[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Keywords|needsUXEval | CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda |.freedesktop.org|tion.org --- Comment #16 from Heiko Tietze --- We discussed this topic in the design meeting. Changing "to" to "of" might be good for some but not all scenarios (for instance 'left of the entire page' is not the same as 'to'). It opens a chain of patches and has no clear benefit for understandability. The proposed rearrangement of controls fails or might be inappropriate for other languages than English and also wont make the functionality easier to understand. The recommendation is to leave the dialog as it is (=> WF), but no strong objection if volunteers want to change it (keeping UNCONF therefore). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #15 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk --- (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #14) > You can't "position X from Y". You continue to misunderstand the dialog for this example. Using the actual words of the dialog (as proposed, plus a few words usually dropped in controls), the example says, in grammatical English, to position object X: from (the) left (edge) of (the) entire paragraph area by 0.7cm > I'm trying to explain why I don't see this change as an improvement. Yes, but so far the only reason offered is that the OP does not use the criterion that you have put forward. As a matter of logic, a proposal that does not use your criterion will not be seen as an improvement. If you are not willing to consider other criteria, or consider the proposal in its own terms (e.g., an improvement that can be done here and now, probably within a few hours, easier to explain/document), then there is nothing left to discuss. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #14 from Eyal Rozenberg --- (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #13) > Unclear to me whether you understand this positioning control because it > needs to have "by" in this case. "Position from left of entire paragraph area by 0.70cm" still no good. > > especially since it's not a valid phrase in English. > Why not? I don't know, I'm not a linguist... it just isn't. The imperative verb "position" can take a direct object and an indirect object with preposition 'at': "position X at Y". You can't "position X from Y". > It does not depend on or presuppose your "sentence-forming" criterion, and > there is no reason why that criterion should be an absolute requirement > for making any easy, but useful, improvement to the existing interface. > (the point of the OP). I'm trying to explain why I don't see this change as an improvement. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #13 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk --- (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #12) > (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #11) > > > "Position from left of entire paragraph area" is still unacceptable IMO. > > Because it's not at all clear what this means. Unclear to me whether you understand this positioning control because it needs to have "by" in this case. > especially since it's not a valid phrase in English. Why not? > And the combination of these controls - which are > "sentence-forming" in nature - should be readable as a sentence. The OP is relative to the existing interface. It does not depend on or presuppose your "sentence-forming" criterion, and there is no reason why that criterion should be an absolute requirement for making any easy, but useful, improvement to the existing interface. (the point of the OP). As noted in comment 6, the OP "is not meant not meant to preclude other further or different developments with the positioning dialog." Simply repeating that you disagree strongly only indicates that the OP does not follow your criterion. That was acknowledged already in the OP. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #12 from Eyal Rozenberg --- (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #11) > > "Position from left of entire paragraph area" is still unacceptable IMO. > Reasons? Because it's not at all clear what this means, especially since it's not a valid phrase in English. And the combination of these controls - which are "sentence-forming" in nature - should be readable as a sentence. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #11 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk --- (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #10) > Yes, that's the problem: "Position from left of paragraph area by 0.70cm". > "Position from left of entire paragraph area" is still unacceptable IMO. Reasons? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #10 from Eyal Rozenberg --- (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #9) > 1. There is no proposal for "Position from X". That's what the mockup says... > 2. There is an option for the Horizontal control "From left", which was > used in the attached example, so that the "by" control could also be > included. Yes, that's the problem: "Position from left of paragraph area by 0.70cm". > Otoh, most of the the Horizontal control options do not activate the "by" > control, so they would be presented as: "Left" of "Entire Paragraph Area" > or "Center" of "Entire Paragraph Area", etc. "Position from left of entire paragraph area" is still unacceptable IMO. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #9 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #8) > (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #5) > > You cannot "position from X" in English. This example seems to be based on a misunderstanding of both the dialog and the example used in the attachment. 1. There is no proposal for "Position from X". 2. There is an option for the Horizontal control "From left", which was used in the attached example, so that the "by" control could also be included. Otoh, most of the the Horizontal control options do not activate the "by" control, so they would be presented as: "Left" of "Entire Paragraph Area" or "Center" of "Entire Paragraph Area", etc. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added CC||fit...@ubuntu.com --- Comment #8 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #5) > You cannot "position from X" in English. I don't stumble much as native German speaker. The order within a sentence depends on the language and if we make this work (better) in English it won't fit other perhaps. No opinion for to vs. of from my side. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #7 from Eyal Rozenberg --- (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #6) > (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #5) > > They have to guess what this might mean. > Or read the documentation. -- where UI choices can make it easier to > explain/document. Absolutely not. The user should not read the documentation ton understand what the controls mean, except in very complex and delicate cases (this not being one of them). > As also noted in the OP, the proposal here is not meant to preclude other > further or different developments with the positioning dialog. Perhaps, but it doesn't fix the problem with that dialog, it only shifts it around. > (c) the present proposal > has been found to assist understanding the operation of the currently > existing implementation, I don't see that it has. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #6 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk --- (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #5) > They have to guess what this might mean. Or read the documentation. -- where UI choices can make it easier to explain/document. I would propose that you open a new ticket for your intention to make an interface with "coherent, grammatically valid sentences" that is consistent with "the lower level...how the different controls combine." -- with the concrete details laid out with actual examples. (it is unclear to me whether your Align [F1] to [F2] with offset [F3] will actually work with all cases, and if not, what changes in underlying code or UI would be required.) As also noted in the OP, the proposal here is not meant to preclude other further or different developments with the positioning dialog. Meanwhile, although the proposal copied into comment 3 looks -- on the surface -- to be more or less the same as the OP, there was no intention in the OP to follow the design criteria (named in comment 5). Rather, the present proposal (a) works with the existing implemented lower level, (b) where the proposed UI changes have been evaluated concretely in relation to more or less all the anchoring and positioning options, and (c) has been found to assist understanding the operation of the currently existing implementation, and (d) can be achieved quickly and easily as an EasyHack (skillDesign, no skillCpp). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #5 from Eyal Rozenberg --- (In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #4) Strongly disagree. To "create an appropriate mental model" you have to start at the lower level, which is understanding how the different controls combine. This is difficult, or even one could say broken, if controls on a line don't form coherent, grammatically valid sentences. In our case, you suggest that the dialog read: "Position from left of paragraph area by 0.7 cm". You cannot "position from X" in English. While you may have developed a certain assumption regarding what this means, most people don't share it. They have to guess what this might mean. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #4 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #3) > > Align [F1] to [F2] with offset [F3] Two problems with this proposal. 1. uses "to". Heart of OP is to use "of" instead of "to" -- because it gives a better affordance for an appropriate mental model. (iow -- the syntax is being used here to give insight has to reflect the semantics...) 2. Cursory evaluation suggests that Align (Left, Center, etc.) "to" (Page, Para) etc. does not give an appropriate model. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 --- Comment #3 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from bug 148593 comment #6) > Option 1: Enable constructing the following phrases for Horizontal: > > Align [F1] to [F2] with offset [F3] > > F1: Left, Right, Center (and perhaps also Start and End, where these will be > interpreted according to the direction of the anchored-to entity. > > F2: par. area, par. text area, left page border, right page border, page > start border, page end border, page inner border (when we have book > margins), page outer border (when we have book margins), page text area, > entire page . > > F3: text box accepting both negative and positive values. > Option 2: Similar to option 1, but add another field controlling the > direction of offset Think using negative values is not too bad and -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 Eyal Rozenberg changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14 ||8593 --- Comment #2 from Eyal Rozenberg --- I guess Heiko is referring to what I wrote in bug 148593. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added CC||eyalr...@gmx.com --- Comment #1 from Heiko Tietze --- Eyal had a similar idea to make the content readable. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 149407] Proposal for slight change in position and label of controls in the Position dialog for objects
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149407 sdc.bla...@youmail.dk changed: What|Removed |Added Keywords||needsUXEval Blocks||103270, 103305, 108741 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists ||.freedesktop.org Referenced Bugs: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=103270 [Bug 103270] [META] Image/Picture dialog bugs and enhancements https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=103305 [Bug 103305] [META] Frame dialog bugs and enhancements https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108741 [Bug 108741] [META] Shapes bugs and enhancements -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
