[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 98333] Bringing uniformity to styles shortcuts
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98333 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Status|NEW |RESOLVED Resolution|--- |WONTFIX --- Comment #20 from Heiko Tietze --- We discussed the topic in the design meeting. The discussion hasn't progressed so far and is quite controversial. Users are familiar with the existing shortcuts and may see any change as a regression. So the conclusion is to resolve this request as WF. At least as long bug 123768 is not done. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 98333] Bringing uniformity to styles shortcuts
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98333 Yousuf Philips (jay) changed: What|Removed |Added Component|Writer |LibreOffice -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 98333] Bringing uniformity to styles shortcuts
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98333 --- Comment #19 from Cor Nouws --- why Writer, Heiko? see comment #0 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 98333] Bringing uniformity to styles shortcuts
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98333 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Component|LibreOffice |Writer -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 98333] Bringing uniformity to styles shortcuts
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98333 --- Comment #16 from Heiko Tietze --- From the W7 HIG: * Use function keys for commands that have a small-scale effect, such as commands that apply to the selected object. For example, F2 renames the selected item. * Use Ctrl key combinations for commands that have a large-scale effect, such as commands that apply to an entire document. For example, Ctrl+S saves the current document. * Use Shift key combinations for commands that extend or complement the actions of the standard shortcut key. For example, the Alt+Tab shortcut key cycles through open primary windows, whereas Alt+Shift+Tab cycles in the reverse order. Similarly, F1 displays Help, whereas Shift+F1 display context-sensitive Help. * Don’t use the following characters for shortcut keys: @ £ $ {} [] \ ~ | ^ ' < >. These characters require different key combinations across languages or are locale specific. * Don’t use Ctrl+Alt combinations, because Windows interprets this combination in some language versions as an AltGR key, which generates alphanumeric characters. Not sure if we have to adopt this guideline. Personally I'm always afraid of using ctrl/alt modifiers together with function keys because of switching to another terminal. And I can hardly imagine that any three-finger salute is really used in the wild. We should consider to drop those shortcuts - or reserve it for the least important functions. In other words the more important a function is or the more frequently it is being used the less modifiers it has to use. Ctrl + F11 - Styles & Formatting (Changes to F11 make sense only when we also free the other single functions keys. So this would makes it necessary to use Ctrl+F5 for Navigator and Ctrl+F4 for Data Source.) Ctrl + Shift + F11 - Set focus to combobox (.uno:ActivateStyleApply) Ctrl + Alt + F11 - New Style Ctrl + Alt + Shift + F11 - Update Style To add another argument: We have Ctrl+1..9 to set some style directly, so why not use Ctrl+0 (or ^) instead of F11? I know it breaks all familiarization... And last but not least about transition: We need a better customization regarding toolbar/sidebar setup anyway. We could (or rather should) add shortcuts. And since the idea is to have an option to switch between different layouts it could be possible to activate either the old LibO4 shortcut layout or anything else. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 98333] Bringing uniformity to styles shortcuts
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98333 --- Comment #14 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips --- (In reply to Eike Rathke from comment #11) > Shift+Ctrl+Anything requires two hands to hit. Using that for something > basic and outstanding as the Stylist or Navigator is an un-usability. We have many common shortcut that require two hands to hit that are even more basic than stylist or navigator, e.g. Ctrl + P (Print), Ctrl + O (Open), Ctrl + N (New). On Mac, users have to use two hands to hit any of the Function keys, as they have to press the Fn key as well. > Additionally, both features are something that other office suites don't > offer and that help to organize the document and its formatting, MS Office has both a stylist (http://www.addbalance.com/usersguide/images/stylesFPane2010.gif) and navigator (http://www.dkszone.net/editing-in-ms-word-2010-simplified-with), though not as powerful/extensive as the one found in LO. Both of these tools are useful for those who utilize them. > users of > some other suite don't even know styles or the possibilities the Navigator > offers. Easy accessibility is a key to promote these further. Particular users of all office suites dont know/use styles and having a stylist in LO wont change that behaviour. There are users who use styles (normally more advanced users) and users who dont use styles (normally less advanced users) and that wont ever change unless direct formatting is completely eliminated. In the same way, we have users who may use the Navigator (advanced users) and users who likely wont (non-advanced users). We should make the stylist and navigator available to those who use it, but we should avoid assigning them to shortcut keys that are an OS standard for something else in order to improve LO integrate with those OSes and reduce the learning curve for users. Imagine what users would say if we has assigned Ctrl + Z to anything else but undo. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 98333] Bringing uniformity to styles shortcuts
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98333 --- Comment #15 from Cor Nouws --- Hi Jay, (In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #14) > We have many common shortcut that require two hands to hit that are even > more basic than stylist or navigator, e.g. Ctrl + P (Print), Ctrl + O > (Open), Ctrl + N (New). On Mac, users have to use two hands to hit any of > the Function keys, as they have to press the Fn key as well. It might be because I use Ctrl+P and Ctr+O quite seldom, or because Ctrl+Shift asks for a little twist and/combined with the move from my right hand to the left side of the key board, that for me this has a different weight. I can't imagine that it is because we get old and grumpy... isn't it, Eike ? > > Additionally, both features are something that other office suites don't > > offer and that help to organize the document and its formatting, > > MS Office has both a stylist > (http://www.addbalance.com/usersguide/images/stylesFPane2010.gif) and > navigator (http://www.dkszone.net/editing-in-ms-word-2010-simplified-with), I never liked that styles window, but maybe it is better now. After all. MsOffice improves too, as they do with a simple version of the Navigator. > though not as powerful/extensive as the one found in LO. Both of these tools > are useful for those who utilize them. Sure. > Particular users of all office suites dont know/use styles and having a > stylist in LO wont change that behaviour. There are users who use styles > (normally more advanced users) and users who dont use styles (normally less > advanced users) and that wont ever change unless direct formatting is > completely eliminated. In the same way, we have users who may use the > Navigator (advanced users) and users who likely wont (non-advanced users). > > We should make the stylist and navigator available to those who use it, but > we should avoid assigning them to shortcut keys that are an OS standard for > something else in order to improve LO integrate with those OSes and reduce > the learning curve for users. Imagine what users would say if we has > assigned Ctrl + Z to anything else but undo. Maybe indeed for new/basic users, good visibility in the Side bar is more important, yes. Cheers - Cor -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 98333] Bringing uniformity to styles shortcuts
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98333 --- Comment #13 from Cor Nouws --- (In reply to Eike Rathke from comment #11) > Shift+Ctrl+Anything requires two hands to hit. Using that for something > basic and outstanding as the Stylist or Navigator is an un-usability. > Additionally, both features are something that other office suites don't > offer and that help to organize the document and its formatting, users of > some other suite don't even know styles or the possibilities the Navigator > offers. Easy accessibility is a key to promote these further. To be honest: I fully agree. (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #12) > F4 for Data Sources, F5 for Navigator, and F11 all as single key short-cuts > assigned to launch Styles & Formatting dialogs predate implementation of GUI > Sidebar offering single button widget activation. Does it make sense to compare short cuts with using a mouse? > Shifting these shortcuts to be multi-key entry using assignments for > KEY_MOD1, KEY_MOD2, SHIFT presents few true short-term hardships but has > advantage of allowing us to reduce collisions with OS reserved keys or HIG > recommendations. Reduce collision with OS reserved, makes sense. Recommendations should help, and if not, be ignored in specific cases. > We've already gutted most menu structure and accelerator assignments--IMHO > this is just a continuation of the process. Painful in the transitional > phase, but freeing the UI implementation for a better and more consistent UX. Better in the sense that important features are hard to access.. I guess we have to think about an extension to make important functions easy accessible again. :\ -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 98333] Bringing uniformity to styles shortcuts
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98333 --- Comment #17 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #16) > * Don’t use the following characters for shortcut keys: @ £ $ {} [] \ ~ | ^ > ' < >. These characters require different key combinations across languages > or are locale specific. I guess this is where Mac differs from Windows, as its HIG utilizes { | } and iWork utilizes [ ] < > '. > Ctrl + F11 - Styles & Formatting (Changes to F11 make sense only when we > also free the other single functions keys. So this would makes it necessary > to use Ctrl+F5 for Navigator and Ctrl+F4 for Data Source.) Not possible to use Ctrl+F4 as that is a reserved shortcut to close the application. > > Ctrl + Alt + F11 - New Style You are correct that this wouldnt work on Linux. > Ctrl + Alt + Shift + F11 - Update Style > These two would likely need shortcuts not involving F11 > To add another argument: We have Ctrl+1..9 to set some style directly, so > why not use Ctrl+0 (or ^) instead of F11? I know it breaks all > familiarization... Ctrl + 0 is taken by the 'Text body' paragraph style in Writer and Ctrl + Shift + 6 is taken in Calc for a number format. > And last but not least about transition: We need a better customization > regarding toolbar/sidebar setup anyway. We could (or rather should) add > shortcuts. Sidebar shortcuts discussion is here (bug 84502). > And since the idea is to have an option to switch between > different layouts it could be possible to activate either the old LibO4 > shortcut layout or anything else. This has been implemented in Calc, but isnt available in other apps. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 98333] Bringing uniformity to styles shortcuts
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98333 V Stuart Foote changed: What|Removed |Added CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists ||.freedesktop.org Component|LibreOffice |ux-advise --- Comment #12 from V Stuart Foote --- To UX-advise to resolve merit of doing this consolidation. https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/23201/ Sorry Eike, understand the appeal of maintaining status quo, but the Short-cut consolidation really is long overdue. F4 for Data Sources, F5 for Navigator, and F11 all as single key short-cuts assigned to launch Styles & Formatting dialogs predate implementation of GUI Sidebar offering single button widget activation. Shifting these shortcuts to be multi-key entry using assignments for KEY_MOD1, KEY_MOD2, SHIFT presents few true short-term hardships but has advantage of allowing us to reduce collisions with OS reserved keys or HIG recommendations. We've already gutted most menu structure and accelerator assignments--IMHO this is just a continuation of the process. Painful in the transitional phase, but freeing the UI implementation for a better and more consistent UX. Key to getting the transition done and accepted by users is to make it consistent and to not drag it out over multiple releases. And to follow-up in documentation, both the built-in/online help and in Wiki topical pages. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 98333] Bringing uniformity to styles shortcuts
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98333 Yousuf (Jay) Philips changed: What|Removed |Added Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists | |.freedesktop.org| Ever confirmed|0 |1 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise