Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Modernizing the Libreplanet Community Infrastructure

[Eric Wong]

Connor Doherty  wrote:
> Feel free to do whatever you like with that regard - my
> proposal is unrelated since your software has no GUI, which
> would be a step in the opposite direction from my post.
> 
> Sorry, but my eyes glazed over when I clicked that link.
> Candidly, I think it makes Mailman's interface look not so bad
> after all.

No worries.  Maybe the subject matter of the git list is
alien to most folks, here.  Here's my mirror:

https://public-inbox.org/libreplanet-discuss/

The lack of a bundled GUI doesn't preclude being able to use one.
It allows NNTP access, and there are several GUI NNTP clients.
The HTML also supports user-supplied CSS for browsers like
Dillo: https://public-inbox.org/design_www.txt (see bottom)

I will also be adding a JSON API for the search interface,
which should make it easier for other web-based tools to
access.

> But to each his own. Cheers!

The whole point of public-inbox is anybody can clone the
data+code and customize it :)

In fact; I prioritize freely-accessible, hacker-friendly data
as more important than software itself.

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Modernizing the Libreplanet Community Infrastructure

[Connor Doherty]

Feel free to do whatever you like with that regard - my proposal is unrelated 
since your software has no GUI, which would be a step in the opposite direction 
from my post.

Sorry, but my eyes glazed over when I clicked that link. Candidly, I think it 
makes Mailman's interface look not so bad after all.


But to each his own. Cheers!


From: Eric Wong <e...@80x24.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 11:00:20 PM
To: Connor Doherty
Cc: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
Subject: Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Modernizing the Libreplanet Community 
Infrastructure

I would be open to setting up a public-inbox mirror for this
and other GNU lists(*).

The most notable instance is the one I run for the git project:

https://public-inbox.org/git/

All the code is AGPL-3.0+ and designed for low-end hardware
(both client and server): git clone https://public-inbox.org/

I already run one mirror for the FSF directory-discuss list, but
the HTTP interface is only available via Tor .onion, but I
suppose I can enable the HTTPS interface if folks want it.

http://ou63pmih66umazou.onion/directory-discuss/
nntp://ou63pmih66umazou.onion/inbox.comp.fsf.directory-discuss
nntp://news.public-inbox.org/inbox.comp.fsf.directory-discuss

I'm not sure about enabling it to a non-Tor audience, since
there's zero address obfuscation and intended for communities
where nobody cares to obfuscate their address.

If desired by the FSF, I can enable email address obfuscation (a
new feature); but I advise against it since it increases the
chance of the list being a single-point-of-failure.  You'll note
the public-inbox.org/git "reply" links point to instructions for
using "git send-email" with a full command-line.

I'm 100% committed to keeping the project JavaScript-free and
catering to folks on low-end hardware.  I also detest GUIs since
graphics drivers are complex, quickly obsolete, expensive to
maintain, and more and more seem to require non-Free firmware
(or drivers are non-Free).

Disclaimer: I am not part of FSF or GNU; have no official role
in the git project and do not speak for them.  Perhaps the
best part of public-inbox is anybody can setup an archive of any
list.

(*) having full archives on ftp://lists.gnu.org/ makes it easy
for anyone to do the same, even.
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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Modernizing the Libreplanet Community Infrastructure

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

I have used a site that had Discourse some time ago (1 year ago), and I
noticed one problem with it, at least when I tried it, it didn't provide
me, the site visitor, the software freedom regarding the JavaScript
being provided to me.

Also, another issue is: usage of the service provider's
resources. Seeing Helekin's comments on the features of Discourse, I
wonder how much resources this uses compared to traditional combination
of Mailman + Namazu + Semantic MediaWiki + IRC. Now, imagine that, if
every Discourse user has in his account the ability to have custom notes
about things that are going on, and perhaps even custom grouping of
things, I imagine that this can grow in scale very easily if people
start using such features. I'm not a general Internet service provider,
but I do know that leaving the burden of saving your own customization
to the provider of the service is somewhat intensive. However, this
might work if more than one organization is involved.


Respectfully, Adonay.
-- 
- [[https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno]]
- Palestrante e consultor sobre /software/ livre (não confundir com
  gratis).
- "WhatsApp"? Ele não é livre, por isso não uso. Iguais a ele prefiro
  GNU Ring, ou Tox. Quer outras formas de contato? Adicione o vCard
  que está no endereço acima aos teus contatos.
- Pretende me enviar arquivos .doc, .ppt, .cdr, ou .mp3? OK, eu
  aceito, mas não repasso. Entrego apenas em formatos favoráveis ao
  /software/ livre. Favor entrar em contato em caso de dúvida.

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Modernizing the Libreplanet Community Infrastructure

[Aaron Wolf]

On 06/21/2017 05:42 AM, Hellekin O. Wolf wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 11:31:56PM +0200, John Sullivan wrote:
>> A couple quick things:
>>
>> 1) have you looked at Mailman 3? Has web forum features.
>>
> 
> Mailman3 remains a mailing list software with a Web interface.
> 
> What you can gain with Discourse is a lot more interesting:
> 
> - you can split and merge threads
> - you can turn posts into wikis
> - you can use fine-grained and dynamic notifications to follow threads
> - you can use groups, especially working groups
> - you can edit and recompose threads for collaborative editing
> - you can limit threads to a working group to work on contents, then make it 
> public
> - you can upload photos to a thread straight from your mobile phone 
> (Discourse will rewrite it, make a thumbnail, etc.)
> - you can automatically turn Web links into previews (including video 
> players) without affecting the email experience
> - etc.
> 
>> 2) mission of wiki is not just geographic groups. Maybe we need to make that 
>> clearer. It's also intended, and has been used for, a space to collaborate 
>> around issues and actions.
>>
> 
> I hope the above sample list of features highlights strengths of Discourse 
> for preparing actions and collaborating on issues.
> 
> I want to add that for free software promotion, which is often a task done by 
> non-hackers, having a suitable tool for a larger public helps.
> More importantly, Discourse is being adopted across the board, from distros 
> (e.g., Manjaro), to interest groups (e.g., OpenSourceDesign), to 'citizen 
> engagement platforms' setup by institutions (e.g., the European Union). That 
> means it's a tool that's increasingly popular with users, and thus a good one 
> to have in your toolbox if you want them to support you.
> 
> There's not reason why a Discourse for LP would prevent us, mailing list + 
> IRC aficionados, from participating normally. OTOH it's really an opportunity 
> to bring in more people, especially younger ones.  Actually I had a similar 
> discussion with Matthias Kirchner (from FSFE) this morning as I thought to 
> reuse in a larger context the category split I made for Devuan two years ago 
> based on the 4 freedoms: USE, STUDY, SHARE, HACK.  I find it's a great way to 
> segment users according to their engagement and interests, and having this 
> scheme for the free software community in general would prove more useful 
> than for a single distro.
> 
> Therefore I support the idea put forth by Connor.
> 
> ==
> hk
> 

I'm largely with Hellekin. I am grateful for and appreciate all the
points about the advantages of email-centric discussion.

I'd argue that email just feels less centralized. It gives each user the
ability to sort each email as they wish. They can use their client to
add notes and tags to each email that nobody else sees or needs to see.
It's really nice for each person to sort the posts as fits their own
approach. There's no way to do that with a forum.

A forum is more centralized. It allows posts to be moved in a way that
affects everyone and affects the thread going forward. It lets things be
tagged after-the-fact in ways that everyone sees.

Overall, I feel that the forum-first email-second is often better for
project management and focused communities while *also* working well
enough for open-ended discussion. Email-first works better for anyone
who just wants to approach things in a different fashion than the
forum-managers would be using.

There's no reason email-focused program can't offer tools like
per-thread subscription options, but they tend not to for some reason.

Of Hellekin's points, the moving and editing in a forum (in Discourse)
are the things I find most valuable. Editing is the basis for wiki
(multi-user editing). We can also moderate messages so that anything
violating a code-of-conduct can be just a request to edit, and the only
permanent focus on the original problem post would be if it goes out
immediately to people by email. The group stuff is great.

I'm less excited about the mere flashy conveniences like previews,
integrated video etc

My ideal system would be pretty much Discourse if had a stronger focus
on threaded format for discussions and all the operations were written
to not rely on JavaScript at all.

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Modernizing the Libreplanet Community Infrastructure

[Hellekin O. Wolf]

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 11:31:56PM +0200, John Sullivan wrote:
> A couple quick things:
> 
> 1) have you looked at Mailman 3? Has web forum features.
>

Mailman3 remains a mailing list software with a Web interface.

What you can gain with Discourse is a lot more interesting:

- you can split and merge threads
- you can turn posts into wikis
- you can use fine-grained and dynamic notifications to follow threads
- you can use groups, especially working groups
- you can edit and recompose threads for collaborative editing
- you can limit threads to a working group to work on contents, then make it 
public
- you can upload photos to a thread straight from your mobile phone (Discourse 
will rewrite it, make a thumbnail, etc.)
- you can automatically turn Web links into previews (including video players) 
without affecting the email experience
- etc.

> 2) mission of wiki is not just geographic groups. Maybe we need to make that 
> clearer. It's also intended, and has been used for, a space to collaborate 
> around issues and actions.
> 

I hope the above sample list of features highlights strengths of Discourse for 
preparing actions and collaborating on issues.

I want to add that for free software promotion, which is often a task done by 
non-hackers, having a suitable tool for a larger public helps.
More importantly, Discourse is being adopted across the board, from distros 
(e.g., Manjaro), to interest groups (e.g., OpenSourceDesign), to 'citizen 
engagement platforms' setup by institutions (e.g., the European Union). That 
means it's a tool that's increasingly popular with users, and thus a good one 
to have in your toolbox if you want them to support you.

There's not reason why a Discourse for LP would prevent us, mailing list + IRC 
aficionados, from participating normally. OTOH it's really an opportunity to 
bring in more people, especially younger ones.  Actually I had a similar 
discussion with Matthias Kirchner (from FSFE) this morning as I thought to 
reuse in a larger context the category split I made for Devuan two years ago 
based on the 4 freedoms: USE, STUDY, SHARE, HACK.  I find it's a great way to 
segment users according to their engagement and interests, and having this 
scheme for the free software community in general would prove more useful than 
for a single distro.

Therefore I support the idea put forth by Connor.

==
hk

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Modernizing the Libreplanet Community Infrastructure

[Eric Wong]

I would be open to setting up a public-inbox mirror for this
and other GNU lists(*).

The most notable instance is the one I run for the git project:

https://public-inbox.org/git/

All the code is AGPL-3.0+ and designed for low-end hardware
(both client and server): git clone https://public-inbox.org/

I already run one mirror for the FSF directory-discuss list, but
the HTTP interface is only available via Tor .onion, but I
suppose I can enable the HTTPS interface if folks want it.

http://ou63pmih66umazou.onion/directory-discuss/
nntp://ou63pmih66umazou.onion/inbox.comp.fsf.directory-discuss
nntp://news.public-inbox.org/inbox.comp.fsf.directory-discuss

I'm not sure about enabling it to a non-Tor audience, since
there's zero address obfuscation and intended for communities
where nobody cares to obfuscate their address.

If desired by the FSF, I can enable email address obfuscation (a
new feature); but I advise against it since it increases the
chance of the list being a single-point-of-failure.  You'll note
the public-inbox.org/git "reply" links point to instructions for
using "git send-email" with a full command-line.

I'm 100% committed to keeping the project JavaScript-free and
catering to folks on low-end hardware.  I also detest GUIs since
graphics drivers are complex, quickly obsolete, expensive to
maintain, and more and more seem to require non-Free firmware
(or drivers are non-Free).

Disclaimer: I am not part of FSF or GNU; have no official role
in the git project and do not speak for them.  Perhaps the
best part of public-inbox is anybody can setup an archive of any
list.

(*) having full archives on ftp://lists.gnu.org/ makes it easy
for anyone to do the same, even.

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Modernizing the Libreplanet Community Infrastructure

[Connor Doherty]

Hey John!

1) The answer is no, I haven't, but if you knew about that, what prevents you 
from upgrading? (Not that I think it's any better than Discourse.)
2) I had a feeling it was for more than groups, but I have yet to see it used 
for anything else in a way that is (inarguably) successful. Regardless, my 
proposal is essentially to focus not only on internal collaboration but to 
become more of a public-facing resource for external visitors, such as 
educating the public about many of the otherwise opaque software freedom 
issues. Right now, it's mostly essays on gnu.org/fsf.org but the potential here 
is enormous.


Anyway, it looks like Mailman 3 has a beta web interface called Postorious, but 
I think it's safe to say it doesn't hold a candle to abilities and ease of use 
they've worked into Discourse.


From: John Sullivan <jo...@fsf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 5:31:56 PM
To: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org; Connor Doherty
Subject: Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Modernizing the Libreplanet Community 
Infrastructure

A couple quick things:

1) have you looked at Mailman 3? Has web forum features.

2) mission of wiki is not just geographic groups. Maybe we need to make that 
clearer. It's also intended, and has been used for, a space to collaborate 
around issues and actions.
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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] Modernizing the Libreplanet Community Infrastructure

[John Sullivan]

A couple quick things:

1) have you looked at Mailman 3? Has web forum features.

2) mission of wiki is not just geographic groups. Maybe we need to make that 
clearer. It's also intended, and has been used for, a space to collaborate 
around issues and actions.

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