Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Cor, my time is very sparse as well. Sorry for the delay. Le 26/09/2013 21:05, Cor Nouws a écrit : -- styles and formatting window: possibility of hiding styles This allows document creators to have a set of basic styles which won't be used by the final users. These only see the styles they are meant to apply. AFAIK, the current hiding mechanism do support that well. Can you pls explain what misses? Yes. In a business/administrative environment, it is quite often that some people create the templates that are to be used company-wide. In this situation, the template-makers may create basis styles that are then given children for actual use by final users. EG : I may set a paragraph style MyBasis with all the basic settings for all my documents. Then, when I derive real styles for different documents, they inherit from that basis style. The basis style is not meant for users but only for styles conception. What I'd like, and unless I missed smthg here, is the ability to hide the basis style from the users view. IOW, only give users a view on what they really need to complete their job in their context. Hopefully I was clear enough, that time. All the best, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Jean-Fraincois, * [ picking up this thread, now/as far as time allows ] Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote (19-09-13 07:14) Le 18/09/2013 17:16, Cor Nouws a écrit : It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a useful way. \o/ Yeah! I love you! Go for it! We *need* that! Styles are the very feature that distinguishes LibO. It should be highly publicised. My idea :) BTW, enhancements to styles are possible: -- styles and formatting window: possibility of hiding styles This allows document creators to have a set of basic styles which won't be used by the final users. These only see the styles they are meant to apply. AFAIK, the current hiding mechanism do support that well. Can you pls explain what misses? -- Table styles A long-time missing feature GSOC (I see the coder sitting rght in front of me at the Hackaton in Milan ;) ) -- Simplify the list styles (though I do like them) and probably others... TBC.. Cheers, Cor -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi David, dollyp wrote (06-09-13 23:11) I don't agree with your comments about the sidebar eating space. Using Writer on a widescreen notebook I prefer the option to have things down the side of the screen so that the maximum vertical space is available, but with Sheet a wider display is preferable. I can agree with that. My comment was based that we have now space taken above and at the side, both for the same (direct formatting). So the first problem with sidebars as currently implemented is that sidebar setting is universal, i.e. you can't have a sidebar with Writer but not with Sheet (don't do enough with Impress to know what would be best). I thought Regina explained that you can minimize it per module with the cross. I do agree with you that the sidebar could promote bad habits, but then since the buttons on it are the same as the formatting toolbar moving to a sidebar is really no more likely to lead to bad habits. Direct formatting is less effective than using styles but LO's styles are if anything more confusing to the average user than MSO's. I do like your screen shot of a styles sidebar layout; even better would be if the styles appeared as samples. Yes, that is just a simple idea for improving. I'm so pleased that LO is beginning to improve the UX. Less and less people are learning with MSO2003 so there will be fewer MS-educated users prepared to move to LO's seemingly outdated UX, and before anyone complains at that I am one of those who have moved to LO to avoid the move to the MS ribbon. My daughter, still at school, thinks LO is awful compared to what she has learned to use. This first sidebar effort has its rough edges but I see it as only the first step, and am very happy and grateful to our developers for it. Me too. Thanks for your ideas, Cor -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Jean-Baptiste, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote (10-09-13 07:54) I do not agree with that except in the case of Calc. In Writer I work always with the Navigator and/or the Stylist open. With the Sidebar, I can close the Formatting toolbar and gain vertical space. Yes, that is the idea. I think the sidebar lacks the ability to embed whatever toolbar. For example, in Writer, Bullets and Numbering, Table or Insert toolbars. Looks in line with the pane wishes Mirek write about :) Another nice feature of the Sidebar could be to partially close it, keeping visible only its small vertical button bar. So you could be able to reopen the panel you need with one click. Currently, you need to reopen the Sidebar then click the panel button. [Thanks to Regina for answering this ;) ] Ciao! Cor -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Mirek, Mirek M. wrote (09-09-13 14:46) I share your sentiments about the sidebar. It should definitely be hidden by default, as it adds minimal value in return for a bunch of wasted space and a less focused, messier interface. The exception to this would be Impress, because it already relies on the task pane for key functionality and the sidebar is the replacement. OK. And maybe, when visible in the other modules, remove some formatting toolbar? My vision for the sidebar is a bit different, though. First and foremost, I'm hoping that the sidebar will be made modular, allowing the user to undock each individual panel (represented by a tab) from the sidebar. Keep just a single panel docked, the tab bar would disappear. That would mean that we'd get rid of the awful panel duplication we have with the Sidebar now -- there would a single Navigator, a single Gallery, and a single Style pane, and all of these could be docked/undocked at any side of the window and grouped into tabs as one wished. This is all standard panel behavior, btw -- if you want to try it, just take a look at Gimp or Inkscape. (And I believe the Adobe counterparts work similarly.) Those ideas for panel behaviour look sound to me. But less important in my view then the items I brought forward .. ;) As for the Properties panel, I'm hoping it will gain Style dropdowns like those in the toolbar (Kendy's working on this). I see no reason to fill the Properties panel with styles, though, as we already have the Styles panel for that. It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a useful way. Furthermore, it's the Properties panel, so I would expect it to hold any and all of the object properties. That's the role dialogs play right now, and I'm hoping that, over time, the Properties panel will gain all of their functionality and replace them one by one. The advantage to that would be fast and easy access to this functionality, and the ability to see the changes happen live in the document. I like the idea of seeing a life preview. On the other hand, applying a style and hitting Ctrl-z or the undo button, or the other style when it's not what is wanted, isn't a big deal too. The concept is basically the same as that of the Inspector window, which has long been used on Mac OS and is a key part of iWork. Cheers, Cor PS See you in Milan? -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Cor Em 18-09-2013 12:16, Cor Nouws escreveu: It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a useful way. HAve you any idea to share on how should be the usefull way? A (r)evolutionary UI should be the only way, in a world build from the typewriter and cemented by Microsoft own virtual instance of the typewriter, to tweak user's mind to adhere to the style elegance. Regards - -- Olivier Hallot Founder, Board of Directors Member - The Document Foundation The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 - Berlin, Germany Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint LibreOffice translation leader for Brazilian Portuguese +55-21-8822-8812 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSOcfmAAoJEJp3R7nH3vLxU4QH/21n/EEv+78UdgRiugsgGlmN K7qovNzz3f8nu1vH6CI0oIOYrLCE/Qw5Gq0cDM+GETUue76BLwVjuKIv+D1lb5Kc 7EJ84LbPPbz/Bav6ZIACNOvCsSSwFaGPXx4qW0Pi9hajLRNCDe77X0V4sZBh1xKj 6o2LlNawejW/afMIPP7h3+HmwrGXgmuphz6byrf9VQb2EMqwKodlMgO9/49MeMLv McddjoJKJOlFDNJ1EMX4YxgAaHpVbku0ywdl7mYvygDZZ7k3dzEWCZIG7rk+2wS4 RMpIPj5hy5a65eyVyrfzMb/Cp9p8X+Ikv0rdGVT9aIpJFBP7s+Fc5eslbviucOQ= =JGPM -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote: Hi Jean-Baptiste, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote (10-09-13 07:54) I do not agree with that except in the case of Calc. In Writer I work always with the Navigator and/or the Stylist open. With the Sidebar, I can close the Formatting toolbar and gain vertical space. Yes, that is the idea. I think the sidebar lacks the ability to embed whatever toolbar. For example, in Writer, Bullets and Numbering, Table or Insert toolbars. Looks in line with the pane wishes Mirek write about :) Actually, no. I'd like for the Properties panel to remain focused on properties. As I said, the panel should supplement toolbars, not replace them. Rather than duplicating toolbar functionality, the sidebar should strive to be as expansive as possible and replace modal dialogs one day. Another nice feature of the Sidebar could be to partially close it, keeping visible only its small vertical button bar. So you could be able to reopen the panel you need with one click. Currently, you need to reopen the Sidebar then click the panel button. [Thanks to Regina for answering this ;) ] Ciao! Cor -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member __**_ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.**freedesktop.orgLibreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/**mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-**ux-advisehttp://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Cor, On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote: Hi Mirek, Mirek M. wrote (09-09-13 14:46) I share your sentiments about the sidebar. It should definitely be hidden by default, as it adds minimal value in return for a bunch of wasted space and a less focused, messier interface. The exception to this would be Impress, because it already relies on the task pane for key functionality and the sidebar is the replacement. OK. And maybe, when visible in the other modules, remove some formatting toolbar? I'm not sure if I said it in this post, but I look at the Properties panel as the replacement for modal dialogs -- like the Inspector in Mac applications. Thus I imagine it not acting as a replacement to the toolbar, but as a supplement. When you're writing, you want your workspace to be clean, uncluttered, so that you can focus on the task at hand. The toolbar serves you quick formatting options, but generally stays out of the way (at least when you remove or streamline and move the Standard toolbar). When you happen to need an advanced formatting option that you rarely use, that's when you show the Properties panel. It shouldn't be on full-time (unless you refuse to use styles and constantly have breaks for using advanced formatting options while creating content; that's not a use case we should encourage, though). Since the user won't be using the panel full-time and since the Show/Hide button for the panel should be part of the contextual toolbar itself, it would be good to keep the toolbar visible even when the Properties panel is shown to not disorient the user. My vision for the sidebar is a bit different, though. First and foremost, I'm hoping that the sidebar will be made modular, allowing the user to undock each individual panel (represented by a tab) from the sidebar. Keep just a single panel docked, the tab bar would disappear. That would mean that we'd get rid of the awful panel duplication we have with the Sidebar now -- there would a single Navigator, a single Gallery, and a single Style pane, and all of these could be docked/undocked at any side of the window and grouped into tabs as one wished. This is all standard panel behavior, btw -- if you want to try it, just take a look at Gimp or Inkscape. (And I believe the Adobe counterparts work similarly.) Those ideas for panel behaviour look sound to me. But less important in my view then the items I brought forward .. ;) They're very important to me -- I can't stand the odd duplication we have going on, with two Navigators, two Galleries, and two Style panes. If you're using the Sidebar, you have to launch a separate Navigator in case you need to use two panels at once. And that might be hard to discover how to do, since it's not clear what View - Navigator or the Navigator icon in the toolbar will do. As for the Properties panel, I'm hoping it will gain Style dropdowns like those in the toolbar (Kendy's working on this). I see no reason to fill the Properties panel with styles, though, as we already have the Styles panel for that. It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a useful way. Despite favoring styles, I wouldn't dismiss the usefulness of hard-formatted bold/italic/underlines -- they're much simpler to apply than styles and they're as easy to replace (using Find and Replace). I would love for the font picker and font size picker to be deemphasized, though, given that these two should almost exclusively be applied through paragraph styles. GMail had fonts under an icon-only drop-down before its redesign. [1] Many mobile word processors do the same [2][3] (although Drive [4] has the text label Fonts instead of an icon). I would love for the font picker to use an icon-only drop-down as well. That would not only deemphasize the font picker, it would also emphasize the style picker, which would now be the widest element in the toolbar. Furthermore, it's the Properties panel, so I would expect it to hold any and all of the object properties. That's the role dialogs play right now, and I'm hoping that, over time, the Properties panel will gain all of their functionality and replace them one by one. The advantage to that would be fast and easy access to this functionality, and the ability to see the changes happen live in the document. I like the idea of seeing a life preview. On the other hand, applying a style and hitting Ctrl-z or the undo button, or the other style when it's not what is wanted, isn't a big deal too. Of course. That's what the Styles panel is for. (That said, that panel should really use single-click for applying styles -- double-click is unnecessarily strenuous.) The concept is basically the same as that of the Inspector window, which has long been used on Mac OS and is a key part of iWork. Cheers, Cor PS See you in Milan? Yes, I
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Mirek, Mirek M. wrote (18-09-13 22:03) OK. And maybe, when visible in the other modules, remove some formatting toolbar? I'm not sure if I said it in this post, but I look at the Properties panel as the replacement for modal dialogs -- like the Inspector in Mac applications. Thus I imagine it not acting as a replacement to the toolbar, but as a supplement. I understand that. But the controls on the formatting toolbar act as such too. When you're writing, you want your workspace to be clean, uncluttered, so that you can focus on the task at hand. The toolbar serves you quick formatting options, but generally stays out of the way (at least when you remove or streamline and move the Standard toolbar). When you happen to need an advanced formatting option that you rarely use, that's when you show the Properties panel. It shouldn't be on full-time (unless you refuse to use styles and constantly have breaks for using advanced formatting options while creating content; that's not a use case we should encourage, though). Since the user won't be using the panel full-time and since the Won't many people have the side bar visible all the time, just as the tool bar? Show/Hide button for the panel should be part of the contextual toolbar itself, it would be good to keep the toolbar visible even when the Properties panel is shown to not disorient the user. That is what I mean with my objection: it serves direct formatting :( Those ideas for panel behaviour look sound to me. But less important in my view then the items I brought forward .. ;) They're very important to me -- I can't stand the odd duplication we have going on, with two Navigators, two Galleries, and two Style panes. I agree that it is important to solve that. But most important is proper use of documents and formatting. Thus I would first focus on improving the use of styles via the side bar. If you're using the Sidebar, you have to launch a separate Navigator in case you need to use two panels at once. And that might be hard to discover how to do, since it's not clear what View - Navigator or the Navigator icon in the toolbar will do. That is nothing different from now :) And when we talk about our new users: let's pls offer them great style handling :) As for the Properties panel, I'm hoping it will gain Style dropdowns like those in the toolbar (Kendy's working on this). I see no reason to fill the Properties panel with styles, though, as we already have the Styles panel for that. By the way: the styles panel is outdated, ugly, hides information and actions... No problem for me. But how much better could it be if the possibilities in the side bar were used to make that modern etc. (Just see the post of Olivier on ux-list - great idea to work out.) It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a useful way. Despite favoring styles, I wouldn't dismiss the usefulness of hard-formatted bold/italic/underlines -- they're much simpler to apply than styles and they're as easy to replace (using Find and Replace). We can't hide the key B and I for the users, alas ;) I would love for the font picker and font size picker to be deemphasized, though, given that these two should almost exclusively be applied through paragraph styles. Should yes. The same for indent, alignment, ... all direct formatting controls on the tool bar and in the side bar. GMail had fonts under an icon-only drop-down before its redesign. [1] Many mobile word processors do the same [2][3] (although Drive [4] has the text label Fonts instead of an icon). I would love for the font picker to use an icon-only drop-down as well. That would not only deemphasize the font picker, it would also emphasize the style picker, which would now be the widest element in the toolbar. Like that idea as a good step. I like the idea of seeing a life preview. On the other hand, applying a style and hitting Ctrl-z or the undo button, or the other style when it's not what is wanted, isn't a big deal too. Of course. That's what the Styles panel is for. (That said, that panel should really use single-click for applying styles -- double-click is unnecessarily strenuous.) You cannot change that click behaviour without other changes. (And read what I wrote above about that panel...) PS See you in Milan? Yes, I hope so. :) :) - good to continue part of the conversation while looking at the screen! thanks best, Cor -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 10:31 PM, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote: Hi Mirek, Mirek M. wrote (18-09-13 22:03) OK. And maybe, when visible in the other modules, remove some formatting toolbar? I'm not sure if I said it in this post, but I look at the Properties panel as the replacement for modal dialogs -- like the Inspector in Mac applications. Thus I imagine it not acting as a replacement to the toolbar, but as a supplement. I understand that. But the controls on the formatting toolbar act as such too. Not really. To make myself clear, this is how I see our toolbar: http://blog.siliconpublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Formats1.png And this is how I see the Properties panel: http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/thumb/0/01/CH3_Format_Paragraphs_indents%26spacing.png/500px-CH3_Format_Paragraphs_indents%26spacing.png (I'm hoping the toolbars will be streamlined once we have the overflow menu, which is basically a cushion for those who've grown dependent on some of the less useful parts of the toolbar.) When you're writing, you want your workspace to be clean, uncluttered, so that you can focus on the task at hand. The toolbar serves you quick formatting options, but generally stays out of the way (at least when you remove or streamline and move the Standard toolbar). When you happen to need an advanced formatting option that you rarely use, that's when you show the Properties panel. It shouldn't be on full-time (unless you refuse to use styles and constantly have breaks for using advanced formatting options while creating content; that's not a use case we should encourage, though). Since the user won't be using the panel full-time and since the Won't many people have the side bar visible all the time, just as the tool bar? I hope not. I'd like people to focus on writing their document, not on formatting it. Of course, it all depends on what the defaults will be. Show/Hide button for the panel should be part of the contextual toolbar itself, it would be good to keep the toolbar visible even when the Properties panel is shown to not disorient the user. That is what I mean with my objection: it serves direct formatting :( I don't quite understand you in this context. I was talking about keeping the toolbar visible when the sidebar is shown. That's also important when switching tabs in the Sidebar. It'd be strange to suddenly show the toolbar when going from the Properties panel to the Navigator panel, and it would shift a large portion of the chrome, including the sidebar tabs themselves. Those ideas for panel behaviour look sound to me. But less important in my view then the items I brought forward .. ;) They're very important to me -- I can't stand the odd duplication we have going on, with two Navigators, two Galleries, and two Style panes. I agree that it is important to solve that. But most important is proper use of documents and formatting. Thus I would first focus on improving the use of styles via the side bar. In that case, the focus should be on improving the Styles panel. See my post under the LO's styles are more confusing then MSO's (Was Re: some thoughts on the Sidebar) ux-advise thread for pointers on that. If you're using the Sidebar, you have to launch a separate Navigator in case you need to use two panels at once. And that might be hard to discover how to do, since it's not clear what View - Navigator or the Navigator icon in the toolbar will do. That is nothing different from now :) Right now, we only have one Navigator (and the other dockable panes). We don't have the sidebar, so there's no confusion. And when we talk about our new users: let's pls offer them great style handling :) +1 As for the Properties panel, I'm hoping it will gain Style dropdowns like those in the toolbar (Kendy's working on this). I see no reason to fill the Properties panel with styles, though, as we already have the Styles panel for that. By the way: the styles panel is outdated, ugly, hides information and actions... No problem for me. But how much better could it be if the possibilities in the side bar were used to make that modern etc. (Just see the post of Olivier on ux-list - great idea to work out.) Which post do you mean? It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a useful way. Despite favoring styles, I wouldn't dismiss the usefulness of hard-formatted bold/italic/underlines -- they're much simpler to apply than styles and they're as easy to replace (using Find and Replace). We can't hide the key B and I for the users, alas ;) I would love for the font picker and font size picker to be deemphasized, though, given that these two should almost exclusively be applied through paragraph styles. Should yes. The same
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Cor, Le 18/09/2013 17:16, Cor Nouws a écrit : It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a useful way. \o/ Yeah! I love you! Go for it! We *need* that! Styles are the very feature that distinguishes LibO. It should be highly publicised. BTW, enhancements to styles are possible: -- styles and formatting window: possibility of hiding styles This allows document creators to have a set of basic styles which won't be used by the final users. These only see the styles they are meant to apply. AFAIK, the current hiding mechanism do support that well. -- Table styles A long-time missing feature -- Simplify the list styles (though I do like them) and probably others... All the best, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Jean-Baptiste, Jean-Baptiste Faure schrieb: Hi all, [..] Another nice feature of the Sidebar could be to partially close it, keeping visible only its small vertical button bar. So you could be able to reopen the panel you need with one click. Currently, you need to reopen the Sidebar then click the panel button. If you have enabled the sidebar in View menu, then a click on the closer cross of the sidebar will do exact that: Close the deck (= the area of the panels) but keep the menu tab bar open. So feature is already there. Kind regards Regina ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Regina, Le 10/09/2013 16:16, Regina Henschel a écrit : Hi Jean-Baptiste, [...] If you have enabled the sidebar in View menu, then a click on the closer cross of the sidebar will do exact that: Close the deck (= the area of the panels) but keep the menu tab bar open. So feature is already there. Oups, I am stupid :-( Thank you. JBF -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Cor, I share your sentiments about the sidebar. It should definitely be hidden by default, as it adds minimal value in return for a bunch of wasted space and a less focused, messier interface. The exception to this would be Impress, because it already relies on the task pane for key functionality and the sidebar is the replacement. My vision for the sidebar is a bit different, though. First and foremost, I'm hoping that the sidebar will be made modular, allowing the user to undock each individual panel (represented by a tab) from the sidebar. Keep just a single panel docked, the tab bar would disappear. That would mean that we'd get rid of the awful panel duplication we have with the Sidebar now -- there would a single Navigator, a single Gallery, and a single Style pane, and all of these could be docked/undocked at any side of the window and grouped into tabs as one wished. This is all standard panel behavior, btw -- if you want to try it, just take a look at Gimp or Inkscape. (And I believe the Adobe counterparts work similarly.) As for the Properties panel, I'm hoping it will gain Style dropdowns like those in the toolbar (Kendy's working on this). I see no reason to fill the Properties panel with styles, though, as we already have the Styles panel for that. Furthermore, it's the Properties panel, so I would expect it to hold any and all of the object properties. That's the role dialogs play right now, and I'm hoping that, over time, the Properties panel will gain all of their functionality and replace them one by one. The advantage to that would be fast and easy access to this functionality, and the ability to see the changes happen live in the document. The concept is basically the same as that of the Inspector window, which has long been used on Mac OS and is a key part of iWork. On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote: Hi all, I took the freedom to post a blog about the subject. http://cor4office.blogspot.nl/**2013/09/sidebar-avoiding-it-** or-improve-it-for.htmlhttp://cor4office.blogspot.nl/2013/09/sidebar-avoiding-it-or-improve-it-for.html Of course I skipped some details about the Sidebar that IMHO are not so relevant for my point. Two quotes: So for me, two reasons to dislike the Sidebar: for eating space and for promoting bad habits :( it's clear that I would rather see support for the use of styles. So I mocked up a little version with various style categories shown at the same time. Would appreciate your ideas :) thanks ciao, Cor -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member __**_ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.**freedesktop.orgLibreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/**mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-**ux-advisehttp://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Cor I don't agree with your comments about the sidebar eating space. Using Writer on a widescreen notebook I prefer the option to have things down the side of the screen so that the maximum vertical space is available, but with Sheet a wider display is preferable. So the first problem with sidebars as currently implemented is that sidebar setting is universal, i.e. you can't have a sidebar with Writer but not with Sheet (don't do enough with Impress to know what would be best). I do agree with you that the sidebar could promote bad habits, but then since the buttons on it are the same as the formatting toolbar moving to a sidebar is really no more likely to lead to bad habits. Direct formatting is less effective than using styles but LO's styles are if anything more confusing to the average user than MSO's. I do like your screen shot of a styles sidebar layout; even better would be if the styles appeared as samples. I'm so pleased that LO is beginning to improve the UX. Less and less people are learning with MSO2003 so there will be fewer MS-educated users prepared to move to LO's seemingly outdated UX, and before anyone complains at that I am one of those who have moved to LO to avoid the move to the MS ribbon. My daughter, still at school, thinks LO is awful compared to what she has learned to use. This first sidebar effort has its rough edges but I see it as only the first step, and am very happy and grateful to our developers for it. David -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-ux-advise-some-thoughts-on-the-Sidebar-tp4073014p4073341.html Sent from the UX-Advise mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
