[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 Status|NEW |ASSIGNED
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |
   |.freedesktop.org|
  Component|LibreOffice |Calc

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #58 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Yousuf Philips committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=79bca854451a24dd9cf17f8befaccfcb40d996fa

tdf#91820 Add insert pivot table to data menu

It will be available in 5.3.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #57 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Yousuf Philips committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=dc25f08521ba73c4d5141c8c9b020de26159b1ed

tdf#91820 Correct insert date and time labels in menu

It will be available in 5.3.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #56 from Stanislav Horacek  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #54)
> (In reply to Stanislav Horacek from comment #51)
> > Pivot table is a type of data analysis, you are creating just a new
> > view/interpretation of existing data (similarly to filters or statistical
> > analysis - all from Data), not inserting a new object like image.
> 
> I agree with you that pivot table is about data analysis, but the insert
> menu is not limited to just objects like an image, as you can insert a
> comment, hyperlink, function, etc. Similar to a chart, pivot table utilizes
> existing data on a sheet to render that data in a different way.

Yes, Chart is the only Insert item dealing with existing data (when thinking
about that, it would work in Data for me as well;) - but it inserts a new
complex object controlled by completely different menus and toolbars. Pivot
table is represented only by cells and filters - hence I would see it as
something really close to filters.

> There can be exceptions to the rule of having unique locations in the menu
> for each function and it seems this likely will be one of them. So i'll add
> an additional entry in the data menu for it.
> 
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/27925

Maybe the duplicity is suboptimal, but surely better than the current state.
Thanks, Jay!

(Similarly to Cor's experience, my suggestion was inspired by a frustrated user
who started to use AOO because he thought that LO contained a bug preventing
creating pivot tables.)

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #55 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #54)

> There can be exceptions to the rule of having unique locations in the menu
> for each function and it seems this likely will be one of them. So i'll add
> an additional entry in the data menu for it.
> 
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/27925

I think that's a good idea. Thanks.
(Another user request on the Dutch list today - is going to be a FAQ ;) )

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #54 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
(In reply to Stanislav Horacek from comment #51)
> Pivot table is a type of data analysis, you are creating just a new
> view/interpretation of existing data (similarly to filters or statistical
> analysis - all from Data), not inserting a new object like image.

I agree with you that pivot table is about data analysis, but the insert menu
is not limited to just objects like an image, as you can insert a comment,
hyperlink, function, etc. Similar to a chart, pivot table utilizes existing
data on a sheet to render that data in a different way.

> The comments above does not seem to support the move to Insert - could the
> change be revised?

There can be exceptions to the rule of having unique locations in the menu for
each function and it seems this likely will be one of them. So i'll add an
additional entry in the data menu for it.

https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/27925

(In reply to kompilainenn from comment #52)
> may be rename "Insert Pivot Table" to "Create Pivot Table" and really move
> it to menu "Data"?

The word create or add could be substituted for insert with many of the entries
in the insert menu. Are we inserting or creating a chart, textbox, or shape?

(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #53)
> I've had multiple calls on the fact that "pivot tables" don't work any more.
> It's rather counter intuitive atm..

You cant please everyone with the reorganization of menus, luckily people still
have the ability to customized them.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #53 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to kompilainenn from comment #52)
> 
> may be rename "Insert Pivot Table" to "Create Pivot Table" and really move
> it to menu "Data"?

I've had multiple calls on the fact that "pivot tables" don't work any more.
It's rather counter intuitive atm..

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #52 from kompilainenn <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
(In reply to Stanislav Horacek from comment #51)
> (In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #49)
> > menu - "Use the Data menu commands to edit the data in the current sheet.
> > You can define ranges, sort and filter the data, calculate results, outline
> > data, and create a pivot table."
> 
> This is not true anymore, creating pivot table is now in Insert and I would
> consider it as a bug.
> 
> Pivot table is a type of data analysis, you are creating just a new
> view/interpretation of existing data (similarly to filters or statistical
> analysis - all from Data), not inserting a new object like image.
> 
> The comments above does not seem to support the move to Insert - could the
> change be revised?

may be rename "Insert Pivot Table" to "Create Pivot Table" and really move it
to menu "Data"?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Stanislav Horacek  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||stanislav.hora...@gmail.com

--- Comment #51 from Stanislav Horacek  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #49)
> menu - "Use the Data menu commands to edit the data in the current sheet.
> You can define ranges, sort and filter the data, calculate results, outline
> data, and create a pivot table."

This is not true anymore, creating pivot table is now in Insert and I would
consider it as a bug.

Pivot table is a type of data analysis, you are creating just a new
view/interpretation of existing data (similarly to filters or statistical
analysis - all from Data), not inserting a new object like image.

The comments above does not seem to support the move to Insert - could the
change be revised?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #50 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Yousuf Philips committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=f2ca0749440442fb141cf8862b62b5272bc07b5a

tdf#91820 A round of minor tweaks to Calc's menus

It will be available in 5.3.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Commit Notification  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Whiteboard| target:5.1.0   | target:5.1.0 target:5.3.0

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Yousuf (Jay) Philips  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||98075

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #47 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
(In reply to kompilainenn from comment #46)
> Hi, Yousuf. Item "Fill cell" in menu "Sheet" inconvenient to use. Even
> knowing about the changes in the menu, I've been searching this item. It
> should be placed in the Data menu. It is more logical.

Hey kompilainenn,

The Data menu is for working with data already present in your sheet (sort,
autofilter, pivot table, etc), so thats why i dont think that would be the
correct place for it. It used to be Edit > Fill, but was moved from there as
the Edit menu is for edit functions (undo, cut, track changes, edit object,
edit mode). Also we needed to bring all cell related functions under one roof -
insert cell, delete cell, filling cell with data, managing cell comment,
clearing cell data, and changing cell references.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Yousuf (Jay) Philips  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||96473

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #45 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
(In reply to sophie from comment #41)
> Jay, did you changed the help when needed? we won't provide help with false
> indications/explanations in it? If you have a listing of the
> changes/additions, maybe I could work on a FAQ article, do you have such
> list? Sophie

I was able to complete File, Edit and View in all the modules, so it is about
half complete. I dont have a listing of all the changes, but i think Heiko is
working on a list, as well an blog post for the design blog.

(In reply to Michel Rudelle from comment #44)
> May I suggest: There would be a very simple solution like "Named Cells or
> Expressions". It is exhaustive and understandable by all and allowed because
> menu entries can be quite long.

Thanks for the suggestion Michel. Dont know why i didnt think of this myself.
:D

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #43 from sophie  ---
@Miguel Angel: most of the changes are documented in the release notes, see GUI
part for example here
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/5.0#GUI
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/5.1#GUI
and as you can see from here, translators are working on them too 
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Category:ReleaseNotes
I could take the info from here, I was asking for a listing to go faster. 
Let see now if the corresponding help articles have been corrected at the same
time as we discussed it some times ago at the ESC. Sophie

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #40 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
(In reply to m.a.riosv from comment #23)
> Is there any place, explaining the correlation between old menu positions
> and where they are in the new one?, sure there is but I didn't find it.

No nothing like that has been done, but it could be done.

> I hope I'm wrong, but I can't imagine in how many situations we will need to
> explain about this matter.

I would assume we wouldnt need to explain about it other than that the menus
have changed and users should navigate through them to see all the changes, as
not only were entries moved, but new entries were added. It would be no
different from a new user or a user of office 2003 coming to LO and the menus
are a new thing to explore.

> If you were so kind to complete the job and explain also in that place a bit
> about the whys?, it would be helpful on the users support.

What is remaining in the job that you wanted to see completed? The why's are
given in comment 1 and comment 14 of bug 91781.

(In reply to Joel Madero from comment #36)
> 3) I *only* said that *I* could not use the daily with these menus as they
> are in my day-to-day work, this *only* affects the project as far as I can't
> report bugs early as I'm not using master. If I am stuck using 5.0
> indefinitely that's not a terribly bad thing for me personally (it gets the
> job done for me) so as far as that's concerned, not screaming from the
> rooftops to undo everything

If you prefer the 5.0 layout, copy the menubar.xml file from a 5.0 user profile
(e.g.
~/.config/libreofficedev/4/user/config/soffice.cfg/modules/scalc/menubar/menubar.xml)
to a 5.1 user profile. In order for LO to create the menubar.xml file, you have
to go into Tools > Customize, switch to the Menus tab and then move the
'Open...' entry down and then back up.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #41 from sophie  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #40)
> (In reply to m.a.riosv from comment #23)
> > Is there any place, explaining the correlation between old menu positions
> > and where they are in the new one?, sure there is but I didn't find it.
> 
> No nothing like that has been done, but it could be done.

Jay, did you changed the help when needed? we won't provide help with false
indications/explanations in it? If you have a listing of the changes/additions,
maybe I could work on a FAQ article, do you have such list? Sophie

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

m.a.riosv  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC|miguelangelrv@libreoffice.o |
   |rg  |

--- Comment #42 from m.a.riosv  ---
Joel have explained a lot of times that "doers" are libres to do what they
want, so I need to assume that what they do it's always fine for the project,
no explanations, no help, no guide, and of course nobody else have nothing to
say, well we can say but as who preaches in the desert.

Fortunately for the project, the software it's delivery as it is, so no one can
claim about the millions of hours that will be lost around the world, searching
for the new places in the menus, without any help or guide, searching for some
help or guide in the computer or in the web, asking in forums, bothering other
persons, IT services, consultants, etc.

Usually electronic devices need electricity to work, what about the kWh
expended, CO2 emitted? Have been the footprint evaluated. I thought we are
green and responsible.-_-

Who cares about the cost for professionals or companies?, wow, I forget, they
can only give the thanks.

But truly I'm a bit fool worried on this matter, it's easier, every time that
we have some question about anything that's not in the help or anywhere, to
search for who was/were the "doer(s)" and redirect the user to them, because
only them will be able to give an adequate answer, guess I they can, of course
if they come down to earth and wish to do so. The medals and the brightness are
not for free.

I we want to be responsible, the minimum is to put some information in the help
menu or better a new main entry in the menu "Menu changes", at least with the
moved options and where they are, but it's only an idiot's opinion, so the only
way for me to be responsible it's forget this matter.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl

--- Comment #38 from Cor Nouws  ---
has there already be a response on comment #23?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #39 from kompilainenn <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #38)
> has there already be a response on comment #23?

hardly, Yousuf does not like to explain WHY

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #32 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Rafael Strozi from comment #31)
> In my point of view, this kind of changes will be used by 'users' to
> complain us that "the product doesn't work", "I can't do that thing I used
> to do...".

Of course many will.
That does not mean that we do not have to make good changes.
And show users the changes (hoping they will read the information ;) )

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu

--- Comment #33 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Folks,

Other than Cor, and Eike and Sophie's very specific engagement on facets of
this reorganization of the calc menu UI--isn't the rest of this simply
"bikeshedding"?

This is an agreed to process--backed by what metrics were available--and a
strong consensus across the project that the work was required.

Jay, with full Design/UI team support, has lead the effort (and frankly done
most of the work)--with some heavy lifting from a number of the devs. Folks
simply have no idea just how tedious doing this correctly has been.  

Personally--Jay has my complete support, both for his vision and for his
attention to doing the task correctly!  Thank you! Keep going!

Stuart

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #34 from sophie  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #33)
> Folks,
> 
> Other than Cor, and Eike and Sophie's very specific engagement on facets of
> this reorganization of the calc menu UI--isn't the rest of this simply
> "bikeshedding"?
> 
> This is an agreed to process--backed by what metrics were available--and a
> strong consensus across the project that the work was required.
> 
> Jay, with full Design/UI team support, has lead the effort (and frankly done
> most of the work)--with some heavy lifting from a number of the devs. Folks
> simply have no idea just how tedious doing this correctly has been.  
> 
> Personally--Jay has my complete support, both for his vision and for his
> attention to doing the task correctly!  Thank you! Keep going!

+1 Jay (and the design team :) has my full support and my help when he needs it
Cheers
Sophie

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #35 from kompilainenn <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
I understand your support for the Jay, however, is not listening to anyone's
opinions but their own, you will soon encounter rejection users. Without
dialogue with the simple user, you will move the project into the abyss

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #37 from Joel Madero  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #33)
> Folks,
> 
> Other than Cor, and Eike and Sophie's very specific engagement on facets of
> this reorganization of the calc menu UI--isn't the rest of this simply
> "bikeshedding"?
> 

Let's not forget I was the "doer" for the dark ruler patch and you rejected it
with the notion of "someone at some point might be able to do better." It's
interesting how the opinion changes when you agree with the changes

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #26 from m.a.riosv  ---
Hi Joel, I can only agree with you.
May be questions like this one help to reduce some of our disagreements on the
QA process?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #28 from Joel Madero  ---

> First of all it's not just Jay to blame, rather all members of the design
> team. And of course we published a lot in advance. But anyway I think you
> wanted to positively suggest a slow down. Are you sure that users accept
> minor changes but with every update? And does it really make sense to do a
> job half way? I mean moving a few menu items around confuses much more if
> there is not concept in the end.

+1 - probably part of the reason why I said "Jay" instead of "Design team" is
just that I see his commits largely coming through to do these mass tinkerings.
Good to know that it was discussed (due to the lack of time to read . . . 5
sets of minutes per week I apologize for the oversight). 

I'm not sure of anything other than what I said. I know that when I've
suggested changes to UX/UI I get a push back of basically "the status quo is
valuable absent absolute proof that the change will be for the better for the
user" - with toolbar I rarely see that. I see talks about philosophical "best
place to put it" but little talk of "how long have users been using it this way
with this placement and are they going to be confused by the changes" and then
"is their confusion worth the minor gains that are to be had by constant
movement based on some philosophical logic." This reminds me a lot about how
Microsoft forced the Ribbon on people (huge change in one release) - although
of course it's now been largely adopted by MSO user base, there was *harsh*
criticism in the earlier years about forcing such mass changes on users who
were entirely comfortable with the status quo. If the idea is "it's best to
make them swallow the huge pill up front, hope they don't choke, and then
they'll get used to it" is the mentality - then I suppose it might work.

I also know that for me personally (speaking entirely for myself), I've stopped
using dailies for my day to day work because my workflow was so entirely
interrupted. Because of this, I won't be able to report bugs against daily as
often...again I know I'm just one voice, and I'm not the "doer" so - take my
opinion or leave it, either way I'll understand :)


> On the other hand if you have an individually configured toolbar you
> wouldn't see any changes. So a solution for both issues could be to have a
> confirmation dialog for UI changes. When an update is applied the user is
> asked whether or not he or she wants to apply those changes.
> 
> >I'm not interested (nor do I have time) to spend hours debating over the 
> >merits.
> 
> Acknowledged. We will take your opinion into consideration anyway.

Thanks :) I understand that the "doers" decide - the most I can hope for as a
user is simply to consider "my" (although I suspect this may be a criticism
that you'll all have to address when a stable release comes out with these
dramatic changes) opinion.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #29 from kompilainenn <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
discussion interface changes likely not conducted. no publications on this
topic was not. then developers just in a hurry. IMHO should publish the
proposed changes at least in TDF blog to see the reaction of users

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #24 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Yousuf Philips committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=582839394a8224f74ae07dd08f8916352ce48259

tdf#91820 Round of small tweaks to Calc's menu bar

It will be available in 5.1.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #21 from kompilainenn <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
propose items "Clear cells" and "Сell comment" move from menu "Sheet" to menu
"Edit". to operations on sheets, this function has nothing to do, it's just
editing

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #20 from kompilainenn <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
propose item "Fill cells" move from menu "Sheet" to menu "Data", it would be
more correct

filling the cells of the table data - is to work with the data, but not with a
sheet

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #19 from Commit Notification 
libreoffice-comm...@lists.freedesktop.org ---
Yousuf Philips committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to master:

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=f03a700119fc149cf1b93dfafa404b997fc2d4be

tdf#91820 Moved tool items back into Tools menu

It will be available in 5.1.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds
Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #17 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips philip...@hotmail.com ---
(In reply to sophie from comment #16)
 Hi Jay, 

Hi Sophie,

 - Freeze Rows and Columns: where is the possibility to freeze only a column
 or a row?

Go to B1 and you will be able to freeze column A. Go to A2 and you will be able
to freeze row 1.

 - Same for Split window: where is the possibility to split horizontally or
 vertically only?

Same as above.

 - Protect Sheet vs Protect Spreadsheet: Spreadsheet is often seen as the
 tool (which is how it translates) so it has little meaning for most of the
 languages, Document was much more understandable and as Eike, sad that it's
 split now. 

Protecting a sheet or spreadsheet are both edit tools, as it prevents changes
from being made to cells in the sheets or to sheets in a document (
https://help.libreoffice.org/Calc/Protect_Document ), the same as paste and
track changes are edit tools. If it is preferable to keep protect sheet and
protect spreadsheet together, than having protect sheet in the edit menu would
be a good option.

 - Change case: is an often used function in sheet really well hidden now

Format menu is long so there isnt space to have it in the root menu.

 - Format menu: is too long for my screen
 - Sheet menu: is too long for my screen

Await to see the screenshot as they are fine on Windows and Linux on my
1280x768 resolution.

 - Name cells: agreed with Eike, Name Expressions would be more accurate

Will be changed in the upcoming commit and will move it back to insert menu.

 - Clear cell: Strange to see the name of the key attached but it's correctly
 changed if you use legacy shortcuts

Didnt follow.

 - Calculate: why do you change it, it was really more accurate with Cell
 content, only 2 entries on 4 are about calculation.

I thought only autoinput was the only non-calculate one, as AutoCalculate,
Recalculate and Formula to Value all seem to be calculate related.

 - I would move Multiple Operations with the group that calculates the same
 resolutions under Tools. 

Didnt follow.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #18 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips philip...@hotmail.com ---
Sent a patch in to move protect sheet, protect spreadsheet, share spreadsheet,
autoinput back into Tools and named expression back into Edit.

@Sophie: Eike suggested 'Named Expression' and you agreed saying 'Name
Expression'. So which one?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #16 from sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com ---
Hi Jay, 
Some comments on my side too:
- Freeze Rows and Columns: where is the possibility to freeze only a column or
a row?
- Same for Split window: where is the possibility to split horizontally or
vertically only?
- Protect Sheet vs Protect Spreadsheet: Spreadsheet is often seen as the tool
(which is how it translates) so it has little meaning for most of the
languages, Document was much more understandable and as Eike, sad that it's
split now. 
- Change case: is an often used function in sheet really well hidden now
- Format menu: is too long for my screen
- Sheet menu: is too long for my screen
- Name cells: agreed with Eike, Name Expressions would be more accurate
- Clear cell: Strange to see the name of the key attached but it's correctly
changed if you use legacy shortcuts
- Calculate: why do you change it, it was really more accurate with Cell
content, only 2 entries on 4 are about calculation.
- I would move Multiple Operations with the group that calculates the same
resolutions under Tools. 
Will come with more later :) Sophie

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Yousuf (Jay) Philips philip...@hotmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||gautier.sop...@gmail.com

--- Comment #15 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips philip...@hotmail.com ---
(In reply to Eike Rathke from comment #13)
   Yes it would be a change for users who have already know where things have
   been, but that is the case with any change. Better organized menus help 
   both
   old and new users.
 
 I don't consider this situation to be better organized though..

I guess we'll agree to disagree about this.

   So is it better for a user to find protect sheet under Tools  Protect
   Document  Sheet or Sheet  Protect Sheet? Of course i would assume most
   users would simply use the sheet tab context menu for this rather than
   digging into menus.
 
 You would be surprised how many users don't use context menus at all or
 don't even know/recall it does exist and offers different choices for
 different, well, contexts..

About 80 percent of users use context menus in general, as it is easier to
access contextual entries than going into the toolbar or menubar, and if they
are aware that the tabs have a context menu, they are less likely to open the
menubar to access those entries, especially when they are all scattered through
the menubar. Inserting a sheet was in the insert menu, copying and deleting a
sheet was in the Edit menu, hiding and renaming a sheet was in the Format menu
and protecting a sheet was in the Tools menu.

   Should protecting the contents of a spreadsheet from being changed be
   considered a tool or simply an edit function similar to tracking the 
   changes
   being make to a spreadsheet? The tools menu has been known to be a dumping
   ground for functions that didnt seem to go into other menus rather than 
   them
   truly being tools.
  
  The big disadvantage, mentioned by Eike too, is that now protecting is split
  over Sheet and Edit.
 
 That's my point. It's not only a disadvantage, it makes working with the
 UI a bad experience.

The point here is that we find the most suitable place for entries and the most
suitable place to protect a sheet is in the Sheet menu, not in the Tools menu,
as all other sheet type functions are in the Sheet menu.

  For such a situation, using Tools makes sense maybe?
  Similar with Pivot Tables...
  Now we have Insert  Pivot Table and Data  Pivot Table  .. 
  Shrug.
  Maybe it's better to have that in Data, where it is now.

With the way the menus are structured, we dont always have the ability to
always put related things together. When you insert an image you goto the
Insert menu, but when you want to modify that image, you go to the Format menu.
So if a user was told to insert a pivot table into their spreadsheet, they
would likely go into the Insert menu to do so, similar to how they open that
menu to insert a image or chart.

 And also move all Protect actions there. At the end you want to protect
 your data.

So if the Data menu is to be used for do things with data, should hiding that
data also go under that menu? Meaning should we have Data  Hide Sheet.

(In reply to Eike Rathke from comment #14)
 (In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #10)
 * Cell Comment
   * Has an unselectable blank first submenu entry that probably should
 read Insert Comment.
  
  It was named as 'Edit Comment' in my June 11th patch.
 
 And is displayed now, but ... now we have Edit, Show, Hide and Delete,
 all greyed out if there is no comment at the current position, but no
 entry to insert a comment from that menu. I know it is in the Insert
 menu and in the context menu, but not having it in the menu there
 together with all other comment related actions is odd.

As stated above, we cant always have all related entries together. If Insert 
Comment wasnt the default location in all other apps, i would have considered
moving it there.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #13 from Eike Rathke er...@redhat.com ---
Coming back to this one..
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #12)
 * Names Cells
   * Was in the Insert menu as Names.
   * The new name Names Cells doesn't make sense; if we change the
 name then to Named Expressions, but not to Names Cells.
 
 @eike: why 'Named Expressions'? 

In the dialog you can name a cell area (range) but also enter a formula
expression. Within the dialog we use range or formula expression as
label for the edit field. A reference is a subexpression (can be used as
part of a formula), the unifying term for all you can enter there is
named expression.


   * It is very unfortunate to move the Tools' Protect Document menu
 entry that had a submenu with Document and Sheet away from the
 Tools menu AND split it up and scatter over two different menus
 AND rename the entries. Imagine how confused users will be who
 want to use the functionality. Already I was when I wanted to
 unprotect a document..
  
  Yes it would be a change for users who have already know where things have
  been, but that is the case with any change. Better organized menus help both
  old and new users.

I don't consider this situation to be better organized though..

  So is it better for a user to find protect sheet under Tools  Protect
  Document  Sheet or Sheet  Protect Sheet? Of course i would assume most
  users would simply use the sheet tab context menu for this rather than
  digging into menus.

You would be surprised how many users don't use context menus at all or
don't even know/recall it does exist and offers different choices for
different, well, contexts..

  Should protecting the contents of a spreadsheet from being changed be
  considered a tool or simply an edit function similar to tracking the changes
  being make to a spreadsheet? The tools menu has been known to be a dumping
  ground for functions that didnt seem to go into other menus rather than them
  truly being tools.
 
 The big disadvantage, mentioned by Eike too, is that now protecting is split
 over Sheet and Edit.

That's my point. It's not only a disadvantage, it makes working with the
UI a bad experience.

 For such a situation, using Tools makes sense maybe?
 Similar with Pivot Tables...
 Now we have Insert  Pivot Table and Data  Pivot Table  .. 
 Shrug.
 Maybe it's better to have that in Data, where it is now.

And also move all Protect actions there. At the end you want to protect
your data.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #14 from Eike Rathke er...@redhat.com ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #10)
* Cell Comment
  * Has an unselectable blank first submenu entry that probably should
read Insert Comment.
 
 It was named as 'Edit Comment' in my June 11th patch.

And is displayed now, but ... now we have Edit, Show, Hide and Delete,
all greyed out if there is no comment at the current position, but no
entry to insert a comment from that menu. I know it is in the Insert
menu and in the context menu, but not having it in the menu there
together with all other comment related actions is odd.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Yousuf (Jay) Philips philip...@hotmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=66
   ||447

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #11 from Cor Nouws c...@nouenoff.nl ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #7)
 (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #6)
   OK clear, thanks.
   
   So do you have a preference here?
  
  I think the change is good.
 
 I changed it from 'Freeze Panes' to 'Freeze Rows and Columns' as i'd assume
 most people would know what panes are, me included. :D

Maybe it helps. But as many items: people have to learn what it is first.
The position in View rather then Window does not change that.
 
   So are the 3 calculate items correct to place under Data?
  
  In fact it is a mixed group, about calculation and auto-Input. And AutoImput
  is really a tool :)
 
 So you okay with moving AutoInput to Tools and keeping the rest under Data?

I think it would be OK below Autocorrect options yes.

   It is not as cluttered as most menus as it has 20 items in it, while the
   sheet menu has 25 items in it. The menu had 16 items in it before i made
   changes to it.
  
  It adds cluttering because Filter is mentioned twice in the main menu.
  It hurts to my eyes. May be only me?
  (No others interested in Cal  ?) 
 
 Well i'm hoping you never open the File menu, as save is mentioned 4 times.
 :D

That is a wrong argument. In other menu's where items are repeated, _all_ the
items are in the same menu, and not some in the menu and some in a submenu.

   Not yet, no. But again we face a situation where part of the entries can 
   be
   considered to apply for sheets as well as for different components, I'm
   afraid.
   
   Yes that is always a challenge, so we try to make the best possible that
   fits best.

I do like the most changes definitely.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #12 from Cor Nouws c...@nouenoff.nl ---
Hi Jay, Eike,

(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #10)
 Glad to get your input on this as you the calc maintainer. :D
 
 (In reply to Eike Rathke from comment #9)
  * Sheet
* Fill Cells
  * Was in the Edit menu as Fill.
  * Makes more sense in the Edit menu, because filling cells is an
edit action, not a sheet action.
 
 Pretty much everything that is done in calc involves edit/modifying of a
 sheet/column/row/cell, which is why quite a number of these functions were
 moved from the edit and insert menus into a dedicated Sheet menu. So now a
 user can go into Sheet to insert or delete a cell, as well as fill or clear
 a cell. The name Sheet encompasses all features of a sheet, similar to the
 Table menu in writer encompasses all features of a table.

It's new, but not bad.

* Names Cells
  * Was in the Insert menu as Names.
  * The new name Names Cells doesn't make sense; if we change the
name then to Named Expressions, but not to Names Cells.

@eike: why 'Named Expressions'? 

  * May make more sense in the Insert menu, because named expressions
and ranges more often are document global than sheet local.
However, Insert isn't the exact functionality, but Sheet isn't the
exact functionality either.
 
 It was renamed to 'Name Cells' in my June 11th patch as a user is defining a
 name for a group of cells on the current sheet or globally for the
 spreadsheet. 'Naming Cells' is another possible as that is what we use in
 the help - https://help.libreoffice.org/Calc/Naming_Cells
 
 Yes its hard to always know the best possible place to put it, but if i had
 to choose between insert and sheet, it would be sheet, as the Insert menu
 contains elements that are visibly seen and inserted in a sheet, while
 defining a name to a group of cells is more like setting a reference on a
 sheet.
 
* Cell Comment
  * Has an unselectable blank first submenu entry that probably should
read Insert Comment.
 
 It was named as 'Edit Comment' in my June 11th patch.
 
  * Edit
* Protect Spreadsheet
  * Why was this renamed from Protect Document? Spreadsheet is
confusingly similar to Sheet.
 
 The use of document in libreoffice is primarily linked to writer, as we have
 'Writer Document' in the start center and we have 'Text documents' in the
 open dialog. While calc has 'Calc Spreadsheet' in the start center,
 'Spreadsheets' in the open dialog and ODF Spreadsheet in the save dialog. I
 doubt users would not know the difference between a spreadsheet and a sheet
 and if they dont, it is a good opportunity to teach them the difference by
 using the word spreadsheet more.

I think people will simply understand Protect document. No need to change that.

* The entries immediately above are Merge Document and Compare
  Document.
 
 Yes those would likely also need to be changed.
 
  * It is very unfortunate to move the Tools' Protect Document menu
entry that had a submenu with Document and Sheet away from the
Tools menu AND split it up and scatter over two different menus
AND rename the entries. Imagine how confused users will be who
want to use the functionality. Already I was when I wanted to
unprotect a document..
 
 Yes it would be a change for users who have already know where things have
 been, but that is the case with any change. Better organized menus help both
 old and new users.
 
 So is it better for a user to find protect sheet under Tools  Protect
 Document  Sheet or Sheet  Protect Sheet? Of course i would assume most
 users would simply use the sheet tab context menu for this rather than
 digging into menus.
 
 Should protecting the contents of a spreadsheet from being changed be
 considered a tool or simply an edit function similar to tracking the changes
 being make to a spreadsheet? The tools menu has been known to be a dumping
 ground for functions that didnt seem to go into other menus rather than them
 truly being tools.

The big disadvantage, mentioned by Eike too, is that now protecting is split
over Sheet and Edit.
For such a situation, using Tools makes sense maybe?

Similar with Pivot Tables...
Now we have Insert  Pivot Table and Data  Pivot Table  .. 
Shrug.
Maybe it's better to have that in Data, where it is now.

Cheers,
Cor

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #10 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips philip...@hotmail.com ---
Hi Eike,

Glad to get your input on this as you the calc maintainer. :D

(In reply to Eike Rathke from comment #9)
 * Sheet
   * Fill Cells
 * Was in the Edit menu as Fill.
 * Makes more sense in the Edit menu, because filling cells is an
   edit action, not a sheet action.

Pretty much everything that is done in calc involves edit/modifying of a
sheet/column/row/cell, which is why quite a number of these functions were
moved from the edit and insert menus into a dedicated Sheet menu. So now a user
can go into Sheet to insert or delete a cell, as well as fill or clear a cell.
The name Sheet encompasses all features of a sheet, similar to the Table menu
in writer encompasses all features of a table.

   * Names Cells
 * Was in the Insert menu as Names.
 * The new name Names Cells doesn't make sense; if we change the
   name then to Named Expressions, but not to Names Cells.
 * May make more sense in the Insert menu, because named expressions
   and ranges more often are document global than sheet local.
   However, Insert isn't the exact functionality, but Sheet isn't the
   exact functionality either.

It was renamed to 'Name Cells' in my June 11th patch as a user is defining a
name for a group of cells on the current sheet or globally for the spreadsheet.
'Naming Cells' is another possible as that is what we use in the help -
https://help.libreoffice.org/Calc/Naming_Cells

Yes its hard to always know the best possible place to put it, but if i had to
choose between insert and sheet, it would be sheet, as the Insert menu contains
elements that are visibly seen and inserted in a sheet, while defining a name
to a group of cells is more like setting a reference on a sheet.

   * Cell Comment
 * Has an unselectable blank first submenu entry that probably should
   read Insert Comment.

It was named as 'Edit Comment' in my June 11th patch.

 * Edit
   * Protect Spreadsheet
 * Why was this renamed from Protect Document? Spreadsheet is
   confusingly similar to Sheet.

The use of document in libreoffice is primarily linked to writer, as we have
'Writer Document' in the start center and we have 'Text documents' in the open
dialog. While calc has 'Calc Spreadsheet' in the start center, 'Spreadsheets'
in the open dialog and ODF Spreadsheet in the save dialog. I doubt users would
not know the difference between a spreadsheet and a sheet and if they dont, it
is a good opportunity to teach them the difference by using the word
spreadsheet more.

   * The entries immediately above are Merge Document and Compare
 Document.

Yes those would likely also need to be changed.

 * It is very unfortunate to move the Tools' Protect Document menu
   entry that had a submenu with Document and Sheet away from the
   Tools menu AND split it up and scatter over two different menus
   AND rename the entries. Imagine how confused users will be who
   want to use the functionality. Already I was when I wanted to
   unprotect a document..

Yes it would be a change for users who have already know where things have
been, but that is the case with any change. Better organized menus help both
old and new users.

So is it better for a user to find protect sheet under Tools  Protect Document
 Sheet or Sheet  Protect Sheet? Of course i would assume most users would
simply use the sheet tab context menu for this rather than digging into menus.

Should protecting the contents of a spreadsheet from being changed be
considered a tool or simply an edit function similar to tracking the changes
being make to a spreadsheet? The tools menu has been known to be a dumping
ground for functions that didnt seem to go into other menus rather than them
truly being tools.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #9 from Eike Rathke er...@redhat.com ---
I'm not happy with all details of this change, in particular:

* Sheet
  * Fill Cells
* Was in the Edit menu as Fill.
* Makes more sense in the Edit menu, because filling cells is an
  edit action, not a sheet action.
  * Names Cells
* Was in the Insert menu as Names.
* The new name Names Cells doesn't make sense; if we change the
  name then to Named Expressions, but not to Names Cells.
* May make more sense in the Insert menu, because named expressions
  and ranges more often are document global than sheet local.
  However, Insert isn't the exact functionality, but Sheet isn't the
  exact functionality either.
  * Cell Comment
* Has an unselectable blank first submenu entry that probably should
  read Insert Comment.
* Edit
  * Protect Spreadsheet
* Why was this renamed from Protect Document? Spreadsheet is
  confusingly similar to Sheet.
  * The entries immediately above are Merge Document and Compare
Document.
* It is very unfortunate to move the Tools' Protect Document menu
  entry that had a submenu with Document and Sheet away from the
  Tools menu AND split it up and scatter over two different menus
  AND rename the entries. Imagine how confused users will be who
  want to use the functionality. Already I was when I wanted to
  unprotect a document..

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #8 from Commit Notification 
libreoffice-comm...@lists.freedesktop.org ---
Yousuf Philips committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to master:

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=cdd7ef358d8e97ebf13431b78337f61ad5c2c01a

tdf#91820 Minor fixes and fix icon links

It will be available in 5.1.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds
Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #6 from Cor Nouws c...@nouenoff.nl ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #4)
 (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #3)
 Why do you rename Freeze to Freeze panes ?
 
 The word 'Freeze' by itself has no meaning. It had no meaning as Window 
 Freeze as you are not actually freezing the window. Freeze panes is used in
 Excel, but we could use Freeze Rows/Columns if that is more preferable.
 
 OK clear, thanks.
 
 So do you have a preference here?

I think the change is good.

 Tools
 Cell contents - I miss this. It is not about Data as the function in that
 menu.
 
 This was moved and to Data  Calculate as the entries are to recalculate
 data.
 
 It is also about AutoInput. So that argument is not correct.
 
 So are the 3 calculate items correct to place under Data?

In fact it is a mixed group, about calculation and auto-Input. And AutoImput is
really a tool :)

 We had another discussion on the position of the Tools menu. Do I see that
 it is missed here?
 
 No we had discussions about it during the HIG work and decided that Tools
 would always be next to Window for consistency of the menu bar.
 
 I brought forward long time ago, that the applied sequence is
 File-...-Format-Tools. And all module specific menu's between Tools and
 Window. So that was the originally chosen consistency.
 (With the sole exception that Table was added in Writer later)
 But I do not think that I prefer the one consistency over the other.
 
 Guess my words werent clear when i wrote that sentence. Yes we (me and you)
 discussed the issue in the past and then we (me and heiko) discussed it as
 part of the HIG. In the HIG we decided that we need to consistency across
 apps, so it was preferred to have the least opened menus (tools, windows,
 help) to the end together, like in writer.

One can also say: all between File and Tools is consequent (I read in the
Writer issue that there is still a search for that holy grail :) ) and that the
rest before view is app-specific.
I have no strong preference here.

 Data
 AutoFilter and More filters.. I would not do that. Shortcut Data  Filter
 immediately offers AutoFilter
 
 The stats showed that 78% of users who opened the Data  Filter submenu went
 for AutoFilter and it is the second most used entry in the Data menu, so it
 is important that it be not in a submenu.
 
 It is important that is is easy accessible. It is now since it's at top in
 the submenu.
 Furthermore with the change the first menu will be more cluttered.
 
 It is not as cluttered as most menus as it has 20 items in it, while the
 sheet menu has 25 items in it. The menu had 16 items in it before i made
 changes to it.

It adds cluttering because Filter is mentioned twice in the main menu.
It hurts to my eyes. May be only me?
(No others interested in Cal  ?) 

 Sheet
 Interesting idea..

 Yes i wondered what would be the best possible name for it. Any suggestions?
 
 Not yet, no. But again we face a situation where part of the entries can be
 considered to apply for sheets as well as for different components, I'm
 afraid.
 
 Yes that is always a challenge, so we try to make the best possible that
 fits best.

Still going on. Thanks for that!
Cor

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #7 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips philip...@hotmail.com ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #6)
  OK clear, thanks.
  
  So do you have a preference here?
 
 I think the change is good.

I changed it from 'Freeze Panes' to 'Freeze Rows and Columns' as i'd assume
most people would know what panes are, me included. :D

  So are the 3 calculate items correct to place under Data?
 
 In fact it is a mixed group, about calculation and auto-Input. And AutoImput
 is really a tool :)

So you okay with moving AutoInput to Tools and keeping the rest under Data?

  Guess my words werent clear when i wrote that sentence. Yes we (me and you)
  discussed the issue in the past and then we (me and heiko) discussed it as
  part of the HIG. In the HIG we decided that we need to consistency across
  apps, so it was preferred to have the least opened menus (tools, windows,
  help) to the end together, like in writer.
 
 One can also say: all between File and Tools is consequent (I read in the
 Writer issue that there is still a search for that holy grail :) ) and that
 the rest before view is app-specific.
 I have no strong preference here.

I believe it is quite similar to our toolbars, where we put the most important
buttons on the left (new, open, save) and less important on the right (draw
tools).

  It is not as cluttered as most menus as it has 20 items in it, while the
  sheet menu has 25 items in it. The menu had 16 items in it before i made
  changes to it.
 
 It adds cluttering because Filter is mentioned twice in the main menu.
 It hurts to my eyes. May be only me?
 (No others interested in Cal  ?) 

Well i'm hoping you never open the File menu, as save is mentioned 4 times. :D

  Not yet, no. But again we face a situation where part of the entries can be
  considered to apply for sheets as well as for different components, I'm
  afraid.
  
  Yes that is always a challenge, so we try to make the best possible that
  fits best.
 
 Still going on. Thanks for that!

LibreOffice is a never ending story.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #5 from Commit Notification 
libreoffice-comm...@lists.freedesktop.org ---
Yousuf Philips committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to master:

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=ce5470cb3eb7e5394ef1d7cb1906886abab80d5d

tdf#91820 Reorganize calc's menu bar

It will be available in 5.1.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds
Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Commit Notification libreoffice-comm...@lists.freedesktop.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Whiteboard|| target:5.1.0

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Yousuf (Jay) Philips philip...@hotmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91
   ||857

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

--- Comment #4 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips philip...@hotmail.com ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #3)
   Why do you rename Freeze to Freeze panes ?
  
  The word 'Freeze' by itself has no meaning. It had no meaning as Window 
  Freeze as you are not actually freezing the window. Freeze panes is used in
  Excel, but we could use Freeze Rows/Columns if that is more preferable.
 
 OK clear, thanks.

So do you have a preference here?

   Tools
   Cell contents - I miss this. It is not about Data as the function in that
   menu.
  
  This was moved and to Data  Calculate as the entries are to recalculate
  data.
 
 It is also about AutoInput. So that argument is not correct.

So are the 3 calculate items correct to place under Data?

   We had another discussion on the position of the Tools menu. Do I see that
   it is missed here?
  
  No we had discussions about it during the HIG work and decided that Tools
  would always be next to Window for consistency of the menu bar.
 
 I brought forward long time ago, that the applied sequence is
 File-...-Format-Tools. And all module specific menu's between Tools and
 Window. So that was the originally chosen consistency.
 (With the sole exception that Table was added in Writer later)
 But I do not think that I prefer the one consistency over the other.

Guess my words werent clear when i wrote that sentence. Yes we (me and you)
discussed the issue in the past and then we (me and heiko) discussed it as part
of the HIG. In the HIG we decided that we need to consistency across apps, so
it was preferred to have the least opened menus (tools, windows, help) to the
end together, like in writer.

   Data
   AutoFilter and More filters.. I would not do that. Shortcut Data  Filter
   immediately offers AutoFilter
  
  The stats showed that 78% of users who opened the Data  Filter submenu went
  for AutoFilter and it is the second most used entry in the Data menu, so it
  is important that it be not in a submenu.
 
 It is important that is is easy accessible. It is now since it's at top in
 the submenu.
 Furthermore with the change the first menu will be more cluttered.

It is not as cluttered as most menus as it has 20 items in it, while the sheet
menu has 25 items in it. The menu had 16 items in it before i made changes to
it.

   Sheet
   Interesting idea..
  
  Yes i wondered what would be the best possible name for it. Any suggestions?
 
 Not yet, no. But again we face a situation where part of the entries can be
 considered to apply for sheets as well as for different components, I'm
 afraid.

Yes that is always a challenge, so we try to make the best possible that fits
best.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Cor Nouws c...@nouenoff.nl changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEEDINFO
 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #1 from Cor Nouws c...@nouenoff.nl ---
Hi Jay,

Question: what is the work based on, comments, experience, study, comparing
with other software, ...?
I see a interesting change ahead for users, writers, documentation teams,
trainers..

Some comments:

Edit
Merge document is a function limited to documents with tracked changes. It must
be in that sub menu.

View
Print preview limits editing possibilities, unlike Normal/page break. I would
keep it with File  Print
Why do you rename Freeze to Freeze panes ?

Tools
Cell contents - I miss this. It is not about Data as the function in that menu.

We had another discussion on the position of the Tools menu. Do I see that it
is missed here?

Data
AutoFilter and More filters.. I would not do that. Shortcut Data  Filter
immediately offers AutoFilter

Sheet
Interesting idea..

Thanks!
Cor

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91820] Reorganization of the menu bar for Calc

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91820

Yousuf (Jay) Philips philip...@hotmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|NEW
   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91
   ||781

--- Comment #2 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips philip...@hotmail.com ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #1)
 Question: what is the work based on, comments, experience, study, comparing
 with other software, ...?

As stated in the description of bug 91781, I have already completed the
reorganization with the help of the OOo user stats, as well as analyzing a
number of competing word processors. So basically i've used the same method
i've used to improve the toolbar and context menus.

 Some comments:
 
 Edit
 Merge document is a function limited to documents with tracked changes. It
 must be in that sub menu.

Answered in bug 91781 comment 11.

 View
 Print preview limits editing possibilities, unlike Normal/page break. I
 would keep it with File  Print

Answered in bug 91781 comment 11.

 Why do you rename Freeze to Freeze panes ?

The word 'Freeze' by itself has no meaning. It had no meaning as Window 
Freeze as you are not actually freezing the window. Freeze panes is used in
Excel, but we could use Freeze Rows/Columns if that is more preferable.

 Tools
 Cell contents - I miss this. It is not about Data as the function in that
 menu.

This was moved and to Data  Calculate as the entries are to recalculate data.

 We had another discussion on the position of the Tools menu. Do I see that
 it is missed here?

No we had discussions about it during the HIG work and decided that Tools would
always be next to Window for consistency of the menu bar.

 Data
 AutoFilter and More filters.. I would not do that. Shortcut Data  Filter
 immediately offers AutoFilter

The stats showed that 78% of users who opened the Data  Filter submenu went
for AutoFilter and it is the second most used entry in the Data menu, so it is
important that it be not in a submenu.

 Sheet
 Interesting idea..

Yes i wondered what would be the best possible name for it. Any suggestions?

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