed RTL and LTR

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61795

Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #1 from Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il ---
The really good way to resolve this is not to change the Unicode bidi
algorithm, but to add support for inline direction marking to the OpenDocument
standard and then implement it in LibreOffice. Put simply, HTML has div
dir=rtl and span dir=rtl, and OpenDocument only has something like div
dir=rtl, but not span dir=rtl.

Using directionality marks like RLM, RLE and PDF is not a robust way to resolve
this, although if they are used internally and the user doesn't have to use
them directly, it's probably OK.

I tried to bring this issue up several times on the OpenDocument mailing list,
but didn't get any useful replies. See here:
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/201110/msg0.html

There may be some challenges with implementing this, but before discussing the
implementation challenges, it must be agreed to make the change in the standard
that LibreOffice is implementing.

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