[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 143197] Writer: hidden link between list and chapter numbering
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143197 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Ever confirmed|0 |1 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW Keywords|needsUXEval | CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda |.freedesktop.org|tion.org --- Comment #11 from Heiko Tietze --- What we have in mind is probably the same. I'm trying to save users from knowing about a special LS for outlines. It should feel as much as possible like numbering. That's why I would keep F12/Numbering On and block everything what shouldn't be used (and prevent using this LS on ordinary paragraphs). If we remove F12 and keep CN as a different way to number paragraphs users will stay confused and rather do some DF with bold weight and large size than using a heading style. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 143197] Writer: hidden link between list and chapter numbering
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143197 --- Comment #10 from ajlittoz --- @Heiko Tietze is spot on the point. Mixing list style direct formatting approach with chapter numbering results in an undefined state. I like the present Chapter Numbering dedicated configuration despite its restriction on the type of "numbering" (no bullet). What I criticize is the possibility to interfere through F12 which messes up the CN configuration and creates inconsistencies. One of these inconsistencies is >Under the heading "Level 3" in there it says "Note the bullet" - but there's >no bullet. where saving the file "renormalized" what I tweaked (apologies, I didn't check that save-close-open roundtrip kept everything as I forced them). I forced a bullet "numbering" on levels 3 and 4. Bullets shows up in the headings (Heading 3 and 4 paragraph styles) but were not transferred to the TOC (Contents 3 and 4 paragraph styles). >The ultimate question is: can we make the chapter numbering comfortable to use >and easy to understand at the same time without too much restriction? >From my point of view, chapter numbering is quite comfortable to use but I am no longer a reference for newbie opinion. I haven't used Word for years and I don't remember how chapter numbering is implemented there, whether as a variant of list numbering or some other mechanism. Merging list and chapter numbering is appealing but we must keep in mind the differences (perhaps artificial?): - a list style may be attached to many paragraph styles, and this paragraph style will be used on all levels. - a single paragraph style may be attached to a chapter numbering level through the CN configuration dialog - the internal chapter numbering style cannot be attached to any paragraph style outside the CN dialog, enforcing the single style rule For my advanced uses of Writer (which are likely not those of the majority of users), I'd like: - to be able to differentiate paragraph styles per list level (CN→LS extension) - to have also bullets in CN (LS→CN extension) I don't think that assigning CN to several paragraph styles at the same level is a "good" extension because it may look weird. Outline formatting must remain homogeneous for obvious aesthetic reasons. But if uniformity calls for making CN an explicit user-accessible list style like Numbering 123, I won't object. It'll user responsibility to avoid ugly look. Whatever the evolution of LS/CN, the most important goal is to avoid any unexpected state which would confuse user. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 143197] Writer: hidden link between list and chapter numbering
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143197 --- Comment #9 from Heiko Tietze --- The actual issue is that PS (paragraph style) can be assigned to a LS (list style), which is typically done for outline headings, see comment 6. If users change the LS, eg. per right-click List > Numbering Style, it results in an unexpected state. The ticket aims for a discussion whether the command Toggle Ordered List (shortcut F12) should become disabled on headings (has to be done for all kind of LS). The dedicated LS for headings is Chapter Numbering (CN) offering a subset of LS attributes with a fix style ID. My take: since the restriction to CN does not work well I wouldn't go further and block LS but step back and use only LS. Effectively it is the same - however the initial "creation" of the LS could be done per F12 and would become an edit function later. The ultimate question is: can we make the chapter numbering comfortable to use and easy to understand at the same time without too much restriction? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 143197] Writer: hidden link between list and chapter numbering
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143197 --- Comment #8 from Eyal Rozenberg --- I don't understand what the bug is. Is that the interaction of list style and Outline Numbering (which is misnamed Chapter Numbering) in undefined? Is it the currently implemented behavior? Is it something in the ToC? I opened the document; it is not clear what's wrong with it. Under the heading "Level 3" in there it says "Note the bullet" - but there's no bullet. Even regardless of that, the document does not indicate what the bug is. The ToC seems to match the content outside the ToC. Version: 7.4.0.0.alpha0+ / LibreOffice Community Build ID: d9b33ed6644203141fdb0776c291425c2bc9f5ac CPU threads: 4; OS: Linux 5.10; UI render: default; VCL: gtk3 Locale: en-IL (en_IL); UI: en-US > I fear there is no real solution to the problem of list UI and > "intuitiveness". There certainly won't be a real solution if this matter is not properly discussed and summarized in a cogent document. It seems from your comments that no such official document exists, but perhaps others can enlighten us with a link. Although TBH that might be outside the scope of this bug. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 143197] Writer: hidden link between list and chapter numbering
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143197 sdc.bla...@youmail.dk changed: What|Removed |Added CC||sdc.bla...@youmail.dk See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14 ||0752, ||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14 ||8673 --- Comment #7 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk --- (In reply to ajlittoz from comment #0) > List and chapter numbering should be separate and have been kept so for long. ummmthe Bullets and Numbering Bar appears for both list paragraphs and for numbered paragraphs registered in Tools > Chapter Numbering (i.e., they are not separated there). Have suggested (bug 148673 comment 5) making separate toolbars for list paragraphs and paragraphs that appear in Chapter Numbering (Outline) (for reasons being discussed here, even if it seems redundant). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 143197] Writer: hidden link between list and chapter numbering
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143197 --- Comment #6 from ajlittoz --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #5) I can't answer for the average user. I consider myself as an expert in using Writer and I have clean ideas about typography (or I hope so). The most difficult step for a newbie is to understand what defines in list in Writer and what makes lists different from each other. A list is characterised by a =list style=. Paragraphs associated with the same list style are members of the same logical list. Numbering may be restarted but all paragraphs nevertheless belong in the same list. All will share the same numbering format (though the item text can look different is the list style is associated with several paragraph styles). Several logical lists are necessarily associated with different list styles. One of these is chapter numbering. For safety, its list style is "internal" (not listed in the side style pane) and therefore cannot be selected in paragraph style configuration dialog. This eliminates a cause of confusion. You must assign the paragraph style to an outline level in the specific chapter numbering dialog. What about the direct-format lists created with F12 or toolbar buttons? Obviously, the clean list style mechanism has been tweaked to facilitate newbie access to the feature. Contrary to explicitly styled lists, numbering appearance can be changed item per item. All items are not part of a single logical list and numbering can be changed from Format>Bullets & Numbering without affecting all items, showing that they are split into "independent" lists though they apparently share the same "style". Compared to the rigorous definition of list through styles, this can even confuse a newbie if a list was made "erratically" (items initially entered, then some text with another list, then back to add more items to the first list) as a modification of numbering properties will not show up on the full "visual list" but only on the part where the cursor is. The F12/toolbar button method may look like an easy way of creating lists, but most newcomers/Word-switchers don't understand the underlying principle (to be honest, it took me years to develop a satisfactory mental model, though I read thoroughly the available documentation) and this makes even more difficult to tune lists. The F12 method is acceptable only for one-shot short documents. Unfortunately you can't request people reading first a dull caveat doc (to be created) before using Writer. I fear there is no real solution to the problem of list UI and "intuitiveness". >So UX-wise we rather remove the CN dialog than B No. Chapter numbering is separate from list numbering (the style is "internal") and must remain so to avoid subtle problems. Also, CN had additional properties I'd like to see forwarded to lists. The most valuable for me is the possibility to attach specific paragraph styles to different levels. But this reverses the logic for list configuration. Presently you attach a list style to a paragraph style, while my wish requires to attach paragraph styles to a list style. This could break compatibility with existing documents. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 143197] Writer: hidden link between list and chapter numbering
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143197 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added CC||vmik...@collabora.com --- Comment #5 from Heiko Tietze --- I miss the expectation. You have H1 with a latin numbers, H2 uses lower case arabic characters as numbering with only 1 sublevel, and H3, H4 none. Changing via Tools > Chapter Numbering (CN) or Format > B is not different unless you apply an unordered list (bullets), which can't be used in CN. If I use bullets on H3 it's not taken into the ToC, however MSO does that. The round-trip shows both bullet on the heading and in the ToC after updating the ToC the whole entry is missing! No question that this function is difficult in general. But we don't make it easier to access if we remove a shortcut. So how about bending the B function to CN in case of a heading? We could keep the buttons and show some kind of familiar dialog (ideally the dialog still shows list of presets filtered for CN, see bug 120905). The user expectation is to click a button and the software handles the internals. Meaning B is done as list style for ordinary paragraphs and as CN in case of headings. So UX-wise we rather remove the CN dialog than B -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
