Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[David Kastrup]

Leo Correia de Verdier  writes:

> I added necessary supporting code like Michael (and a voice filled
> with repeated half notes, so I could hear the tempo) and got it to
> compile compile correctly with tempo changes (at least alternating
> fast and slow sections) on Lilypond 2.19.82 Frescobaldi 3.1.3, so I
> wouldn't think that is the root of your problem.

It may simply be the MIDI device he is using.  My own Solton expanders
refuse to go above something like 256 quarters per minute (which is a
nuisance if you have \time 2/2 \tempo 2=136) and generally have a dim
view against beat moments other than 4 or possibly 8.  Which means that
you have to juggle with \scaleDurations and its ilk when generating
MIDI.

If we don't get to see actual compilable code and/or the generated MIDI
files, I doubt we will be able to help him.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Leo Correia de Verdier]

I added necessary supporting code like Michael (and a voice filled with 
repeated half notes, so I could hear the tempo) and got it to compile compile 
correctly with tempo changes (at least alternating fast and slow sections) on 
Lilypond 2.19.82 Frescobaldi 3.1.3, so I wouldn't think that is the root of 
your problem.

> 22 mars 2022 kl. 23:21 skrev Mario Bolognani :
> 
> Many thanks Michael for your comments. Unfortunately, due to my reluctance 
> (and perhaps inability) of using Port and Terminal, I am obliged to use 
> \version 2.20.2 with Frescobaldi 3.1.3, which maybe are the cause of my midi 
> problems. 
> 
> Anyway, many thanks again for your help
> 
> Mario
> 
> 
> Mario Bolognani
> mario.bologn...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
>> Il giorno 22 mar 2022, alle ore 22:10, Michael Gerdau  ha 
>> scritto:
>> 
>>> Here is my MWE (structure of lilypond coding regarding part of 
>>> “Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda” by Claudio Monteverdi):
>> 
>> MWE means I can take the code and compile it. And then it shows the problem.
>> 
>> I tried to amend your code as follows:
>> I surrounded it with:
>> \version "2.23.5"
>> 
>> \include "italiano.ly"
>> 
>> music = {
>> [here comes your code]
>> }
>> 
>> \score {
>> \music
>> \layout {}
>> \midi {}
>> }
>> 
>> That compiles and creates empty music. Now what is the problem?
>> 
>>> When I change \tempo in 3/2 time the speed is more or less the same...
>> 
>> I have no way to test that as your code does not contain *ANY* music 
>> whatsoever. I already said, when I created a piece on my own what you 
>> verbally described worked just nicely.
>> 
>> Please provide a WORKING piece of lilypond code that shows the problem.
>> That means with EXACT steps as to how the problem can be seen. Claiming "I 
>> change the tempo and it has no effect" is not helpful. We need to see 
>> exactly how you change the tempo. Because IMO quite obviously you are doing 
>> something wrong. I just don't know what.
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> Michael
>> -- 
>> Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
>> GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver
> 
> 

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Mario Bolognani]

Many thanks Michael for your comments. Unfortunately, due to my reluctance (and 
perhaps inability) of using Port and Terminal, I am obliged to use \version 
2.20.2 with Frescobaldi 3.1.3, which maybe are the cause of my midi problems. 

Anyway, many thanks again for your help

Mario


Mario Bolognani
mario.bologn...@gmail.com



> Il giorno 22 mar 2022, alle ore 22:10, Michael Gerdau  ha 
> scritto:
> 
>> Here is my MWE (structure of lilypond coding regarding part of 
>> “Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda” by Claudio Monteverdi):
> 
> MWE means I can take the code and compile it. And then it shows the problem.
> 
> I tried to amend your code as follows:
> I surrounded it with:
> \version "2.23.5"
> 
> \include "italiano.ly"
> 
> music = {
> [here comes your code]
> }
> 
> \score {
>  \music
>  \layout {}
>  \midi {}
> }
> 
> That compiles and creates empty music. Now what is the problem?
> 
>> When I change \tempo in 3/2 time the speed is more or less the same...
> 
> I have no way to test that as your code does not contain *ANY* music 
> whatsoever. I already said, when I created a piece on my own what you 
> verbally described worked just nicely.
> 
> Please provide a WORKING piece of lilypond code that shows the problem.
> That means with EXACT steps as to how the problem can be seen. Claiming "I 
> change the tempo and it has no effect" is not helpful. We need to see exactly 
> how you change the tempo. Because IMO quite obviously you are doing something 
> wrong. I just don't know what.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Michael
> -- 
> Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
> GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Michael Gerdau]

Here is my MWE (structure of lilypond coding regarding part of “Combattimento 
di Tancredi e Clorinda” by Claudio Monteverdi):


MWE means I can take the code and compile it. And then it shows the problem.

I tried to amend your code as follows:
I surrounded it with:
\version "2.23.5"

\include "italiano.ly"

music = {
[here comes your code]
}

\score {
  \music
  \layout {}
  \midi {}
}

That compiles and creates empty music. Now what is the problem?


When I change \tempo in 3/2 time the speed is more or less the same...


I have no way to test that as your code does not contain *ANY* music 
whatsoever. I already said, when I created a piece on my own what you 
verbally described worked just nicely.


Please provide a WORKING piece of lilypond code that shows the problem.
That means with EXACT steps as to how the problem can be seen. Claiming 
"I change the tempo and it has no effect" is not helpful. We need to see 
exactly how you change the tempo. Because IMO quite obviously you are 
doing something wrong. I just don't know what.


Kind regards,
Michael
--
 Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Mario Bolognani]

Here is my MWE (structure of lilypond coding regarding part of “Combattimento 
di Tancredi e Clorinda” by Claudio Monteverdi):


\key do\major
\time 3/2
\set Score.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 6 2)
\tempo \breve. = 70
s\breve.*20\break
\time 4/4
\set Score.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 4 4)
\tempo 2 = 65
s1*35\break
\once \override Score.RehearsalMark.extra-offset = #'(+13 . -1)
\mark\markup\italic\column{ "Sinfonia"}
\key fa\major
s1*60\break
\once \override Score.RehearsalMark.extra-offset = #'(+15 . -1)
\mark\markup\italic\column{ "Principio della guerra"}
\key do\major
\time 3/2
\tempo \breve. = 70
\set Score.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 6 2)
s\breve.*6
\time 4/4
\set Score.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 4 4)
\tempo 2 = 60
s1*38\break
\time 3/2
\tempo \breve. = 70
\set Score.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 6 2)
s\breve.*4

   % and so on

\bar "||”

When I change \tempo in 3/2 time the speed is more or less the same...

Mario Bolognani
mario.bologn...@gmail.com



> Il giorno 22 mar 2022, alle ore 19:26, Michael Gerdau  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Hi Mario,
> 
> please always include the list as well.
> 
>> Sorry Michael for my ignorance, but what is the meaning of the acronym MWE?
> 
> MWE == Minimum Working Example
> 
> It means a piece of code as short as possible that just shows the faulty or 
> suspicious behaviour.
> 
> That greatly helps others to help you because they see and understand what 
> you do and possibly what is wrong.
> 
> Another side effect is that while creating the MWE you often come to a point 
> where it starts to work which will give you a hint as to what was wrong in 
> the first place.
> 
>> In any case the performance of Monteverdi’s “Combattimento di Tancredi e 
>> Clorinda” in 3/1 uses something like \breve. = 70… 80, but my impression is 
>> that \tempo \breve = “something" is not a valid construct.
> 
> I don't know the music you are typesetting but I have successfully used 
> either of the following:
> \tempo \breve. = 100
> \tempo \breve. = 200
> \tempo \breve. = 300
> and they resulted in different speed upon playback.
> 
> That's what I wrote in my previous email. When it does not work for you, then 
> there may be something else that's wrong with your code but w/o knowing what 
> you do nobody can tell for sure.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Michael
> 
> -- 
> Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
> GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Michael Gerdau]

Hi Mario,

please always include the list as well.


Sorry Michael for my ignorance, but what is the meaning of the acronym MWE?


MWE == Minimum Working Example

It means a piece of code as short as possible that just shows the faulty 
or suspicious behaviour.


That greatly helps others to help you because they see and understand 
what you do and possibly what is wrong.


Another side effect is that while creating the MWE you often come to a 
point where it starts to work which will give you a hint as to what was 
wrong in the first place.



In any case the performance of Monteverdi’s “Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda” 
in 3/1 uses something like \breve. = 70… 80, but my impression is that \tempo \breve 
= “something" is not a valid construct.


I don't know the music you are typesetting but I have successfully used 
either of the following:

\tempo \breve. = 100
\tempo \breve. = 200
\tempo \breve. = 300
and they resulted in different speed upon playback.

That's what I wrote in my previous email. When it does not work for you, 
then there may be something else that's wrong with your code but w/o 
knowing what you do nobody can tell for sure.


Kind regards,
Michael

--
 Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Michael Gerdau]

And what \tempo should be adopted in order to have a medium-fast midi 
output? \tempo \breve. = 100 or 200 or 300 seem not changing midi output.


For me
\tempo \breve. = 100 or 200 or 300
does change the tempo rather distinctively. However you probably want 
something along the line of \breve. = 30 or so :)


To understand why it does not work for you a MWE might be helpful.

Kind regards,
Michael
--
 Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Mario Bolognani]

Any suggestion regarding this


?

And what \tempo should be adopted in order to have a medium-fast midi output? 
\tempo \breve. = 100 or 200 or 300 seem not changing midi output.

Many thanks for any suggestion.

Mario

Mario Bolognani
mario.bolog...@gmail.com 
baroquemusic.it 

> Il giorno 21 mar 2022, alle ore 23:04, Michael Gerdau  > ha scritto:
> 
> [what is the difference between \set Timing.measureLength = ...
> and \set Score.measureLength = ... ]
>> The Timing alias is given to contexts that manage the timing (measure 
>> length, subdivision, etc.). Usually, this is the Score context. However, if 
>> you move the Timing_translator to another context like Staff in order to get 
>> polymeter (in the upcoming version there will be a predefined 
>> \enablePolymeter command doing that behind the scenes), a \set for Timing 
>> becomes equivalent to \set Staff ... Thus, while using Timing is probably 
>> not very important for users who never typeset polymetric music, it is done 
>> in the documentation in order to account for all cases.
> 
> Ah ok. I thought there must be a reason :)
> 
> Thanks for explaining that.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Michael
> -- 
> Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de 
> GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver
> 



Mario Bolognani
mario.bologn...@gmail.com

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Michael Gerdau]

[what is the difference between \set Timing.measureLength = ...
and \set Score.measureLength = ... ]


The Timing alias is given to contexts that manage the timing (measure 
length, subdivision, etc.). Usually, this is the Score context. However, 
if you move the Timing_translator to another context like Staff in order 
to get polymeter (in the upcoming version there will be a predefined 
\enablePolymeter command doing that behind the scenes), a \set for 
Timing becomes equivalent to \set Staff ... Thus, while using Timing is 
probably not very important for users who never typeset polymetric 
music, it is done in the documentation in order to account for all cases.


Ah ok. I thought there must be a reason :)

Thanks for explaining that.

Kind regards,
Michael
--
 Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le 21/03/2022 à 22:49, Michael Gerdau a écrit :

{
   \time 4/4
   \set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 2)
   1 1 1 1
   \time 3/1
   \set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 6)
   1 1 1 1 1 1
}


I use basically the same except instead of
\set Timing.measureLength = ...
I have
\set Score.measureLength = ...

What is the difference and why/when would I prefer one over the other?



The Timing alias is given to contexts that manage the timing (measure 
length, subdivision, etc.). Usually, this is the Score context. However, 
if you move the Timing_translator to another context like Staff in order 
to get polymeter (in the upcoming version there will be a predefined 
\enablePolymeter command doing that behind the scenes), a \set for 
Timing becomes equivalent to \set Staff ... Thus, while using Timing is 
probably not very important for users who never typeset polymetric 
music, it is done in the documentation in order to account for all cases.


Jean

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Michael Gerdau]

{
   \time 4/4
   \set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 2)
   1 1 1 1
   \time 3/1
   \set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 6)
   1 1 1 1 1 1
}


I use basically the same except instead of
\set Timing.measureLength = ...
I have
\set Score.measureLength = ...

What is the difference and why/when would I prefer one over the other?

Kind regards,
Michael
--
 Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Werner LEMBERG]

> May be you can use something like:
> \override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
> \override Staff.TimeSignature #'text = \markup \musicglyph #"timesig.C44"
> \time 4/2

Yes, I thought of that, but...

> I'm pretty sure there is a simpler solution, but I don't remember
> it.

... Jean's solution is perfect :-)


Werner

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> In modern transcriptions of baroque music it is custom to use time
>> signatures for half the length.  For example, if you have 4/2 bar,
>> the time signature shows 'C'; if you have a 6/1 bar, the time
>> signature shows '3/1'.
>>
>> Is there a simple way to get the equivalent to the following
>> (invalid) syntax?
> 
> measureLength should do.
> 
> \version "2.22.2"
> 
> {
>   \time 4/4
>   \set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 2)
>   1 1 1 1
>   \time 3/1
>   \set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 6)
>   1 1 1 1 1 1
> }

Excellent, thanks a lot!


Werner

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Jean Bréfort]

Le lundi 21 mars 2022 à 20:37 +, Werner LEMBERG a écrit :
> In modern transcriptions of baroque music it is custom to use time
> signatures for half the length.  For example, if you have 4/2 bar,
> the
> time signature shows 'C'; if you have a 6/1 bar, the time signature
> shows '3/1'.
> 
> Is there a simple way to get the equivalent to the following
> (invalid)
> syntax?
> 
> ```
> \time 4/2*1/2
> \time 6/1*1/2
> ```
> 
> 
>    Werner
> 

May be you can use something like:
\override Staff.TimeSignature #'stencil = #ly:text-interface::print
\override Staff.TimeSignature #'text = \markup \musicglyph #"timesig.C44"
\time 4/2

I'm pretty sure there is a simpler solution, but I don't remember it.

Hope this helps
Jean

Re: 'baroque' time signatures

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le 21/03/2022 à 21:37, Werner LEMBERG a écrit :

In modern transcriptions of baroque music it is custom to use time
signatures for half the length.  For example, if you have 4/2 bar, the
time signature shows 'C'; if you have a 6/1 bar, the time signature
shows '3/1'.

Is there a simple way to get the equivalent to the following (invalid)
syntax?

```
\time 4/2*1/2
\time 6/1*1/2
```


Werner




measureLength should do.

\version "2.22.2"

{
  \time 4/4
  \set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 2)
  1 1 1 1
  \time 3/1
  \set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 6)
  1 1 1 1 1 1
}


Jean

'baroque' time signatures

[Werner LEMBERG]

In modern transcriptions of baroque music it is custom to use time
signatures for half the length.  For example, if you have 4/2 bar, the
time signature shows 'C'; if you have a 6/1 bar, the time signature
shows '3/1'.

Is there a simple way to get the equivalent to the following (invalid)
syntax?

```
\time 4/2*1/2
\time 6/1*1/2
```


   Werner