[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 Dieter changed: What|Removed |Added Resolution|FIXED |WONTFIX --- Comment #18 from Dieter --- SDC.blanco, you've changed status from WONTFIX to FIXED. But I don't understand this, because nothing has changed. => Back to WONTFIX Please feel free to change status again but add a short reasoning. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 --- Comment #17 from Dieter --- (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #16) > (In reply to Dieter from comment #14) > > functionality of the outline feature here. (Now I understand the function, > > but I don't know, why we need it, > 1. if "Outline" is used in TOC, then you need to set Outline level to have > headings appear in TOC (e.g., by default Appendix style has no level, so > will not appear). > 2. If you export "outline" in PDF, then you need to set outline level to > have headings appear (even if no numbers are used). Yes, but both things are also available with chapter numbering (and if you don't want to number the headings you can set "Number" to none). So again, I don't understand, why we need this feature. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 sdc.bla...@youmail.dk changed: What|Removed |Added Resolution|WONTFIX |FIXED --- Comment #16 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk --- (In reply to Dieter from comment #14) > functionality of the outline feature here. (Now I understand the function, > but I don't know, why we need it, 1. if "Outline" is used in TOC, then you need to set Outline level to have headings appear in TOC (e.g., by default Appendix style has no level, so will not appear). 2. If you export "outline" in PDF, then you need to set outline level to have headings appear (even if no numbers are used). > outline created with paragraph styles and outline created with chapter > numbering, but that's of course another topic.) Correct. Heading 1-10 have outline level set by default, but PS dialog is not used to give numbers those headings. The "connection" between numbering and outline level is created in the "Chapter Numbering" dialog. In that dialog, you are assigning a List level 1 numbering scheme to a paragraph style for each outline level, which may give the impression (and confusion?) that outline level and list level are the same (there is a special function in the source code that creates the mapping). When you use Tab or Demote/Promote One level on the PS specified in the dialog, then outline level changes (including the PS linked to that level in the dialog). Without the Chapter Numbering dialog (i.e., using only Outline Level and List Style in the PS), then you must manually change the list level (with Tab or "Demote One Level") each time you want an outline level to show a numbering over list level 1, but the outline level (and PS) will not change. (This can be verified empirically.) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Resolution|--- |WONTFIX Status|NEW |RESOLVED --- Comment #15 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #13) > But I am content to leave this as WF. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 --- Comment #14 from Dieter --- (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #13) > > Given that outline is kind of a list, how about "List Style"? > I believe you share a misunderstanding here with Dieter in relation to this > particular dialog tab -- which makes it difficult to discuss. (In this > exceptional case, the label may make a difference!) Yes, misunderstanding from my side, sorry. I wasn't aware of the functionality of the outline feature here. (Now I understand the function, but I don't know, why we need it, because in navigator we actually mix outline created with paragraph styles and outline created with chapter numbering, but that's of course another topic.) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178
sdc.bla...@youmail.dk changed:
What|Removed |Added
See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14
||1128
--- Comment #13 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #11)
> But in the end I believe users don't read those details.
Agree -- in general.
> The alliteration reads awkward.
Agree. "List & Level" would "sound" better. (-:
But I am content to leave this as WF.
Both “List & Level” and “Outline & List” are meaningful labels in relation to
the tab, so then it becomes a question of which words signal the important
functions of the tab.
I chose “Level” because it is the attribute being modified by "Outline Level".
Also, the word “Outline” gives a false impression that the numbering hierarchy
is created here in the paragraph (style) dialog, or that Outline Level has
something to do with the lists. It doesn't. [ Reason (c) in comment 0 also
demonstrated that confusion - but reasons (a) and (b) are still valid. ]
> Given that outline is kind of a list, how about "List Style"?
I believe you share a misunderstanding here with Dieter in relation to this
particular dialog tab -- which makes it difficult to discuss. (In this
exceptional case, the label may make a difference!)
>Dieter from comment #8> I'm not a native speaker...Chicago Manual of Style
>Dieter from comment #8> If "outline" is related to lists
The issue here is conceptual/technical, not linguistic. It cannot be solved by
looking at dictionary or style manual definitions; it requires understanding
what the controls are actually doing in this context (no matter what they are
called, though in this case, we must use the terminology provided by the UI.).
I have already accepted WF. But for the sake of clarity:
The critical point is that the word "level" is used with two different
independent meanings for "Outline Level" and "List Level" (in the LO interface
and in the underlying ODF).
The expression "Outline Level" comes presumably from the ODF (19.850
text:outline-level), which is carried over to the UI. But that "level" is
distinct from the attribute "level" (19.834 text:level), which is used with
list elements. In the UI, it appears that "Level" is also carried over to the
UI (in the Position and Customize tabs in Bullets and Numbering dialog). The
only place in the UI where I can find "List Level" at present is in the
Condition tab in the PS dialog -- and that is because I changed it recently).
("List level" also appears throughout comments in the source code.)
In the PS dialog tab under discussion here, there is no connection or
dependence between Outline Level and List Style (List Level). It is possible to
set an Outline Level without a List or apply a List without setting an Outline
Level.
The "connection" between "Outline Level" and "List Level" is created by the
Chapter Numbering dialog, which exists to create an apparent dependence between
Outline Level and List Level. (In fact, the dialog lets you assign a List Level
1 numbering to a Heading N which is assigned to an Outline Level). This
"assignment" is preserved/enforced by the UI, because the PS dialog prevents
editing Outline Level for the Heading N paragraph styles. (and if you choose to
use another PS in the Chapter Numbering dialog, then you will not be able to
set the Outline Level in the PS dialog -- by design).
The proposal to use "Level" instead of "Outline" was mostly to steer people
away from thinking that this tab has something to do with lists and outlines --
-- but following the principle "renaming … UI elements has to be an exception”,
then this reason ("steering away") is not a strong enough justification for an
exception right now.
But I hope this ticket highlights an issue that will get further attention. If
the Bullets and Numbering dialog gets developed further, it might be worth
considering using the label "List Level" instead of "Level" in the Position and
Customize tabs.
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 --- Comment #12 from Dieter --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #11) > Don't see advantage in shuffling the words. It would emphazise, that list is the broader word and outline is the list outline and it is something different than outline of the document. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added CC|heiko.tietze@documentfounda | |tion.org| --- Comment #11 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Dieter from comment #8) > From my POV "List & Level" has no advantage compared to "List & Outline". (In reply to Dieter from comment #9) > ...change from "Outline & List" to "List & Outline" Don't see advantage in shuffling the words. (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #0) > "Outline & Numbering" was changed to "Outline & List" > (a) reduce confusion with "Outline" tab and "Outline" in B > (b) highlights the important aspect ... namely "Level" > (c) tabs in "B" and "List Style" have a "Level" option > (d) leave the "Outline" label ...in B commonly known But in the end I believe users don't read those details. In most cases they glance over the dialog to find a way to "put numbers at the beginning of the text" having a chapter number in mind (Outline is the whole picture to me, an overview of the document structure). And less often to make a paragraph a list (type equally split here). So the keywords are numbering, outline, and list- and if I spot any of those terms I pick the tab. Given that outline is kind of a list, how about "List Style"? (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #0) > "Outline & List" -> "Level & List" The alliteration reads awkward. Off-topic: No need to CC me to UX topics, I receive and read all messages to the ux-advice mailing list. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 Dieter changed: What|Removed |Added CC||heiko.tietze@documentfounda ||tion.org --- Comment #10 from Dieter --- (In reply to Dieter from comment #9) > So my proposal is to make a little change from "Outline & List" to "List & > Outline", because in paragraph style dialog you can choose a list without an > outline, but - as far as I can see - not an outine without a list (therefore > we also might consider to change order within "List & Outline" tab: "Apply > List Style" first and "Outline" second. Heiko, what do you think? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 --- Comment #9 from Dieter --- (In reply to Dieter from comment #8) > I'm not a native speaker, but I had a look at Chicago Manual of Style 17th > Edition. If "outline" is related to lists, it is there defined as a "list > with multiple levels" (6.132). So my proposal is to make a little change from "Outline & List" to "List & Outline", because in paragraph style dialog you can choose a list without an outline, but - as far as I can see - not an outine without a list (therefore we also might consider to change order within "List & Outline" tab: "Apply List Style" first and "Outline" second. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 --- Comment #8 from Dieter --- I'm not a native speaker, but I had a look at Chicago Manual of Style 17th Edition. If "outline" is related to lists, it is there defined as a "list with multiple levels" (6.132). So outline and level seem to be synonyms if they are used in the context of lists. From my POV "List & Level" has no advantage compared to "List & Outline". -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 --- Comment #7 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk --- > Stuart, what's your take as native speaker? Looking forward to your comments Stuart. (will help resolve this ticket, which is the last piece in a larger puzzle). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW CC||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu Ever confirmed|0 |1 --- Comment #6 from Heiko Tietze --- In German the whole thing is "Gliederung" (meaning of outline) and easy to understand for native speakers. No need for level or list. I doubt it becomes more clear with any change (always in favor of tooltips) but also not objecting. If you rename the tab you also need to change the outline section, I guess. Stuart, what's your take as native speaker? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 140178] Change "Outline & List" to "Level & List" as tab label in Paragraph and Paragraph Style dialogs
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140178 sdc.bla...@youmail.dk changed: What|Removed |Added Keywords||needsUXEval CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists ||.freedesktop.org -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
