[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 Status|NEW |ASSIGNED
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |rayk...@gmail.com
   |.freedesktop.org|
   Assignee|libreoffice-b...@lists.free |tietze.he...@gmail.com
   |desktop.org |

--- Comment #33 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to Martin Srebotnjak from comment #32)
> Hi, are these style names localizable, as they should be?
> Namely, I cannot find them in today generated pot files of master...

So we likely need to add the new table styles here[1] and also place them
here[2].

[1] https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sw/inc/strings.hrc#214
[2]
https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sw/source/core/doc/DocumentStylePoolManager.cxx#519

Jim: do we need to replace these strings as well?

https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/include/svx/strings.hrc#643
https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sw/source/core/doc/SwStyleNameMapper.cxx#305

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #32 from Martin Srebotnjak  ---
Hi, are these style names localizable, as they should be?
Namely, I cannot find them in today generated pot files of master...

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #31 from Commit Notification 
 ---
heiko tietze committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=a5af0fd9f27af42cf2e8571f659cdad6e606215b

tdf#101349 Default table styles

It will be available in 6.0.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Attachment #137467|0   |1
is obsolete||

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #30 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Heiko Tietze committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=22a95ea367cc005a382de23e51cba850b6dd5e6f

Revert "tdf#101349 Default table styles"

It will be available in 6.0.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #29 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Created attachment 137467
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=137467=edit
Table styles in nightly build

Picture or it didn't happen...

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #28 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #27)
> Is something wrong with the patch?

Works like a charm, at least on Linux.

Version: 6.0.0.0.alpha1+
Build ID: 1f8c3e3b78e0abb96d06a51eca354ae7ade5deb2
CPU threads: 8; OS: Linux 4.13; UI render: default; VCL: kde4; 
TinderBox: Linux-rpm_deb-x86_64@70-TDF, Branch:master, Time:
2017-11-01_22:57:04
Locale: en-US (en_US.UTF-8); Calc: group

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Commit Notification  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Whiteboard||target:6.0.0

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #26 from Commit Notification 
 ---
heiko tietze committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=f8a754e49cac05c356abddb3d22d03874f1bec7d

tdf#101349 Default table styles

It will be available in 6.0.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||107606


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107606
[Bug 107606] New kind of table styles should not use fonts "Thorndale" and
"Andale Sans UI"
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #25 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to andreas_k from comment #24)
> Created attachment 133229 [details]
> Overview how the Andreas_Styles will look like

1.3 Bill layout: Right align all columns perhaps?
1.3 Data analytic layout: the alternating grays are too different to my taste
2.1 and 2.2 have contrast issues, e.g. either darker yellow or black font color

There are numerous resources like
http://www.colorsontheweb.com/Color-Theory/Color-Contrast and contrast checkers
http://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/

2.1 Green lines? Don't see a purpose for that despite from how attractive it is
2.2 IMHO we should deliver not more than four different colors

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #24 from andreas_k  ---
Created attachment 133229
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133229=edit
Overview how the Andreas_Styles will look like

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #23 from andreas_k  ---
Created attachment 133228
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133228=edit
Table style update

I made a table style for
- List Style in black and colored
- Box Style in black and colored
- Grid Style in black
- Bill Layout
- Statistic layout
- Data analytic layout
- Newspaper Layout

The first 3 Styles will work for a config dialog like in Impress. I also show
how the table will look like at different (not all) settings.

and some additional stuff like how to find the best border width, ...

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #22 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
Created attachment 133062
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133062=edit
element variants of ms word 2010 table styles

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #21 from andreas_k  ---
I don't want to separate the table style layout widget.

It's more about there should be some styles for print output and for screen
output, and I also understood that we should waite for the survey result. In
addition there are some examples that will fit the print and screen output very
well.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #20 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to andreas_k from comment #19)
> I'd like to separate the table styles into two areas

While the paragraph styles provides an hierarchical organization we do not have
it for other types. And actually going with only two top-level categories
(print and screen) makes not much sense to me. 
On the other hand I fully agree with a couple of _plain_ styles. But in the end
it's up to the user to choose the right one and to layout the document. Table
styles are not capable to align depending on the content (numbers, text,
currency...), you would have to provide different variants, which is awkward
IMHO. Table style can define padding but not the column/table width and row
height. Check out
https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2015/12/13/style-your-tables/

And finally I would wait for the outcome of the survey. We want to keep the
community involved rather than design by committee. That doesn't mean that the
likely high-rated "Scientific" style cannot be refined or supplemented later.
But if the users down-vote "3D", for instance, we shouldn't invest much in this
variant.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #19 from andreas_k  ---
I'd like to separate the table styles into two areas

1. Printout documents
-
if you have a look at printed tables the best styled tables you will find in
LaTeX and I found two documents why LaTeX produce nice tables [1] [2]:
- never use vertical lines
- avoid "boxing up" cells, usually 3 horizontal lines are enough (above, below
and after heading)
- avoid double lines
- enough space between rows
- if in doubt, align left

2. screen documents
---
This type of documents are styled for the screen OR for high-quality press
documents. Therefor I'd like to look to webdesign and annual reports.
Here are some rules for webdesigners [3]:
- Tables love space. Set the width of tables carefully, according to the
content. If you don’t know the perfect width, simply set the width of the table
to 100%. Tables look nicer when they have “overwidth”, and when it comes to
tables too much width is definitely better than too little width.
- Cells need some padding. Sure, each table cell relates to each other. But it
doesn’t mean that we have to pull them too close, right? Define some space
between the cells, crammed up table cells are so much harder to read
- Treat tables the way you treat content. Tables are read similarly to the way
we read text — except it’s harder and it takes more time to read a table. So be
careful with the amount of contrast you are giving to your table. Use soft
colors — it’s easier for the eyes. Don’t treat your table like it’s a graphical
decoration. Make sure that the style you apply to it makes the content more
readable, not the other way around.

I will make some design examples for printout and screen documents and hope you
like them.

[1] https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/markusp/teaching/guides/guide-tables.pdf
[2] https://www.tug.org/pracjourn/2007-1/mori/mori.pdf
[3] https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/08/top-10-css-table-designs/

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks|101756  |107553


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101756
[Bug 101756] [META] Table styles bugs and enhancements
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107553
[Bug 107553] [META] Writer table styles bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #18 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to Gerry from comment #16)
> Academic styles are usually quite basic. There is no shaded area and only
> horizontal lines. 

Looks similar to the 'Simple List 8' style i was proposing, so we'll definitely
have something close to it.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #17 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 106308 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #16 from Gerry  ---
Created attachment 131584
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=131584=edit
Typical academic table style (2 variants)

I attached a typical academic table style (e.g. as they are used in many
academic journals), in two variants. It would be great to have such academic
table styles.

Academic styles are usually quite basic. There is no shaded area and only
horizontal lines. 

Variant 1 shows that the first row has a horizontal top border and horizontal
bottom border. The last row has only a horizontal bottom border.

Variant 2 is almost the same like variant 1, but the last row represents a
summary row and therefore additionally has a horizontal top border. 


It would be great if you could add such academic table styles to the default
set of table styles

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Yousuf (Jay) Philips  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||101756


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101756
[Bug 101756] [META] Table styles bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #15 from Regina Henschel  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #14)
> Though we dont presently support table styles in the  tag, we
> will in the future.

Please can you tell me more about such plans, perhaps in a direct mail to me in
case it is to long for this issue? The current implementation on master has
some problems, but in principle it follows the ODF 1.2 specification.

 Ultimately we dont have to call things by their ODF
> definition name if we decide that the name used isnt suitable.

How this feature is presented to the user is indeed a different problem.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #14 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #12)
> ? What "feature" are you missing? If you mark the whole table and use Table
> > AutoFormat Styles and then button Add, you get all the cell styles. The
> size 4x4 is only a minimum, you can use larger prototypes as well.

Seems the build i was using from the 16th didnt update the table style
correctly (Styles & Formatting sidebar, table styles tab, update style).

(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #13)
> The  element (9.1.2) has an attribute table:template-name and
> an attribute table:style-name. The style, which is referred by
> table:style-name is of type table and therefore has only those attributes
> listed in  (17.15) and those do not contain anything
> from the table template. For to be a style a table template would need a
> style:name attribute, but it has a table:name attribute. And it would need
> to be child of a  element. But that is not the case. Therefore
> my conclusion is, that the  element is no style.

Though we dont presently support table styles in the  tag, we will
in the future. Ultimately we dont have to call things by their ODF definition
name if we decide that the name used isnt suitable.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #13 from Regina Henschel  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #11)

> Dont think it is misleading to call it table styles, as that is what ODF
> calls it and what other office suites call it.

The  element (9.1.2) has an attribute table:template-name and an
attribute table:style-name. The style, which is referred by table:style-name is
of type table and therefore has only those attributes listed in
 (17.15) and those do not contain anything from the
table template. For to be a style a table template would need a style:name
attribute, but it has a table:name attribute. And it would need to be child of
a  element. But that is not the case. Therefore my conclusion is,
that the  element is no style.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #12 from Regina Henschel  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #11)

> Looks quite nice but unfortunately because the style wasnt created on a 4x4
> table, some of the features werent imported into the auto generated table
> style.

? What "feature" are you missing? If you mark the whole table and use Table >
AutoFormat Styles and then button Add, you get all the cell styles. The size
4x4 is only a minimum, you can use larger prototypes as well.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Regina Henschel  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||rb.hensc...@t-online.de

--- Comment #10 from Regina Henschel  ---
Created attachment 126995
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126995=edit
A pure gray table with banded rows

I have created it with a Version: 5.3.0.0.alpha0+
Build ID: 44216ddbc620a1c05e98dda1f63ed6df0eae5275
CPU Threads: 4; OS Version: Windows 6.1; UI Render: default; 
Locale: de-DE (de_DE); Calc: group

The example shows some features like banded rows and separate styles for the
corner cells.

To apply the table template to your own table, open the attached document and
then find the table template in the Table section of the Style pane
in the sidebar.

I think it is misleading to name it "table style", because it is not a style
for a table, but a "table template" is a set of references to table cell
styles.

I think, that the current implementation produces invalid ODF, so it is too
early to make final templates. Unfortunately there was no interest on dev to
discuss that.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #9 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7)
> In general, we should have a very simple style that fits 80%. Furthermore we
> need a full-features style to illustrate what is possible. And something for
> financial tables.

Definitely.

> Finally _a few_ design ideas would be good (the 100+
> options in Word makes no sense since users can easily change all attributes
> themselves).

MSO has 43 autoformat table styles, where only 1 of them are shown by default,
and 14 new table styles and 6 document theme-colored variants of those new
table styles (total is 99 :D). It makes perfect sense to provide colored
variants of table styles as

1) most users arent creative enough to colorize table styles (i include myself
in that category)
2) modifying table styles isnt an easy task that novice users (benjamin) would
be able to do or advanced users (eve) would want to do
3) the point of presets is to simplify the amount of changes the user has to
make

We definitely dont need 7 variants of each table style design, but having 3 or
4 of each would be beneficial (1 black/white and 2 or 3 colorized).

> I suggest to also ask the community like we do regarding templates, for
> instance.

Yes asking the creative minds in the community to assist with styles and
colorization would be useful.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #8 from Jean-Francois Nifenecker 
 ---
I fully agree with Heiko. Hundreds of examples are of no use. A few efficient
templates showing what can be done using LibreOffice are a better way, IMO.

A call to the community to provide some examples/templates is the way to go as
well.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #7 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Created attachment 126985
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126985=edit
Various table styles

Adding another draft. 

In general, we should have a very simple style that fits 80%. Furthermore we
need a full-features style to illustrate what is possible. And something for
financial tables. Finally _a few_ design ideas would be good (the 100+ options
in Word makes no sense since users can easily change all attributes
themselves).

I suggest to also ask the community like we do regarding templates, for
instance.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #6 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #5)

> please give your input on it, primarily the ones you like the most. 

Well, for what it's worth, my preference: Simple list 4, 8, 9, 7

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #5 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
Created attachment 126858
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126858=edit
1st collection of table styles

So here is a first attempt at a collection of grayscale table styles, so please
give your input on it, primarily the ones you like the most. Colored versions
of the chosen grayscale styles will then need to be created, hopefully by those
who have a good palette sense, as i don't. :D

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #4 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
Created attachment 126850
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126850=edit
WPS table styles

Here are the default table styles in WPS/Kingsoft office.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #3 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
Created attachment 126849
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126849=edit
ms word 2010 ribbon UI table styles

So to clarify, attachment 126625 contains only the base variants (mainly
grayscale) of the default themed ribbon UI table styles. The attached
screenshot includes all the default themed ribbon UI styles.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl

--- Comment #2 from Cor Nouws  ---
Created attachment 126628
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126628=edit
current LibreOffice AutoformatStyles

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #1 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Ideally we attach XML files, but so far the styles are stored binary.

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