[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Keywords|needsUXEval | CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda |.freedesktop.org|tion.org --- Comment #16 from Heiko Tietze --- + pro: convenient, self-explanatory (Stuart, Dieter) + con: misleading, adding complexity (Thomas, Heiko) + (multiple) CS could be assigned per toggle on/off at the list item, and we remove the dummy "Default" CS => suggest to resolve as WF -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 --- Comment #15 from Dieter Praas --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #14) > or "From paragraph settings". +1 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 --- Comment #14 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Dieter Praas from comment #13) > What about "From paragraph level"? or "From paragraph settings". Makes sense to me. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 --- Comment #12 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Dieter Praas from comment #11) > Either Default style is a character style (in this case documentation should > be changed) or "Default style" removes character style and therefor it is > not a character syle itself (in this case name "Default Style" should be > changed) Default *character* style is actually a pseudo-style; a name for "no character style applied". While it might be good to document something about that, I don't think that renaming it is a good idea, because its current name creates some consistency with e.g. paragraph styles, where "default style" exists (and is actual configurable style). For user, it means something basic and simple. Or - if a rename is wanted - it could be something like "Character settings defined at paragraph level" - too long, although correct. You cannot even name it "Paragraph style settings", because "no character style" aka "Default character style" means both paragraph style setting, and *direct paragraph-level formatting* are used for character properties. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 --- Comment #11 from Dieter Praas --- (In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #10) > More help texts? Help is not very helpful: https://help.libreoffice.org/6.4/en-US/text/swriter/01/0513.html?DbPAR=WRITER#bm_id4005249 and documentation is not very clear: "Removing or replacing character styles Sometimes, you will want to remove the character style formatting from some text, or change the character style to a different style. To do this: ... 3) Double-click the required character style, or double-click Default Style to remove the character style." (Writer 6.0 Guide Chaper 8, page 9) Either Default style is a character style (in this case documentation should be changed) or "Default style" removes character style and therefor it is not a character syle itself (in this case name "Default Style" should be changed) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 --- Comment #10 from Thomas Lendo --- Hm, if something existing isn't good to use or will not be used regardless of whether it would be useful, then this is an indicator of bad usability of existing tools. Instead of bringing more complexity to an already complex field of possibilities (here: the styles concept) with a new feature, we should allow users to better use existing features. The question is how to make this possible. More help texts? Tool tips? Another arrangement or naming of commands? I'm talking about character styles only and I'm with Heiko in comment 9. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 Dieter Praas changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12 ||6546 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 Dieter Praas changed: What|Removed |Added Blocks||108014 Referenced Bugs: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108014 [Bug 108014] [META] Writer character style bugs and enhancements -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Ever confirmed|0 |1 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW --- Comment #9 from Heiko Tietze --- At the first glance I agreed with the "clean CS" button idea. But this would lead the list in a nimbus state (no item selected), which is not achievable except this button. Feels wrong, is bad usability. Plus, it's a new UI control without some kind of whole concept behind that bothers me. OTOH, thinking about multi-selection to make nested CS possible, it's not far-fetched to ctrl-click a selected entry and to toggle it off by that. And last but not least, if the selection goes over some part of the paragraph including Default and CS, the Default entry is selected in the Styles menu and the styles sidebar list. In this situation it's absolutely not clear that clicking Default works similar to Clean Direct Formatting. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 --- Comment #8 from V Stuart Foote --- (In reply to Dieter Praas from comment #7) > > I can't find a "styles toolbar". Styles menu doesn't have that option > View -> Toolbars -> 'Formatting (Styles)' -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 Dieter Praas changed: What|Removed |Added CC||dgp-m...@gmx.de --- Comment #7 from Dieter Praas --- (In reply to RGB from comment #0) > For new users, it's quite difficult to find that the only way you have to > remove an applied character style is to apply the special character style > called "default style" on top of it. I agree > > The "styles toolbar" have a button to apply this special character style and > thus remove any applied character style,but its function is not evident at > first glance and anyway that toolbar is not enabled by default. I can't find a "styles toolbar". Styles menu doesn't have that option > I think a possible alternative is to add in the character style panel of the > style editor a button called "remove character styles from selection" or > something like that, being that button a shortcut to apply the default > character style. +1 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 Mike Kaganski changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12 ||8973 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960
--- Comment #6 from Mike Kaganski ---
Even without the "difficulty" and "distrust" feelings caused by unwanted
large-scale changes editing the Default style, the obvious consequence of this
in user learning is "understanding" that all styles should be "disconnected"
from the Default style (user would need to re-define all the properties in
inheritance tree leafs), thus making the inheritance concept less useful and
more of a hassle ("Why is everything inherited from Default? It makes things so
much harder!"). The very first encounter with the style inheritance concept,
instead of giving a useful and handy tool to user, becomes "meet this useless
and awkward thing that stays on your way" moment.
--
You are receiving this mail because:
You are on the CC list for the bug.
___
Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list
Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 --- Comment #5 from Mike Kaganski --- At risk of being off-topic here (since the request was about character styles(!)), I have to describe my PoV. While the imaginary "Default character style" (internally = don't use any character style, and use what is defined in paragraph style) is perfectly reasonable in any sense (and would be most used in ~any stylistically consistent document), Default paragraph style (an actual style, which might - and often should - be modified - consciously) is a *root* of most pre-defined styles, and thus its direct use is wrong from the proper styles use PoV. Of course, using it is not wrong from the programmatic PoV, but its default use in templates is just an unfortunate implementation detail that needs fixing. So making means to directly use it even more prominent than now is a bad thing. Specifically, using "Default paragraph style" in documents, and then starting use styles, would mean that a novice user has main text in that "Default style", and also applies, say, Heading N; also using headers/footers and tables automatically uses relevant styles in those elements. And when user then wants to edit the main style (Default!), this will propagate inherited settings to all the styles right and left - which might be (and often is) not what user needs. The inheritance levels are there for a reason: e.g., if user wants font face to be consistent across all used styles, user sets that in the lowest possible inheritance level; if user needs some paragraphs have indents or spacings, that wouldn't make sense to do at lowest level. Forcing users to start with base-of-everything Default style provokes each style edit to have too widescale (potentially destructive) consequences. We have too much of that Default paragraph style usage in our controls/templates: being the default in the templates; being set when e.g. Alt+Enter'ing out of a table; resetting to it when using the "Clear formatting" item in style list in toolbar... please don't create another prominent way to promote logically inconsistent workflow! It goes against the overall architecture of LibreOffice being built around using styles; and it makes learning using styles much more difficult for beginners (who try simple things like editing the used styles, and suddenly see unwanted results all over the document, which would cause distrust in the tool). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 --- Comment #4 from V Stuart Foote --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #3) > Please don't extend this to paragraph styles. Doing that would emphasize > usage of Default paragraph style - which is bad. Would it? Not so sure... For most users now--majority of their documents are already going to be in default style(s) as that is what the document type templates open with. While here, goal of having the controls prominent is to get the document content back to a known state--either selecting a word, a text run, a full paragraph, or the full document and resetting its style. Seems the efficient work flow is to first set the selection back to the template defaults for paragraph and character styles (or to the default style(s) as modified in current document). Making it ready to apply new style(s), in a second step if other than defaults is desired. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 --- Comment #3 from Mike Kaganski --- Please don't extend this to paragraph styles. Doing that would emphasize usage of Default paragraph style - which is bad. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 --- Comment #2 from V Stuart Foote --- (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #1) > It seems like there should be menu entry (either Style menu or a Format > menu) for the existing UNO controls--".uno:DefaultCharStyle" and > ".uno:DefaultParaStyle" used on the Formatting (Style) toolbar. So, the .uno:DefaultCharStyle is already on the 'Styles' menu--labeled 'Default Character' but uno:DefaultParaStyle is not; regardless addition to Sidebar decks is needed. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 128960] Editing: Add a more direct way to clear character styles
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128960 V Stuart Foote changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11 ||7022 Keywords||needsUXEval Summary|Editing: Add a more clear |Editing: Add a more direct |way to clean character |way to clear character |styles |styles Blocks||102946 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists ||.freedesktop.org, ||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu --- Comment #1 from V Stuart Foote --- +1, but maybe more than just for Character styles? It seems like there should be menu entry (either Style menu or a Format menu) for the existing UNO controls--".uno:DefaultCharStyle" and ".uno:DefaultParaStyle" used on the Formatting (Style) toolbar. The menu entry(s) would provide reset to default Character style and/or default Paragraph style--i.e. a "Style" corollary to the 'Clear Direct Formatting' control. And I would suggest this pair of actions also appear on the Sidebar Properties Deck, inside the 'Style' Content Panel or better in its Title bar, as a button action to "Clear (or Reset?) to Default". Likewise the same button actions should be added to the Title bar of the 'Style' deck. Intent of reusing controls--menus, Properties deck, and Style deck--being to provide a consistent and obvious way to remove any assigned styles. It would provide a means to get a text selection or a full paragraph back to known state--i.e. no Direct Formatting, no Style other than document default. Referenced Bugs: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102946 [Bug 102946] [META] Styles bugs and enhancements -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
