Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
- Original Message - From: "Werner LEMBERG" To: Cc: ; ; ; ; Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 6:23 AM Subject: Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074) No lyric ties either... So your view is that lyric ties are not used in the real world? No. I simply can't discuss how lyric ties should look like since I haven't seen real-world examples in the scores I've used up to now. It seems that German engraving for classical music can live without it. They're definitely used in English 16C music, although I can't find an example right now. -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
>> No lyric ties either... > > So your view is that lyric ties are not used in the real world? No. I simply can't discuss how lyric ties should look like since I haven't seen real-world examples in the scores I've used up to now. It seems that German engraving for classical music can live without it. Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
I forgot these cases (o~è~in; a~è~in; o~è~an...). They are often elided
("quest'in" instead of "questa~è~in") by editors and composers.
So your view is that lyric ties are not used in the real world? I
still feel them as a pedagogy resource for young musicians or
something. Or maybe old scores did not use them and they are now more
often used. I don't know.
Several famous editors use them, with no particular rule.
Let's take the example of Ricordi Milano.
In this score, published around 1982, there's no ties (we can see a "na
è in" in the beginning):
http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/2/20/IMSLP81325-PMLP165637-la_danza.pdf
In this one, published around 1925, we can find ties (and it's not a
beginner score!):
http://216.129.110.22/files/imglnks/usimg/2/29/IMSLP80146-PMLP162554-Vivaldi_-_Agitata_da_due_venti__Griselda_.pdf
In every recent score I have from them, they always use ties. Those
which were done using traditional engraving as those using Finale.
I will have to do a better patch...
http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/
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Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
Le 11/08/2011 13:16, Francisco Vila disait : 2011/8/11 Werner LEMBERG: An example is the second aria of Susanna in Mozart's `Le Nozze di Figaro', bar 16: f2 f8 e8 g8c8 fin -- chè l'a -- "ria è an" -- cor Almost all singers I've met during my work as a coach have problems if they sing it the first time :-) That makes four vowels! i+a+e+a Yes :-) Since this is completely unexpected (and I don't know any other work of Mozart with a similar situation), people are stumbling there. Here http://cosinasdeleon.blogspot.com/2009/07/hinmo-leon.html are two different instances of 'ioa' but they come from two words, not three. First "-- gio~a" , then "Dio~a". No lyric ties either... So your view is that lyric ties are not used in the real world? I still feel them as a pedagogy resource for young musicians or something. Or maybe old scores did not use them and they are now more often used. I don't know. The first time I've seen tied syllables was in English engravings, but I'm unable to mention where. Cheers, Jean-Charles ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
2011/8/11 Werner LEMBERG : > >>> An example is the second aria of Susanna in Mozart's `Le Nozze di >>> Figaro', bar 16: >>> >>> f2 f8 e8 g8 c8 >>> >>> fin -- chè l'a -- "ria è an" -- cor >>> >>> Almost all singers I've met during my work as a coach have problems >>> if they sing it the first time :-) >> >> That makes four vowels! i+a+e+a > > Yes :-) Since this is completely unexpected (and I don't know any > other work of Mozart with a similar situation), people are stumbling > there. > >> Here http://cosinasdeleon.blogspot.com/2009/07/hinmo-leon.html are >> two different instances of 'ioa' but they come from two words, not >> three. First "-- gio~a" , then "Dio~a". > > No lyric ties either... So your view is that lyric ties are not used in the real world? I still feel them as a pedagogy resource for young musicians or something. Or maybe old scores did not use them and they are now more often used. I don't know. -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
>> An example is the second aria of Susanna in Mozart's `Le Nozze di >> Figaro', bar 16: >> >> f2 f8 e8 g8 c8 >> >> fin -- chè l'a -- "ria è an" -- cor >> >> Almost all singers I've met during my work as a coach have problems >> if they sing it the first time :-) > > That makes four vowels! i+a+e+a Yes :-) Since this is completely unexpected (and I don't know any other work of Mozart with a similar situation), people are stumbling there. > Here http://cosinasdeleon.blogspot.com/2009/07/hinmo-leon.html are > two different instances of 'ioa' but they come from two words, not > three. First "-- gio~a" , then "Dio~a". No lyric ties either... Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
2011/8/10 Werner LEMBERG : >> An example is the second aria of Susanna in Mozart's `Le Nozze di >> Figaro', bar 16: >> >> f2 f8 e8 g8 c8 >> >> fin -- chè l'a -- "ria è an" -- cor > > BTW, the next bar is > > a8[ d8] f8 g,8[ b8] d8 > > bru -- "na, e il" mon -- do > > :-) Thanks. It is available on page 346 of http://216.129.110.22/files/imglnks/usimg/6/66/IMSLP25315-PMLP03845-Mozart_Figaro_K.492_Act_4_IX--XI.pdf redirected from http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/25315 linked in http://imslp.org/wiki/Le_nozze_di_Figaro,_K.492_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus) -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
2011/8/10 Werner LEMBERG : >> I can't find it now, but I definitely remember having seen three >> syllables in a soprano aria (I think it was Italian). It was >> something like "-- to e in". > > An example is the second aria of Susanna in Mozart's `Le Nozze di > Figaro', bar 16: > > f2 f8 e8 g8 c8 > > fin -- chè l'a -- "ria è an" -- cor > > Almost all singers I've met during my work as a coach have problems if > they sing it the first time :-) That makes four vowels! i+a+e+a Here http://cosinasdeleon.blogspot.com/2009/07/hinmo-leon.html are two different instances of 'ioa' but they come from two words, not three. First "-- gio~a" , then "Dio~a". -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
> An example is the second aria of Susanna in Mozart's `Le Nozze di > Figaro', bar 16: > >f2 f8 e8 g8c8 > > fin -- chè l'a -- "ria è an" -- cor BTW, the next bar is a8[ d8] f8 g,8[ b8] d8 bru -- "na, e il" mon -- do :-) Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
> I can't find it now, but I definitely remember having seen three > syllables in a soprano aria (I think it was Italian). It was > something like "-- to e in". An example is the second aria of Susanna in Mozart's `Le Nozze di Figaro', bar 16: f2 f8 e8 g8c8 fin -- chè l'a -- "ria è an" -- cor Almost all singers I've met during my work as a coach have problems if they sing it the first time :-) However, I've *never* seen lyric ties in any edition of Mozart, be it Urtext or something else. Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
Am Mittwoch, 10. August 2011, 19:54:52 schrieb bordage.bertr...@gmail.com: > > Finally, 2nd and 3rd stanzas look _very_ improbable to me in that it > > has three syllables on a single note, which requires two lyric ties. > > o~y is a synalepha and it could be a in-word diphthong, y~ho is > > another synalepha, but o~y~ho is not a triphthong and can not be a > > three-vowel synalepha. > > > > If nobody finds a real example in literature, I suggest to remove the > > problematic case, it is too artificial. > > I agree, I never saw such a case. I can't find it now, but I definitely remember having seen three syllables in a soprano aria (I think it was Italian). It was something like "-- to e in". Unfortunately, I really can't find it any more. I thought it was in Rossini's Stabat Mater, but that was wrong. Cheers, Reinhold -- -- Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial & Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
Secondly, it does not follow the policy for syllable separator, which is '[space]--[space]', not '-[space]'. I already fixed it in this patch (for every language). Finally, 2nd and 3rd stanzas look _very_ improbable to me in that it has three syllables on a single note, which requires two lyric ties. o~y is a synalepha and it could be a in-word diphthong, y~ho is another synalepha, but o~y~ho is not a triphthong and can not be a three-vowel synalepha. If nobody finds a real example in literature, I suggest to remove the problematic case, it is too artificial. I agree, I never saw such a case. http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/ ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
2011/8/9 :
> I'd make the tie slightly shorter. I find it awkward that two adjacent
> ties collide so easily, for example here
> {
> \time 3/4
> \relative c' { c2 e4 g2 e4 }
> \addlyrics { gran- de_a- mi- go }
> \addlyrics { pu- "ro y ho-" nes- to }
> \addlyrics { pu- ro~y~ho- nes- to }
> }
> (example from documentation), or in the example you attached on the
> tracker issue page.
I have never liked this example in the documentation.
Firstly, it seems to mix Portuguese and Spanish.
Secondly, it does not follow the policy for syllable separator, which
is '[space]--[space]', not '-[space]'.
Finally, 2nd and 3rd stanzas look _very_ improbable to me in that it
has three syllables on a single note, which requires two lyric ties.
o~y is a synalepha and it could be a in-word diphthong, y~ho is
another synalepha, but o~y~ho is not a triphthong and can not be a
three-vowel synalepha.
If nobody finds a real example in literature, I suggest to remove the
problematic case, it is too artificial.
--
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com
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Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
So do I, but a shorter tie would collide with commas. The best solution is probably to shorten the tie and lower it according to the Y-extent of the covered letters. But this requires much more work. Maybe having two sizes of lyric ties would also be a good idea: a short one and the default one. Bertrand http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/ ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
I'd make the tie slightly shorter. I find it awkward that two adjacent
ties collide so easily, for example here
{
\time 3/4
\relative c' { c2 e4 g2 e4 }
\addlyrics { gran- de_a- mi- go }
\addlyrics { pu- "ro y ho-" nes- to }
\addlyrics { pu- ro~y~ho- nes- to }
}
(example from documentation), or in the example you attached on the
tracker issue page.
cheers,
Janek
http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/
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Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
Passes make and reg tests http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/ ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
Changes done. Passes make, regtest comparison and make doc. Bertrand http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/ ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
I've created tracker issue: http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=1807 Could you upload some pngs showing before/after output? It would be helpful for those who cannot build the patch themselves. http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/ ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
a 'while you're there' nitpick.
http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/diff/18/Documentation/notation/vocal.itely
File Documentation/notation/vocal.itely (right):
http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/diff/18/Documentation/notation/vocal.itely#newcode612
Documentation/notation/vocal.itely:612: code the tilde symbol (@code{~})
to get a lyric tie.
Hello, I know this was not your mistake but could we (while we are
touching this file) delete the first instance of the word 'code' so that
it reads
"Alternatively, you can use the tilde ..."
http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/
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Re: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
Please use tabs in MF files. Besides that, everythings looks fine. http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/ ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. (issue4808074)
Reviewers: , Message: Better handling of lyric ties: * The space between two tied words is no more fixed. Its value is word-space. The default space is therefore decreased. * New glyph, so that we won't need an external font. * Increased vertical space between words and tie. It is therefore now possible to have commas in tied lyrics without any collision (example: verte,~et). How to build it: rm mf/out/feta* make Regards, Bertrand Description: Adds a glyph for tied lyrics. Please review this at http://codereview.appspot.com/4808074/ Affected files: M Documentation/de/notation/vocal.itely M Documentation/es/notation/vocal.itely M Documentation/fr/notation/vocal.itely M Documentation/notation/vocal.itely M mf/feta-generic.mf M mf/feta-test-generic.mf A mf/feta-ties.mf M scm/define-markup-commands.scm ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
