[Lift] Re: Future of the Lift wiki
That's a great way of putting. In my opinion, here's how lift's current documentation fits into those three categories: the Guidebook: the Get Started Guided and the Exploring Lift book the Cookbook: blogs and various git repositories the Encyclopedia: the mailing list, scala docs, and of course the source code I think the lift wiki can quickly (6 months) become the repository for cookbook/recipe articles. Eventually (1.5+ years) it could even become the lift encyclopedia. Are these worthwhile goals? Please don't view these e-mail as just a bunch of noobs complaining about documentation. I'm just trying to align my expectation with the community's ideals. Thanks, Xavi On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 10:36 PM, g-man gregor...@gmail.com wrote: Having gone through Rails, the Google App Engine with Django, and web2py over the last four years, I have seen it all as far as learning new frameworks goes, and I have posted a few ideas on that subject both here and on the book group. For those of us spoiled by the wealth of learning material on Rails, and to a lesser degree Django and web2py, all I can say is: 'Lift is a new framework, and a sophisticated one at that, which uses a new language derived from a convoluted one, and is at a relatively early stage of development, so therefore the designers are forging ahead to completion of the foundation, and thus there are few who can devote the time to creating the documentation we newcomers need.' My post on the book group defined the three classes of useful documents to be the Guidebook, the Encyclopedia, and the Cookbook. My role for the wiki is to hold Cookbook recipes which answer the most common 'how to' questions we encounter when building a website. In my personal learning quest, I am extending the 'ToDo' app by adding pieces of functionality, like many-to-many tagging, date manipulation, deletion, an admin interface, etc. As I come across solutions or questions, I post those on the group in order to help others and to get improvements and refinements from the members. David is right... Lift and Scala together are taking web applications to a whole new level of performance, so naturally it will take a little time to make things happen. By the way, today my copies of David's and Martin's Scala books arrived, and I urge all to purchase them yourselves! On Jun 1, 3:35 pm, Charles F. Munat c...@munat.com wrote: Hi, Xavi, One of my tasks is to come up with a good organization for the wiki and a site map, as well as a list of things we'd like to add to it. Unfortunately, with the coming Scala/Liftoff and OSB conferences, I've been swamped with other things. But I am working on it, albeit slowly. If you have any specific recommendations, please post them. Thanks! Chas. Xavi Ramirez wrote: Hello, I'm a bit confused about the future of the lift wiki. What's the end goal? In an ideal world is it supposed to be the main repository of lift knowledge, or just another documentation source? I personally feel that having one repository of knowledge is much more noob friendly. Currently new members have to navigate through started guides, books, e-mail threads, scala docs, and personal blogs to find relative information. Though the get started guided and book provide a good introduction, it's hard to progress from novice to intermediate with these fragmented resources. Thanks, Xavi --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Future of the Lift wiki
That's fantastic we have a couple of folks willing to contribute to the wiki! I'm cc-ing Debby as she's great with organizing things (in case she doesn't watch this thread). Debby any thoughts ? Br's, Marius On Jun 2, 5:16 pm, Bryan. germ...@gmail.com wrote: I too am willing to help. I really like the format of the django documentation:http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/. Any other recommendations out there? Thanks, Bryan On Jun 2, 6:57 am, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com wrote: Mark me down :) On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:36 AM, marius d. marius.dan...@gmail.com wrote: I believe Debbie was asking the community for a few folks willing to garden the wiki. Anyone interested? Br's, Marius On Jun 2, 11:07 am, Timothy Perrett timo...@getintheloop.eu wrote: Guys, I know you chaps are quite new on this lift, so just to add a bit of background - we've been here many, many times before with various people pledging to fix and cleanup the wiki (myself included!) After much discussion we decided that what was needed were gardeners - not perhaps to write the articles themselves (as they may not be able to if its about complex lift internals), but rather, to hassle the commit team into churning out the required information that the gardeners can distill onto the wiki. This involves going through the current wiki and removing the old / irrelevant stuff. Cheers, Tim On Jun 2, 3:36 am, g-man gregor...@gmail.com wrote: Having gone through Rails, the Google App Engine with Django, and web2py over the last four years, I have seen it all as far as learning new frameworks goes, and I have posted a few ideas on that subject both here and on the book group. For those of us spoiled by the wealth of learning material on Rails, and to a lesser degree Django and web2py, all I can say is: 'Lift is a new framework, and a sophisticated one at that, which uses a new language derived from a convoluted one, and is at a relatively early stage of development, so therefore the designers are forging ahead to completion of the foundation, and thus there are few who can devote the time to creating the documentation we newcomers need.' My post on the book group defined the three classes of useful documents to be the Guidebook, the Encyclopedia, and the Cookbook. My role for the wiki is to hold Cookbook recipes which answer the most common 'how to' questions we encounter when building a website. In my personal learning quest, I am extending the 'ToDo' app by adding pieces of functionality, like many-to-many tagging, date manipulation, deletion, an admin interface, etc. As I come across solutions or questions, I post those on the group in order to help others and to get improvements and refinements from the members. David is right... Lift and Scala together are taking web applications to a whole new level of performance, so naturally it will take a little time to make things happen. By the way, today my copies of David's and Martin's Scala books arrived, and I urge all to purchase them yourselves! On Jun 1, 3:35 pm, Charles F. Munat c...@munat.com wrote: Hi, Xavi, One of my tasks is to come up with a good organization for the wiki and a site map, as well as a list of things we'd like to add to it. Unfortunately, with the coming Scala/Liftoff and OSB conferences, I've been swamped with other things. But I am working on it, albeit slowly. If you have any specific recommendations, please post them. Thanks! Chas. Xavi Ramirez wrote: Hello, I'm a bit confused about the future of the lift wiki. What's the end goal? In an ideal world is it supposed to be the main repository of lift knowledge, or just another documentation source? I personally feel that having one repository of knowledge is much more noob friendly. Currently new members have to navigate through started guides, books, e-mail threads, scala docs, and personal blogs to find relative information. Though the get started guided and book provide a good introduction, it's hard to progress from novice to intermediate with these fragmented resources. Thanks, Xavi --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Future of the Lift wiki
Guys, I know you chaps are quite new on this lift, so just to add a bit of background - we've been here many, many times before with various people pledging to fix and cleanup the wiki (myself included!) After much discussion we decided that what was needed were gardeners - not perhaps to write the articles themselves (as they may not be able to if its about complex lift internals), but rather, to hassle the commit team into churning out the required information that the gardeners can distill onto the wiki. This involves going through the current wiki and removing the old / irrelevant stuff. Cheers, Tim On Jun 2, 3:36 am, g-man gregor...@gmail.com wrote: Having gone through Rails, the Google App Engine with Django, and web2py over the last four years, I have seen it all as far as learning new frameworks goes, and I have posted a few ideas on that subject both here and on the book group. For those of us spoiled by the wealth of learning material on Rails, and to a lesser degree Django and web2py, all I can say is: 'Lift is a new framework, and a sophisticated one at that, which uses a new language derived from a convoluted one, and is at a relatively early stage of development, so therefore the designers are forging ahead to completion of the foundation, and thus there are few who can devote the time to creating the documentation we newcomers need.' My post on the book group defined the three classes of useful documents to be the Guidebook, the Encyclopedia, and the Cookbook. My role for the wiki is to hold Cookbook recipes which answer the most common 'how to' questions we encounter when building a website. In my personal learning quest, I am extending the 'ToDo' app by adding pieces of functionality, like many-to-many tagging, date manipulation, deletion, an admin interface, etc. As I come across solutions or questions, I post those on the group in order to help others and to get improvements and refinements from the members. David is right... Lift and Scala together are taking web applications to a whole new level of performance, so naturally it will take a little time to make things happen. By the way, today my copies of David's and Martin's Scala books arrived, and I urge all to purchase them yourselves! On Jun 1, 3:35 pm, Charles F. Munat c...@munat.com wrote: Hi, Xavi, One of my tasks is to come up with a good organization for the wiki and a site map, as well as a list of things we'd like to add to it. Unfortunately, with the coming Scala/Liftoff and OSB conferences, I've been swamped with other things. But I am working on it, albeit slowly. If you have any specific recommendations, please post them. Thanks! Chas. Xavi Ramirez wrote: Hello, I'm a bit confused about the future of the lift wiki. What's the end goal? In an ideal world is it supposed to be the main repository of lift knowledge, or just another documentation source? I personally feel that having one repository of knowledge is much more noob friendly. Currently new members have to navigate through started guides, books, e-mail threads, scala docs, and personal blogs to find relative information. Though the get started guided and book provide a good introduction, it's hard to progress from novice to intermediate with these fragmented resources. Thanks, Xavi --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Future of the Lift wiki
I believe Debbie was asking the community for a few folks willing to garden the wiki. Anyone interested? Br's, Marius On Jun 2, 11:07 am, Timothy Perrett timo...@getintheloop.eu wrote: Guys, I know you chaps are quite new on this lift, so just to add a bit of background - we've been here many, many times before with various people pledging to fix and cleanup the wiki (myself included!) After much discussion we decided that what was needed were gardeners - not perhaps to write the articles themselves (as they may not be able to if its about complex lift internals), but rather, to hassle the commit team into churning out the required information that the gardeners can distill onto the wiki. This involves going through the current wiki and removing the old / irrelevant stuff. Cheers, Tim On Jun 2, 3:36 am, g-man gregor...@gmail.com wrote: Having gone through Rails, the Google App Engine with Django, and web2py over the last four years, I have seen it all as far as learning new frameworks goes, and I have posted a few ideas on that subject both here and on the book group. For those of us spoiled by the wealth of learning material on Rails, and to a lesser degree Django and web2py, all I can say is: 'Lift is a new framework, and a sophisticated one at that, which uses a new language derived from a convoluted one, and is at a relatively early stage of development, so therefore the designers are forging ahead to completion of the foundation, and thus there are few who can devote the time to creating the documentation we newcomers need.' My post on the book group defined the three classes of useful documents to be the Guidebook, the Encyclopedia, and the Cookbook. My role for the wiki is to hold Cookbook recipes which answer the most common 'how to' questions we encounter when building a website. In my personal learning quest, I am extending the 'ToDo' app by adding pieces of functionality, like many-to-many tagging, date manipulation, deletion, an admin interface, etc. As I come across solutions or questions, I post those on the group in order to help others and to get improvements and refinements from the members. David is right... Lift and Scala together are taking web applications to a whole new level of performance, so naturally it will take a little time to make things happen. By the way, today my copies of David's and Martin's Scala books arrived, and I urge all to purchase them yourselves! On Jun 1, 3:35 pm, Charles F. Munat c...@munat.com wrote: Hi, Xavi, One of my tasks is to come up with a good organization for the wiki and a site map, as well as a list of things we'd like to add to it. Unfortunately, with the coming Scala/Liftoff and OSB conferences, I've been swamped with other things. But I am working on it, albeit slowly. If you have any specific recommendations, please post them. Thanks! Chas. Xavi Ramirez wrote: Hello, I'm a bit confused about the future of the lift wiki. What's the end goal? In an ideal world is it supposed to be the main repository of lift knowledge, or just another documentation source? I personally feel that having one repository of knowledge is much more noob friendly. Currently new members have to navigate through started guides, books, e-mail threads, scala docs, and personal blogs to find relative information. Though the get started guided and book provide a good introduction, it's hard to progress from novice to intermediate with these fragmented resources. Thanks, Xavi --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Future of the Lift wiki
Mark me down :) On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:36 AM, marius d. marius.dan...@gmail.com wrote: I believe Debbie was asking the community for a few folks willing to garden the wiki. Anyone interested? Br's, Marius On Jun 2, 11:07 am, Timothy Perrett timo...@getintheloop.eu wrote: Guys, I know you chaps are quite new on this lift, so just to add a bit of background - we've been here many, many times before with various people pledging to fix and cleanup the wiki (myself included!) After much discussion we decided that what was needed were gardeners - not perhaps to write the articles themselves (as they may not be able to if its about complex lift internals), but rather, to hassle the commit team into churning out the required information that the gardeners can distill onto the wiki. This involves going through the current wiki and removing the old / irrelevant stuff. Cheers, Tim On Jun 2, 3:36 am, g-man gregor...@gmail.com wrote: Having gone through Rails, the Google App Engine with Django, and web2py over the last four years, I have seen it all as far as learning new frameworks goes, and I have posted a few ideas on that subject both here and on the book group. For those of us spoiled by the wealth of learning material on Rails, and to a lesser degree Django and web2py, all I can say is: 'Lift is a new framework, and a sophisticated one at that, which uses a new language derived from a convoluted one, and is at a relatively early stage of development, so therefore the designers are forging ahead to completion of the foundation, and thus there are few who can devote the time to creating the documentation we newcomers need.' My post on the book group defined the three classes of useful documents to be the Guidebook, the Encyclopedia, and the Cookbook. My role for the wiki is to hold Cookbook recipes which answer the most common 'how to' questions we encounter when building a website. In my personal learning quest, I am extending the 'ToDo' app by adding pieces of functionality, like many-to-many tagging, date manipulation, deletion, an admin interface, etc. As I come across solutions or questions, I post those on the group in order to help others and to get improvements and refinements from the members. David is right... Lift and Scala together are taking web applications to a whole new level of performance, so naturally it will take a little time to make things happen. By the way, today my copies of David's and Martin's Scala books arrived, and I urge all to purchase them yourselves! On Jun 1, 3:35 pm, Charles F. Munat c...@munat.com wrote: Hi, Xavi, One of my tasks is to come up with a good organization for the wiki and a site map, as well as a list of things we'd like to add to it. Unfortunately, with the coming Scala/Liftoff and OSB conferences, I've been swamped with other things. But I am working on it, albeit slowly. If you have any specific recommendations, please post them. Thanks! Chas. Xavi Ramirez wrote: Hello, I'm a bit confused about the future of the lift wiki. What's the end goal? In an ideal world is it supposed to be the main repository of lift knowledge, or just another documentation source? I personally feel that having one repository of knowledge is much more noob friendly. Currently new members have to navigate through started guides, books, e-mail threads, scala docs, and personal blogs to find relative information. Though the get started guided and book provide a good introduction, it's hard to progress from novice to intermediate with these fragmented resources. Thanks, Xavi --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Future of the Lift wiki
I too am willing to help. I really like the format of the django documentation: http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/. Any other recommendations out there? Thanks, Bryan On Jun 2, 6:57 am, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com wrote: Mark me down :) On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:36 AM, marius d. marius.dan...@gmail.com wrote: I believe Debbie was asking the community for a few folks willing to garden the wiki. Anyone interested? Br's, Marius On Jun 2, 11:07 am, Timothy Perrett timo...@getintheloop.eu wrote: Guys, I know you chaps are quite new on this lift, so just to add a bit of background - we've been here many, many times before with various people pledging to fix and cleanup the wiki (myself included!) After much discussion we decided that what was needed were gardeners - not perhaps to write the articles themselves (as they may not be able to if its about complex lift internals), but rather, to hassle the commit team into churning out the required information that the gardeners can distill onto the wiki. This involves going through the current wiki and removing the old / irrelevant stuff. Cheers, Tim On Jun 2, 3:36 am, g-man gregor...@gmail.com wrote: Having gone through Rails, the Google App Engine with Django, and web2py over the last four years, I have seen it all as far as learning new frameworks goes, and I have posted a few ideas on that subject both here and on the book group. For those of us spoiled by the wealth of learning material on Rails, and to a lesser degree Django and web2py, all I can say is: 'Lift is a new framework, and a sophisticated one at that, which uses a new language derived from a convoluted one, and is at a relatively early stage of development, so therefore the designers are forging ahead to completion of the foundation, and thus there are few who can devote the time to creating the documentation we newcomers need.' My post on the book group defined the three classes of useful documents to be the Guidebook, the Encyclopedia, and the Cookbook. My role for the wiki is to hold Cookbook recipes which answer the most common 'how to' questions we encounter when building a website. In my personal learning quest, I am extending the 'ToDo' app by adding pieces of functionality, like many-to-many tagging, date manipulation, deletion, an admin interface, etc. As I come across solutions or questions, I post those on the group in order to help others and to get improvements and refinements from the members. David is right... Lift and Scala together are taking web applications to a whole new level of performance, so naturally it will take a little time to make things happen. By the way, today my copies of David's and Martin's Scala books arrived, and I urge all to purchase them yourselves! On Jun 1, 3:35 pm, Charles F. Munat c...@munat.com wrote: Hi, Xavi, One of my tasks is to come up with a good organization for the wiki and a site map, as well as a list of things we'd like to add to it. Unfortunately, with the coming Scala/Liftoff and OSB conferences, I've been swamped with other things. But I am working on it, albeit slowly. If you have any specific recommendations, please post them. Thanks! Chas. Xavi Ramirez wrote: Hello, I'm a bit confused about the future of the lift wiki. What's the end goal? In an ideal world is it supposed to be the main repository of lift knowledge, or just another documentation source? I personally feel that having one repository of knowledge is much more noob friendly. Currently new members have to navigate through started guides, books, e-mail threads, scala docs, and personal blogs to find relative information. Though the get started guided and book provide a good introduction, it's hard to progress from novice to intermediate with these fragmented resources. Thanks, Xavi --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Future of the Lift wiki
Hi, Xavi, One of my tasks is to come up with a good organization for the wiki and a site map, as well as a list of things we'd like to add to it. Unfortunately, with the coming Scala/Liftoff and OSB conferences, I've been swamped with other things. But I am working on it, albeit slowly. If you have any specific recommendations, please post them. Thanks! Chas. Xavi Ramirez wrote: Hello, I'm a bit confused about the future of the lift wiki. What's the end goal? In an ideal world is it supposed to be the main repository of lift knowledge, or just another documentation source? I personally feel that having one repository of knowledge is much more noob friendly. Currently new members have to navigate through started guides, books, e-mail threads, scala docs, and personal blogs to find relative information. Though the get started guided and book provide a good introduction, it's hard to progress from novice to intermediate with these fragmented resources. Thanks, Xavi --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Future of the Lift wiki
I agree that the wiki needs a clear remit. I have found it very useful for learning (especially the cheat sheet). But the first thing I ever did with lift (which was only last week) was firstly to read the 'getting started' document but secondly to RTFS (only some of it!), in particular Mapper. The API documentation is also invaluable for ultra- beginner learning. I felt reading the source code gave me the best feeling for the inside of Lift's head. I do think the wiki should be solidified and contain a page on every getting-started subject. But I think reading the source is an important step in learning and understanding Lift and the wiki should not duplicate the kind of information you can get that way. Things like the comments missing from the source (and therefore from the API) are perhaps better targets of Wiki material. Although perhaps that could be solved by adding more comments to source... I think the abstractions in Lift are fantastic but it doesn't do learners any favours to protect them from the abstractions that lie below... (by the way, how do I get an account? There's some typos I could fix) Joe On Jun 1, 10:07 pm, Xavi Ramirez xavi@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I'm a bit confused about the future of the lift wiki. What's the end goal? In an ideal world is it supposed to be the main repository of lift knowledge, or just another documentation source? I personally feel that having one repository of knowledge is much more noob friendly. Currently new members have to navigate through started guides, books, e-mail threads, scala docs, and personal blogs to find relative information. Though the get started guided and book provide a good introduction, it's hard to progress from novice to intermediate with these fragmented resources. Thanks, Xavi --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Future of the Lift wiki
Having gone through Rails, the Google App Engine with Django, and web2py over the last four years, I have seen it all as far as learning new frameworks goes, and I have posted a few ideas on that subject both here and on the book group. For those of us spoiled by the wealth of learning material on Rails, and to a lesser degree Django and web2py, all I can say is: 'Lift is a new framework, and a sophisticated one at that, which uses a new language derived from a convoluted one, and is at a relatively early stage of development, so therefore the designers are forging ahead to completion of the foundation, and thus there are few who can devote the time to creating the documentation we newcomers need.' My post on the book group defined the three classes of useful documents to be the Guidebook, the Encyclopedia, and the Cookbook. My role for the wiki is to hold Cookbook recipes which answer the most common 'how to' questions we encounter when building a website. In my personal learning quest, I am extending the 'ToDo' app by adding pieces of functionality, like many-to-many tagging, date manipulation, deletion, an admin interface, etc. As I come across solutions or questions, I post those on the group in order to help others and to get improvements and refinements from the members. David is right... Lift and Scala together are taking web applications to a whole new level of performance, so naturally it will take a little time to make things happen. By the way, today my copies of David's and Martin's Scala books arrived, and I urge all to purchase them yourselves! On Jun 1, 3:35 pm, Charles F. Munat c...@munat.com wrote: Hi, Xavi, One of my tasks is to come up with a good organization for the wiki and a site map, as well as a list of things we'd like to add to it. Unfortunately, with the coming Scala/Liftoff and OSB conferences, I've been swamped with other things. But I am working on it, albeit slowly. If you have any specific recommendations, please post them. Thanks! Chas. Xavi Ramirez wrote: Hello, I'm a bit confused about the future of the lift wiki. What's the end goal? In an ideal world is it supposed to be the main repository of lift knowledge, or just another documentation source? I personally feel that having one repository of knowledge is much more noob friendly. Currently new members have to navigate through started guides, books, e-mail threads, scala docs, and personal blogs to find relative information. Though the get started guided and book provide a good introduction, it's hard to progress from novice to intermediate with these fragmented resources. Thanks, Xavi --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
