[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #49 from John Mills --- Thank you Stuart for a reasoned response, It is relevant, because the Tabbed interface is functionally similar. If it is not why was it created? It is an approximation that uses a similar design metaphor. If you look at some of the sources that are linked to this bug request you will see that people are asking for this type of interface, or at least a choice in how they interact with LibreOffice from a UI perspective. You mention API compatibility and I am certainly not expert enough to disagree. However, there is a UI that ships in LibreOffice that many people do not know about and once informed choose to use because it is similar to the interface that greater than 90% of Office users interact with worldwide and has existed for 14 years now, once informed of the existence many believe that they are more productive than the current shipping interface and it suits their personal needs better. I think no one expects LibreOffice and Microsoft Office to be functionally and aesthetically identical. Having an interface that works similarly like Microsoft Office (tabbed) is not a sin, WPS, FreeOffice, OnlyOffice and Softmaker to only name four suites that have adopted similar user interfaces. With best regards -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #48 from V Stuart Foote --- (In reply to John Mills from comment #47) > > I assume Microsoft did spend some money on research on the acceptance of > > the ribbon or the start menu of "Windows 8'. They transition did have some > > bumps and there were some tweaks.. but the didn't go back to before. > > Microsoft spent a huge amount of time, money and effort when designing this > interface. I think you will see this if you watch a little of the design > philosophy that went in to this and the effort undertaken. It certainly > wasn't just thrown together. > And all of that is absolutely irrelevant as LibreOffice makes *no* use of the Ribbon framework API, which yes is a very rich library. In fact if anything from a UX perspective it is a very strong argument to *not* use the NB Tabbed UI as naive users expecting fully implemented API will be confused/disappointed with the functionality our Glade UI assemblages of UNO controls provide. I'd anticipate a flood of user requests for 'why doesn't it work like in MSO'... -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 117463] Create a Dialog that shows up on first boot of Writer/Calc/Impress for the user to pick its default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117463 --- Comment #29 from John Mills --- Hi jan d, Just on your statement: >For me it hinges a bit on who is the target group for LO. If it is people who >are about open source software: Options and showing community efforts are >great. > But if we assume we compete more with software for office workers who > otherwise use MSO or SoftMaker or WPS… Then I would go with the UX principle > of choosing a decent default options – since most people leave it as it is. The LibreOffice Next Decade manifesto: https://www.documentfoundation.org/assets/Documents/tdf-manifesto.pdf The very first point: WE COMMIT OURSELVES: 'To eliminate the digital divide in society by giving everyone access to office productivity tools free of charge to enable them to participate as full citizens in the 21st century' I don't see any other way that other than LibreOffice is targeted at typical users of office software. No where in that manifesto can I see it saying that this is targeted at open source 'activists' first. The wonderful thing about LibreOffice and FLOSS software in particular is that is a great equalizer. From the poorest to richest the our rights are the same. The document foundation provide a fantastic Office suite that respects user freedoms and empowers them. That is critical, anything that enables this and encourages more users to break away from proprietary software should be encouraged. I think a providing a user interface similar to what > 90% of users interact with can only be a positive step, it's a great starting point. Note also the first value rejected. 'The ownership of office productivity tools by monopoly suppliers which imposes a de-facto tax on global electronic free speech and penalises the economically disadvantaged.' LibreOffice competes for the poorest users against 'pirated' versions of Microsoft Office. When a user has no inclination that something free (libre/gratis)exists that respects them they become a prisoner. It is insidious. Anyway I apologise if off topic, but I just wanted to make clear who could benefit by this decision. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #47 from John Mills --- Hi Telesto, You make some very interesting points, I just wanted to pick up on one of them regarding the 'Ribbon' interface. > I assume Microsoft did spend some money on research on the acceptance of the > ribbon or the start menu of "Windows 8'. They transition did have some bumps > and there were some tweaks.. but the didn't go back to before. Microsoft spent a huge amount of time, money and effort when designing this interface. I think you will see this if you watch a little of the design philosophy that went in to this and the effort undertaken. It certainly wasn't just thrown together. https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/MIX/MIX08/UX09 I know it is fashionable in some segments of the FLOSS community to hate on Microsoft, I understand, embrace, extend and extinguish but what people can't do is call their Office suite garbage. It isn't. There is a reason why it is used by over 90% of Office users worldwide. It is good, very good. I encourage you to spend a little time, and anyone else reading this, just to watch a little and understand some of the thought and design process that went in to Microsoft Office 2007. I understand the objections to telemetry but look in that video just how useful it can be when making decisions. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #46 from Telesto --- (In reply to Caolán McNamara from comment #37) > I'd hate to see a dialog presented to the user on first start to pick their > user-interface, that just seems horrible, like that terrible "pick your > default browser as a feeble workaround for an anti-competitive ruling" > windows has/had. You’ve a point here. It's bit nagging. And not to decisive either. If you follow the masses, maybe they tabbed one by default. It might be people are used to re-configuring as the tabbed interface is forced on them quite often anyhow (go with the flow) However their is still they issue of all the environments where LibreOffice is running. Will this be a change across the board? Or Windows/MacOS only? Splitting it up can be itself seen as indecisive. It also will cause multiple screenshots flying around with different default interfaces. > I think there are too many "user interface" options. Leaving aside the > experimental options, we have in the user interface menu in the muffin > section "tabbed, tabbed compact, groupedbar compact, "contextual single" and > I have no real feeling for what the difference is between them all. It feels > indecisive, as if it's uncertain which one is the right design. IMO, pick > one, drop the others and then its a clearer decision as what the option > between current and proposed ui would entail. I agree. And most users tend to stick with the default (I assume). It are all variants of the same thing, IMHO. From QA perspective I prefer not to many options; probably the same is valid for documentation for example a11 Ideally the alternatives should be delivered as extension. Or if not possible buried in the theming dialog or even Expert configuration. This would allow backward comp-ability and there would be a test if people are actually missing those (if there are complains about where did they.. interface go) (In reply to Maxim Monastirsky from comment #41) > What I really missing from this discussion are *facts*. A major change like > this shouldn't be done without a serious study. We should collect feedback > from users who really tried to use the other UI variants on a daily basis, > and take a decision based on that. So arguments like "ribbon is the default > on windows, therefore we should use it too" don't count. When we set > something as default, we should be confident that at least it will allow > users to get their job done. Such a study is time consuming and expensive. And results will be hard to asses. I assume Microsoft did spend some money on research on the acceptance of the ribbon or the start menu of "Windows 8'. They transition did have some bumps and there were some tweaks.. but the didn't go back to before. There are people who love the Ribbon others hate it. I assume the competitors did make the decision to use the ‘ribbon’ on purpose. All of them made the ‘Ribbon’ default, with an option of a toolbar. Not that follow the herd necessary is the wise thing to do. OTOH, they toolbar aren’t gone either. It’s a few clicks away. The existing user base you can reach (in theory). I still love some kind of info bar which makes users aware of poll using the same system as the automatic update check. So they can participate once in a while. [But that’s only a thought of mine]. However such poll only reaches the existing user base. Still not the potential user base. Maybe the potentials ignore LibreOffice because it lacks a ‘ribbon’ interface (or because the experience isn't the ‘same’ thing). I personally find the current ‘tabbed’ edition aesthetically not that nice to look. And it doesn’t get better with theme. They issues already known should be fix upfront. Instead of pushing something which isn’t finished. Especially something so noticeable :-). Not that ever will be finished, can still be tweaked, need feedback (users) for that. Maybe enable it by default in Master and until 7.1 RC1 and decide at RC2/3 what to do based feedback/comments etc. (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #44 But actually we can collect (Tender'd 2015) disabled by default: Tools -> Options -> General 'Collect usage data and send it to The Document Foundation'; and I'm not asking folks to turn it on. I'm not really against telemetry (as such) if it helps improve LibreOffice. However 1) Telemetry shouldn’t start registering without explicit consent. As separated question. Not checked by default etc or buried along with other questions 2) I want a full disclosure which kind of data is collected (openness) 3) I want to be able to see what’s will be send in advance (openness) 4) I want a to be informed every time telemetry data will be exchanged (control). Being aware it happens 5) I want to see some kind of statistics derived for that data (results). 6) Some idea how it is can be used to improve things. And actually being used. Else it’s pointless exercise -- You are receiving
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #45 from andreas_k --- It was more a joke to offer two downloads but an discover LibreOffice hint for the different layout after the download page would be nice. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #44 from V Stuart Foote --- (In reply to andreas_k from comment #43) > Great Idea. As LibO has no telemetry data, let's release a LibreOffice > version with tabbed UI and see which one will be downloaded. ;-) But actually we can collect (Tender'd 2015) disabled by default: Tools -> Options -> General 'Collect usage data and send it to The Document Foundation'; and I'm not asking folks to turn it on. But that is a different issue. A split configuration release would be a logistical/infra nightmare. Just no... -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #43 from andreas_k --- (In reply to Dieter from comment #42) > (In reply to Maxim Monastirsky from comment #41) > > What I really missing from this discussion are *facts*. A major change like > > this shouldn't be done without a serious study. We should collect feedback > > from users who really tried to use the other UI variants on a daily basis, > > and take a decision based on that. > > +1 - I totally agree. Great Idea. As LibO has no telemetry data, let's release a LibreOffice version with tabbed UI and see which one will be downloaded. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #42 from Dieter --- (In reply to Maxim Monastirsky from comment #41) > What I really missing from this discussion are *facts*. A major change like > this shouldn't be done without a serious study. We should collect feedback > from users who really tried to use the other UI variants on a daily basis, > and take a decision based on that. +1 - I totally agree. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 Maxim Monastirsky changed: What|Removed |Added CC|momonas...@gmail.com| --- Comment #41 from Maxim Monastirsky --- (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #33) > @Maxim, hey so did Sumit's GSOC 2019 work bring the NB customization far > enough for use as a default UI? Currently customization is very basic: Just show/hide individual items; still no way to add other commands. And there are serious problems caused by the fact that the customization is stored in the user profile using the glade ui format, see comments in Bug 132797 and Bug 135495. But I don't think that a working customization should be a blocker for some UI to become the default. What I really missing from this discussion are *facts*. A major change like this shouldn't be done without a serious study. We should collect feedback from users who really tried to use the other UI variants on a daily basis, and take a decision based on that. So arguments like "ribbon is the default on windows, therefore we should use it too" don't count. When we set something as default, we should be confident that at least it will allow users to get their job done. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #40 from andreas_k --- https://www.collaboraoffice.com/press-releases/collabora-office-6-4-released/ Colabora office show in there 6.4 announcement 6 schreenshots. One use the standard toolbars layout. Even marketing like diversity. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #39 from andreas_k --- I have some questions 1. Why Szymon Work on notebookbar implementation? What was the goal? 2. What is the best workflow for an office suite? Menubar + toolbars, tabbed bars, sidebar? 3. Why LibO development toolbars, sidebars, tabbed bars, ... But didn't change layout since 2 decades? 4. Why people say LibO is outdated? 5. MSO change from menubar + toolbars to menubar + ribbons to ribbons to simply died ribbons and the previews show something context related toolbars + search LibreOffice is a community project where different members do different stuff. Out users are also individuals for me the diversity in the project is one big difference compare to unified MSO. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #38 from Luke Kendall --- Being buried inside the UI and only reachable/discoverable via "from Main menu's View -> User Interface, and additional 'Experimental' MUFFIN are exposed when the Tools -> Options -> Advanced 'Enable experimental features' checkbox is enabled." is kind of the opposite of what I was proposing. I proposed making the UI style a visible indicator and widget on the UI so it is always visible: so the user can easily see what it is currently set to, and choose between alternatives. If it's hidden away then you have all sorts of negative user experiences and consequences of changing it, or changing the default. I also believe there's a big difference in choosing a new default for fresh LO installations (new users) and changing the UI style for an existing LO user. E.g. the Unity UI of Ubuntu may not have turned into the big argument it did if there had been an easy way for users to try it out at their choice: to switch back and forth at any time. I also hold the strongly opposing view to comment 37. The idea that one UI is the best choice for everyone, or that one person can choose between UI alternatives, ignores the fact that there is usually a wide range of contexts that users operate in and backgrounds they come from, as well as hand-eye-coordination, workflows, and so on. So I strongly feel that choice offers flexibility and configurability, and does not need to be a mark of indecision (although it CAN be, that's true). I'll say no more. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #37 from Caolán McNamara --- I'd hate to see a dialog presented to the user on first start to pick their user-interface, that just seems horrible, like that terrible "pick your default browser as a feeble workaround for an anti-competitive ruling" windows has/had. I think there are too many "user interface" options. Leaving aside the experimental options, we have in the user interface menu in the muffin section "tabbed, tabbed compact, groupedbar compact, "contextual single" and I have no real feeling for what the difference is between them all. It feels indecisive, as if it's uncertain which one is the right design. IMO, pick one, drop the others and then its a clearer decision as what the option between current and proposed ui would entail. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 117463] Create a Dialog that shows up on first boot of Writer/Calc/Impress for the user to pick its default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117463 --- Comment #28 from jan d --- For me it hinges a bit on who is the target group for LO. If it is people who are about open source software: Options and showing community efforts are great. But if we assume we compete more with software for office workers who otherwise use MSO or SoftMaker or WPS… Then I would go with the UX principle of choosing a decent default options – since most people leave it as it is. If we decide that we need a selection, it should make clear what you get with each option. SoftMakers select dialog is rather helpful here, as it shows two screenshots for the menu and the ribbon-style UI, making the actions and its results follow a principle of least surprise. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #36 from V Stuart Foote --- (In reply to Luke Kendall from comment #35) > - I'd like to propose a new UI element that makes the UI choice visible the > user. Thanks for posting, but already in place in the UI from Main menu's View -> User Interface, and additional 'Experimental' MUFFIN are exposed when the Tools -> Options -> Advanced 'Enable experimental features' checkbox is enabled. This issue is about what becomes the default. Specifics of additional UI for setting/selecting alternate UIs, and when, are in see also bug 117463 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #35 from Luke Kendall --- - I'd like to propose a new UI element that makes the UI choice visible the user. E.g. a short coloured bar with the name of the UI style, which they can click on to see the list of available UI styles and choose between them. - A one-off choice during installation or startup isn't as good as that because the user may not be aware of what choice they're making at that point, and may not know how to alter that choice after that. - I wasn't aware there were different UI styles to select between. If the UI suddenly changed to a different style, without my choice, I would be annoyed. Being able to easily switch between UI styles would remove that annoyance. - Being able to easily see that there were different styles and switch between them to try them out would encourage me to experiment. - Accidentally clicking on something that changed the whole UI when I wasn't expecting it would make me panic and try to work out how to undo whatever it was I'd accidentally done. - I'd like to observe that making features discoverable is a good thing. - I suggest that for people updating from an already-installed version to a new one, keeping the UI setting to the same as they had is best - especially if they can be told that other options are available for them to try out. - For people who are installing LO for the first time, I think you're on safer ground to install a UI of a new style that you wish to promote (because you think it's better). - As for treating MS Office UI as the gold standard, I have a lot of experience in UX and UI design and creation, and when they introduced the Ribbon there was a lot of deserved push back. Even after using it for years, I couldn't see any real improvement it brought. However, with years of use it does become more familiar. - Having learned from this bug report that alternative UIs exist, it seems a strong UI/UX feature and you could consider making that fact more discoverable through the UI and easier for users to try out and experiment with, which brings me back to my very first point. (That's my two cents.) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #34 from andreas_k --- (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #33) > @Samuel, I know Thorsten is leaning in favor--but what do you believe as to > fitness of any of the NB to become default UI. And, if default were to be > moved onto NB then how much remains to be done with the framework? In general there was only Szymon and GSOC Student Sumit how worked on the notebookbar codebase. Which is a big issue cause there is no wide code knowledge (I think). > @Maxim, hey so did Sumit's GSOC 2019 work bring the NB customization far > enough for use as a default UI? NB customization is ok but there is bug 132797 which blog my work to finish customization. > And, are we there yet for instrumenting the NB for a11y? Seems not, bug > 109425 and bug 107343 are blocking a11y of the NB implementations. a11y and keyboard navigation and partly extension support are open issues. Notebookbar implementations are not available for - Chart - Master document - other sw modules excl. writer - formular - base Another issue someone has to care about new features (uno commands) which has to be added to the different NB layouts. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 V Stuart Foote changed: What|Removed |Added CC||momonas...@gmail.com, ||s.mehrbr...@gmail.com --- Comment #33 from V Stuart Foote --- @Samuel, I know Thorsten is leaning in favor--but what do you believe as to fitness of any of the NB to become default UI. And, if default were to be moved onto NB then how much remains to be done with the framework? @Maxim, hey so did Sumit's GSOC 2019 work bring the NB customization far enough for use as a default UI? And, are we there yet for instrumenting the NB for a11y? Seems not, bug 109425 and bug 107343 are blocking a11y of the NB implementations. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #32 from Timur --- I'm for options, to let user choose, inform in 1st Tip of the Day. Plus in installer. MSO is not a good example to me, rather WPS which has (if I recall well) also tip to choose. Not to remove any UI, please stop with that here. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 117463] Create a Dialog that shows up on first boot of Writer/Calc/Impress for the user to pick its default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117463 V Stuart Foote changed: What|Removed |Added Blocks||80430 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists ||.freedesktop.org Keywords||needsUXEval --- Comment #27 from V Stuart Foote --- Grudgingly I recast position to +1, as alternative to changing default UI from 'Toolbar, Menu & Dialog' to one of the GLADE based MUFFIN Notebook Bar assemblages. As noted, the picker dialog per module would likely be light on detail--i.e. TotD. Interested to see what Hieko mocks up. But the heavy lifting on MUFFIN Notebook Bar documentation remains to be done. Referenced Bugs: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80430 [Bug 80430] [META] Documentation gap for new features -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135433] Add support for "TK" keyword for content writing
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135433 --- Comment #7 from L Duperval --- Hi, I've been dealing with a lot of unexpected situations so I haven't tried it yet. I promise to look at this today and let you know. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #31 from Telesto --- (In reply to andreas_k from comment #30) > This is the bug report for Change the default UI! Bug report for the Dialog > is BUG 117463. > > -1 for Change the default UI on any operation system. >1 for Change the default UI on any operation system. > > Reason is, that we have different icons, different vcl backends, different > UI's, ... on different Systems, ... Way to much work for support, > documentation, ... > > An dialog where the user can choose is fine for me cause than you can inform > the user that other UI's are not supportet by documentation, ... Fully agree with Andreas Arguments for a dialog instead of changing the default as such * There is no good or false here; it's a preference. And switching things doesn't solve the issue. People will ask here has the toolbar gone? Similar to the people who can't find the tabbed interface. * Different vcl backends, different, UI's, ... on different Systems * Documentation * Temporary argument aesthetics; tabbed for must be tweaked a bit to look nice. Common comments: LibreOffice has a 90's look or people don't have feeling for design. About number of interfaces. Choice is a bit overwhelming; and without preview even harder to grasp. Or there must be dialog which gives a preview of all the options. Which can be accessed manually and is launched automatically at the start if no profile is present. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135472] Russian Text Language changes to Dutch with Russian locale setting because of system input language
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135472 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Resolution|--- |NOTABUG Keywords|needsUXEval | CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda |.freedesktop.org|tion.org Status|NEW |RESOLVED --- Comment #6 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Eike Rathke from comment #4) > On systems that do support switching input languages (e.g. by hotkeys or > input methods) the user expects the writing language to follow the input > language. That's a very strong argument for keeping the default. => NAB -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #30 from andreas_k --- This is the bug report for Change the default UI! Bug report for the Dialog is BUG 117463. -1 for Change the default UI on any operation system. +1 for an start dialog (BUG 117463). Reason is, that we have different icons, different vcl backends, different UI's, ... on different Systems, ... Way to much work for support, documentation, ... An dialog where the user can choose is fine for me cause than you can inform the user that other UI's are not supportet by documentation, ... -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 44448] Option to auto-update Table of Contents, or question offered to do so at printing, is desirable
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Keywords|needsDevEval, needsUXEval | CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda |.freedesktop.org|tion.org --- Comment #33 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #32) > Is this change really desperately needed? Importance is high... Given the number of duplicates and people on CC it is a highly expected feature. So my take: keep it high. (It was questioned whether enhancement can have a high importance at all. It makes a lot of sense to me and I like the clear rules to set it.) Skimming through the comments it looks like automatic update is welcome, even without an option to switch it off. Rizal is right, OTOH, the option wouldn't clutter too much and fits well into the current dialog. Muhammet, as you were interested in this topic, could you please add a code pointer? Shouldn't be too difficult. Don't see the need for deveval, removing the keyword. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135433] Add support for "TK" keyword for content writing
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135433 --- Comment #6 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #5) > Macro to insert image page margin Nice solution, could be finalized and submitted to the extension site. Not responding to a keyword though. Should we resolve as WF, L., and realize the feature per extension? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #29 from Pedro --- (In reply to Thorsten Behrens (CIB) from comment #25) > (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #24) > > > > Caolan, Thorsten: What do you think about default and selection of MUFFIN? > > As said during ESC - generally in favour. Also siding with Caolan, that then > we'd want to limit the number of choices to perhaps 2 or 3 max (classic UI, > and one or two notebookbar flavours). > > How to make this least disruptive for existing users, and at the same time > keep help, documentation etc ~up to date is predominantly a UX decision > (perhaps with project-wide input). > > But broadly, the reason why the project implemented the notebookbar, is to > eventually have it as the 1st tier UI. ;) Since there seems to have been some discussion about this in the ESC meeting about this I would like to remark that 2 or 3 max UIs do not showcase the flexibility of LibO, which is one of the stronger points I would suggest that at least 4 UIs are presented. I would propose to remove from the old toolbar layouts the Single toolbar layout. >From the Notebookbar layouts I would remove the contextual layouts, and if necessary the Compact layouts. However, I think the Compact layouts are awesome, so I would keep them and increase UI choice to 6 layouts. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #28 from John Mills --- @ Telesto : I realise point (1) and (2) are not related to this discussion, I simply copied the whole of the forum posting so an not to be accused of bias. I think it inappropriate to only copy small sections of a comment. Clearly point (3) is the relevant point for this discussion. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135336] LIST STYLES: formatting is not being consistently applied to paragraphs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135336 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Resolution|--- |NOTABUG Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #27 from Telesto --- Off-topic @Jokhn Mills (In reply to John Mills from comment #26) > (2) There is still some compatibility stuff when saving as docx. When saving > as docx and converting that to PDF, I had a terrible issue last night where > the spacing of my footnotes was way off. If I saved as ODT, that issue went > away. -> There is a bugreport for this? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #26 from John Mills --- I agree with Thorsten here, I see this as an issue of benefit vs loss. Does changing the default UI benefit LibreOffice in the longer term by bringing new users to the software and hopefully contributors to the project? Yes / No If No stop here If Yes then proceed, but please choose something that would have the maximum benefit to the widest possible audience. I draw attention to one of the latest comments in the forum Thread that Heiko linked to earlier: ## xxPoLyGLoTxx 1 point · 19 hours ago A few things: (1) The speed of LO is significantly better now. It's way snappier than before. (2) There is still some compatibility stuff when saving as docx. When saving as docx and converting that to PDF, I had a terrible issue last night where the spacing of my footnotes was way off. If I saved as ODT, that issue went away. (3) The tabbed layout should be the default. Or like someone else said, have a brief setup wizard on the first run to let people choose. I had no idea it even existed and its WAY more intuitive and similar to MS Office layout. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #25 from Thorsten Behrens (CIB) --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #24) > > Caolan, Thorsten: What do you think about default and selection of MUFFIN? As said during ESC - generally in favour. Also siding with Caolan, that then we'd want to limit the number of choices to perhaps 2 or 3 max (classic UI, and one or two notebookbar flavours). How to make this least disruptive for existing users, and at the same time keep help, documentation etc ~up to date is predominantly a UX decision (perhaps with project-wide input). But broadly, the reason why the project implemented the notebookbar, is to eventually have it as the 1st tier UI. ;) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135336] LIST STYLES: formatting is not being consistently applied to paragraphs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135336 --- Comment #5 from R. Green --- Paragraph 17.20, part 3, solves the problem. List style indents prevail as long as NO manual changes have been made to the corresponding paragraph style indents. Any manual change to paragraph style indents, even a return to zero, overrides the corresponding List style indents. Pressing "Standard", apparently, resets the "Indents and Spacing" tab to the default settings which allows the LIST styles to take precedence. This issue can be closed, thanks. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Ever confirmed|0 |1 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW CC||caol...@redhat.com, ||t...@libreoffice.org --- Comment #24 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Telesto from comment #13) > @Heiko > > I disagree with the dialog on first start > Please explain why? That's off-topic here, let's discuss on bug 117463. Caolan, Thorsten: What do you think about default and selection of MUFFIN? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #23 from andreas_k --- Instead of the discussion about standard toolbar, tabbed toolbar, ... I would go with contextual single layout as default an an dialog on startup. The reason everybody say LibO is not modern is, cause it's very conservativ. Compare to MSO LibO never change there layout and MSO will change twice. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #22 from andreas_k --- > That's an interesting question, as you say a lot of effort has gone in to > this work and it is a shame if that was lost. Would it make sense that > experimental UIs become extensions until deemed to be stable? I think it > doesn't make sense to show something that is not considered production > ready. Also if you have a selection with anymore choices than 3 or 4 it will > just become confusing for the end user. That's the reason because they are in experimental. Cause all UI's out of experimental are consistent in all apps. In the past it wasn't possible to offer notebookbar files as extension. Maybe it's now possible. I have to check. But in general I don't care and there will be no other outcome of this discussion. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #21 from John Mills --- > There was a lot of work for each UI variants. They sould be NOT removed. > If still experimental we don't show them in first UI picker, only when > Experimental is checked in Options. That's an interesting question, as you say a lot of effort has gone in to this work and it is a shame if that was lost. Would it make sense that experimental UIs become extensions until deemed to be stable? I think it doesn't make sense to show something that is not considered production ready. Also if you have a selection with anymore choices than 3 or 4 it will just become confusing for the end user. If I 'understand' the feelings above it would appear to me that there is more agreement for the Tabbed choice from the notebook interface as that would prove to be the most beneficial for users familiar with the Microsoft Office users interface. My personal opinion would be to switch to this as the default (certainly on Windows)and make it super easy for people to switch back to the standard interface if the end user is not happy with their choice. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
