[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Keywords|needsUXEval | CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda |.freedesktop.org|tion.org --- Comment #38 from Heiko Tietze --- Removing UX as of comment 31 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 Telesto changed: What|Removed |Added Resolution|WONTFIX |--- Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED Ever confirmed|0 |1 --- Comment #37 from Telesto --- Setting to REOPENED for the time being (previous state: RESOLVED WONTFIX) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #36 from Dieter --- (In reply to Telesto from comment #35) > B) Mimic the behavior, as if a comment comment box where present in the > empty paragraph. In that case you really need to press arrow left to go > beginning. This should be limited to case of empty paragraph. This would > solve the issue in the majority of the cases. I still agree to Telesto and think it might be a solution, if technically possible (although it might be seen as an easter egg) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #35 from Telesto --- Created attachment 184510 --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=184510=edit Screencast (gif) I aware reviving a bug isn't really appreciated. However the fix for bug 120469 is resulting in a disturbing user workflow, IMHO. The side-effects of the fix are not outweighing the benefits, if you ask. I do see bug 120469 as a valid request, though. However the side-effect are making me question if it should be fixed this way. I’m often in a fight with Writer. Press Enter with cursor at the beginning of paragraph with text or an empty paragraph, and image anchored to that paragraph, causes number of effect: * adds paragraph above the image (surprise). Normally a paragraph being added below * the cursor doesn't move; still at the bottom . Normally the cursor moves with to the newly created paragraph, so downwards (surprise). * You can set Wrap to Optimal, the paragraph will go the side, but you’re unable to press Enter, to add additional paragraph next to the image * You can't press Enter in table cell (to add paragraph below) * Press ALT+ENTER below an image, will include the image (if the paragraph empty) See screencast. All those issues didn’t exist before the bugfix for bug 120469. What is bug 120469 about. Idea: pressing Enter at the start of the paragraph (33 33) to move 33 33 down (creating an empty paragraph between 22 22 and 33 33) including moving the image anchor. Anchor will only be included if you place the cursor explicitly at the start of the paragraph. If you move cursor one step to the right (if text pressed) (LTR) & hit enter it will create paragraph below. In case of empty paragraph start & end of the paragraph being the same thing. And Enter (to add new paragraph) is handled as if pressing Enter at the start of the paragraph. It’s always at the start of the paragraph. Without any means to switch to the ‘end’ position. And pressing enter in an empty paragraph with image anchored to it isn't that uncommon. By inserting a comment box into an empty paragraph, a distinction is made between, start & end of the paragraph. The paragraph is visually still empty, but the behavior changes. If you click inside paragraph with the mouse, you will be in ‘end’ position. Only if you press arrow left you move to ‘start’ of paragraph position. I see two solutions: A) revert the commit bug 120469 (this has been present for years :-) B) Mimic the behavior, as if a comment comment box where present in the empty paragraph. In that case you really need to press arrow left to go beginning. This should be limited to case of empty paragraph. This would solve the issue in the majority of the cases. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #34 from Mike Kaganski --- *** Bug 139071 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. *** -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13 ||3104 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #33 from Roman Kuznetsov <79045_79...@mail.ru> --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #31) > The topic was on the agenda of the design meeting. > > The current situation can be explained (comment 13) and is straightforward. > Some may expect the object to move some want it to remain. And ultimately > the discussion is somewhat academic anyway. So the recommendation is to keep > the current behavior. => WF And I disagree with current behavior and it's fully unclear for users now -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 Mike Kaganski changed: What|Removed |Added CC||79045_79...@mail.ru --- Comment #32 from Mike Kaganski --- *** Bug 149162 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. *** -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED Resolution|--- |WONTFIX --- Comment #31 from Heiko Tietze --- The topic was on the agenda of the design meeting. The current situation can be explained (comment 13) and is straightforward. Some may expect the object to move some want it to remain. And ultimately the discussion is somewhat academic anyway. So the recommendation is to keep the current behavior. => WF -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #30 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #27) >... the cursor is between the anchoring point and the paragraph marker? Comment 13 has some wisdom -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #29 from Cor Nouws --- the behavior is odd - I do recognize it - but I see no sensible, always logic, way to improve that..? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #28 from Cor Nouws --- (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #27) > I didn't follow all comments - sorry - but has it been discussed that maybe > a possible change is that the cursor is between the anchoring point and the > paragraph marker? > Then pressing Enter would not move the anchor. Ah, but that is ~opposite to the behavior introduced in bug 120469 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #26 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Dieter from comment #25) > So who can decide in such a situation? As always, the do-er decides ;-). I would be afraid of messing up with the anchor, we likely missed side-effects, and rather change the indicator. WF could also be a resolution. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #25 from Dieter --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #24) > So many if-then arguments but no clear recommendation from my side ;-). So who can decide in such a situation? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #24 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Dieter from comment #20) > But what is your conclusion for the current report: "If paragraph is empty, > image should be anchored to paragraph instead to character?" I'm fine with > that. As Telesto pointed out it's the only straight-forward solution in case of empty documents if we disable the type of anchor in empty paragraphs. The alternative is to accept the current situation, which is more or less clear as Mike explained. If the anchor symbol would become a "pointy anchor" it should be easier to understand. So many if-then arguments but no clear recommendation from my side ;-). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #23 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Telesto from comment #21) > Off-topic side note: it's really hard to use 'to character' to anchor an > image to specific word ... Yse, completely off-topic, covered by tdf#141160, tdf#141161, tdf#141162. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #22 from Telesto --- Created attachment 179940 --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=179940=edit Example file I still think the current behaviour being correct.. I admit there are some cases where this actually suboptimal.. 1. Open the attached file 2. Press backspace (nothing happens; related to step 7) 3. Press Enter.. -> Notice paragraph being created before the textbox. Also happening in Word 4. Undo everything 5. Type say 'A' character & press Enter -> position sticks (also in Word) 6. Press CTRL+Z to undo the new paragraph 7. Press backspace to delete the 'A' -> Textbox gets deleted). Not happening in Word.. But this should be covered by bug 148868 Above happens independent of anchoring type 'to paragraph' or 'to character' -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #21 from Telesto --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #19) > Sounds logical to me: no character, no anchor. Well if you insert an object to empty page, and the default default anchor is 'to character', it must be anchored so.. So this actually should work, a contrary what the label might suggest.. And keep in mind why To Character became default... -- > It would be an improvement if the anchor would become a clear symbol for > As/To Character. Maybe, but well the anchor is only visible if you have the image selected. And 'to paragraph' anchor is pretty obvious to detect; it's always anchored at the start of paragraph. To character anchor is mostly somewhere in the paragraph. Except if the document based on empty paragraphs.. I'm undecided if toggle formatting marks should have some marker for anchors Off-topic side note: it's really hard to use 'to character' to anchor an image to specific word [or more specific a specific character of a word] + positioning the image with drag and drop. To character anchor kind of suggests control over the anchor, but well that's not exactly the case. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #20 from Dieter --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #19) > Sounds logical to me: no character, no anchor. +1 > Having allows me to delete both spaces as long one > remains. I confirm that. But that also means, that anchor changes to a different character, if the original character is deleted 8might be the expected behaviour; O.K. for me) > And in case of the image is > highlighted if the middle section is selected. I can't confirm that. Image is only highlighted, if I select all spaces (But I have no idea, how it is possible to see, that it is or or any other combination.) > It would be an improvement if the anchor would become a clear symbol for > As/To Character. +1 But what is your conclusion for the current report: "If paragraph is empty, image should be anchored to paragraph instead to character?" I'm fine with that. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #19 from Heiko Tietze --- If the caret comes after the object it would become delete on backspace (see also bug 132321). Right now you can delete the empty paragraphs until the second (this is inconsistent as backspace on the very first empty paragraph does not delete but del does). (In reply to Dieter from comment #15) > c) Not possible to have anchor to character in an empty paragraph Sounds logical to me: no character, no anchor. Having allows me to delete both spaces as long one remains. And in case of the image is highlighted if the middle section is selected. Very consistent, IMO. It would be an improvement if the anchor would become a clear symbol for As/To Character. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #18 from Dieter --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #16) > So please drop that "below". Or the result will quickly become even more > confusing. Second try: So let me give some resons for solution a) 1. Consisteny I: If we have anchor to (an empty) paragraph order seems to be: paragraph start | cursor | anchor (to paragraph) | paragraph end 2. Consistency II: Similar behaviour in an empty paragraph and in a paragraph after inserting a character. 3. Consistency III: There should be the same behaviour as in empty paragraphs without an anchor: New paragraph is inserted after the paragraph (So I assume, this is what users also expect for empty paragraphs with an anchor to character inside) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #17 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #16) > If you suggest to make insertion of paragraph *before* the anchor ... I'm sorry to create even more confusion. I meant to write "after" where I typed that "before". Sorry. So please read the above as > If you suggest to make insertion of paragraph *after* the anchor ... -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 --- Comment #16 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Dieter from comment #15) > Just let me rephrase, what I understand Your rephrase is very correct. Only one, very specific problem in your following explanation (the UX problem itself, and the proposal that you suggest, looks OK to me): > 3. User expectations: If there is an image with an empty paragraph below and > user presses enter we can assume, ... Please do *not* talk in terms of "below/above" in such cases. As I explained in the end of comment 13, the relative position of object and its anchor point is absolutely irrelevant. As soon as you try to define your proposal in terms of "user sees the image above the cursor -> they expect this or that" ... you create a huge inconsistency potential. If you suggest to make insertion of paragraph *before* the anchor when the anchor is the only paragraph contents, then it should be the only behavior: we must do it no matter if the image is above, or below, or to the left or to the right, when it's positioned absolute or relative ... So please drop that "below". Or the result will quickly become even more confusing. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 146445] Change behaviour of anchor to character in an empty paragraph (see comment 15)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146445 Dieter changed: What|Removed |Added CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists ||.freedesktop.org Keywords|bibisectRequest, regression |needsUXEval Severity|normal |enhancement Summary|Anchor of image moves to|Change behaviour of anchor |next paragraph when type|to character in an empty |Enter key at original |paragraph (see comment 15) |(empty) paragraph | --- Comment #15 from Dieter --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #13) > and that means, for empty paragraph, that the > inserted anchor is *before* ... what? it's before the paragraph end, which > serves the anchoring point in this case. So when you put a cursor into an > empty paragraph, it is *after* paragraph start, and *before* paragraph end; > when you press Enter, you logically insert a "paragraph end - paragraph > start" pair in the place where your cursor is, moving the existing old > paragraph end to the following new paragraph; and since that moved paragraph > end is the anchoring point, the anchored object moves accordingly. Thank you for your detailed explanation. Just let me rephrase, what I understand and let me explain, why I still see inconsistency here and a need for an enhancement: After inserting an image in an empty document, we have empty paragraph below document and order within this paragraph is: paragraph start | anchor | paragraph end After placing cursor in that empty paragraph we have: paragraph start | cursor | anchor | paragraph end Scenario A: press enter => paragraph break between paragraph start and anchor => New empty paragraph before image (so this is, what you explained as expected behaviour and I can understand it now and therefore I won't consider the current behaviour a bug) Scenario B: Press spacebar (or any character) (Order within paragraph is: paragraph start | character (with connected anchor to character) | cursor | paragraph end) Press Enter => New paragraph after the old paragraph and anchor to character is still part of the old paragraph (Expected) So I think we can reduce problem to the question: To what should we anchor an anchor to character, if there is no character inside a) paragraph start => with cursor we have order: paragraph start | anchor | cursor | paragraph end (I would prefer this solution) b) paragraph end => with cursor we have order: paragraph start | cursor | anchor | paragraph end (current behaviour) c) Not possible to have anchor to character in an empty paragraph So let me give some resons for solution a) 1. Consisteny I: If we have anchor to (an empty) paragraph order seems to be: paragraph start | cursor | anchor (to paragraph) | paragraph end 2. Consistency II: Similar behaviour in an empty paragraph and in a paragraph after inserting a character. 3. User expectations: If there is an image with an empty paragraph below and user presses enter we can assume, that he would like to insert a new paragraph below the empty paragraph and not above the image (this is at least what he sees as a result). So I would see it as enhancement, I've changed bug summary and added design-team for additional input. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
