Re: Is Lilypond’s G-Clef too straight?

[lilypond]

Hi Martín,

Thank you for taking the time! Note that what I sent are by no means proposed 
alternatives, but just quick and dirty hacks for getting a sort of feeling 
about the difference. Lilypond’s G-Clef is not meant to be rotated, and will 
not look good this way.

Generally you find both a rotation of the clef and the top slouching a bit 
forward. Or a lot forward. I’ve seen edition where the G-Clef is rotated by 
probably 20-30 degrees or something.

Valentin

Am Dienstag, 17. August 2021, 22:36:30 CEST schrieb Martín Rincón Botero:
> Hi Valentin,
> 
> just sending my two cents, since I belong to one of those who feel that
> Lilypond has a quite characteristic G-clef (not ugly, but I wouldn't call
> it "normal" or "standard"). I just looked at your two proposals and browsed
> through random scores on IMSLP. Almost all of the IMSLP examples show a
> clef that slightly (sometimes not so slightly!) lean a bit forward with one
> striking example that does the exact opposite. I would agree with you that
> a small rotation forward looks a bit more standard and find especially the
> first rotated clef very nice. The "straightness" of Lilypond's clef becomes
> more apparent to me in the small clef for some reason. That perception goes
> away with the first rotated clef. The second rotated clef looks to me a bit
> too leaning forward. Could it be that the scores that use a more marked
> rotation use a clef with more "paunch" to compensate for the extra
> rotation? Martín.
> www.martinrinconbotero.com
> 
> On ago. 12 2021, at 2:59 pm, Valentin Petzel  wrote:
> > Hello Silvain,
> > 
> > That is kind of the point. In most editions the G-Clef is not balanced,
> > but
> > leans a bit forward. Lilypond’s G-Clef does so too, but very slightly, so
> > the I’m asking for aesthetic opinions on whether this might be a slight
> > bit too straight.
> > 
> > Valentin

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Re: Is Lilypond’s G-Clef too straight?

[Martín Rincón Botero]

Hi Valentin,

just sending my two cents, since I belong to one of those who feel that 
Lilypond has a quite characteristic G-clef (not ugly, but I wouldn't call it 
"normal" or "standard"). I just looked at your two proposals and browsed 
through random scores on IMSLP. Almost all of the IMSLP examples show a clef 
that slightly (sometimes not so slightly!) lean a bit forward with one striking 
example that does the exact opposite. I would agree with you that a small 
rotation forward looks a bit more standard and find especially the first 
rotated clef very nice. The "straightness" of Lilypond's clef becomes more 
apparent to me in the small clef for some reason. That perception goes away 
with the first rotated clef. The second rotated clef looks to me a bit too 
leaning forward. Could it be that the scores that use a more marked rotation 
use a clef with more "paunch" to compensate for the extra rotation?
Martín.
www.martinrinconbotero.com

On ago. 12 2021, at 2:59 pm, Valentin Petzel  wrote:
> Hello Silvain,
>
> That is kind of the point. In most editions the G-Clef is not balanced, but
> leans a bit forward. Lilypond’s G-Clef does so too, but very slightly, so the
> I’m asking for aesthetic opinions on whether this might be a slight bit too
> straight.
>
> Valentin

Re: Is Lilypond’s G-Clef too straight?

[Valentin Petzel]

Hello Silvain,

That is kind of the point. In most editions the G-Clef is not balanced, but 
leans a bit forward. Lilypond’s G-Clef does so too, but very slightly, so the 
I’m asking for aesthetic opinions on whether this might be a slight bit too 
straight.

Valentin

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Re: Is Lilypond’s G-Clef too straight?

[Silvain Dupertuis]

Interesting!
As for me, the Lylypond orientation of G clef looks *actually better balanced* that the 
rotated one.

The rotated version seems to fall on the right instead of staying straigth...

I am not sure to understand all the details of the code,
but I tried to check the angles (using a PDF of the clefs and manipulating it 
with Inkscape)
The angles I found do not correspond exactly to the values I see in the code :

Second and third clefs are rotated left of angles of
respectively 1.42° and 2.37° (probably correspond to values 1.5 and 2.5 in the 
code)

measuring here :


Le 12.08.21 à 12:05, lilyp...@petzel.at a écrit :

Lilypond has a very characteristic G-Clef. I’ve only seen a handful of
Bärenreiter scores with a similar clef.

I personally find the Lilypond-Clef beautiful, but quite some people find it a
bit too characteristic. I think part of this could come from the Clef being
very straight. In most editions the G-Clef has a slant forward, so that the
right edge is less leaning backward.

So I’ve simply tried to rotate the clef a bit, and I’ve found that with just a
slight rotation the clef looks much more like a „standard” G-clef.

So what do you think about this? Could it be that the G-clef of Feta is just
slightly too straight?

Cheers,
Valentin



--
Silvain Dupertuis
Route de Lausanne 335
1293 Bellevue (Switzerland)
tél. +41-(0)22-774.20.67
portable +41-(0)79-604.87.52
web: silvain-dupertuis.org 

Re: Is Lilypond’s G-Clef too straight?

[lilypond]

Hello Werner,
 
> Actually, I consider it the most beautiful glyph of Emmentaler.

I fully agree with you there, I’d even say the Feta G-Clef is in some regards 
one of the most beautiful out there.

I do know that rotation is not an actual solution, for more reasons than that 
one, as rotation will mess with the direction of contrast and such stuff. This 
is by no means a proposed solution or anything, but just a quick and dirty 
hack to visualize the difference for the sake of determining if there is such 
an issue. I’m not sure myself if this is an issue.

Valentin

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Re: Is Lilypond’s G-Clef too straight?

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> Lilypond has a very characteristic G-Clef. I’ve only seen a handful
>> of Bärenreiter scores with a similar clef.

Actually, I consider it the most beautiful glyph of Emmentaler.

>> I personally find the Lilypond-Clef beautiful, but quite some
>> people find it a bit too characteristic.  I think part of this
>> could come from the Clef being very straight.  In most editions the
>> G-Clef has a slant forward, so that the right edge is less leaning
>> backward.
>>
>> So I’ve simply tried to rotate the clef a bit, and I’ve found that
>> with just a slight rotation the clef looks much more like a
>> „standard” G-clef.  So what do you think about this?  Could it be
>> that the G-clef of Feta is just slightly too straight?
> 
> This reminds me of https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/1752
> See also the discussion at
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2011-07/msg00183.html

Your idea is worthwhile to consider.  However, rotation alone doesn't
do it; in particular, it worsens the bottom of the glyph: IMHO, the
bottommost horizontal tangent must touch the outline exactly where it
is now.  Due to rotation, it moves to the right, causing an imbalanced
look for me.  This essentially means that you have to modify the
METAFONT code to get what you suggest.


Werner

Re: Is Lilypond’s G-Clef too straight?

[Xavier Scheuer]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 12:06,  wrote:
>
> Lilypond has a very characteristic G-Clef. I’ve only seen a handful of
> Bärenreiter scores with a similar clef.
>
> I personally find the Lilypond-Clef beautiful, but quite some people find
it a
> bit too characteristic. I think part of this could come from the Clef
being
> very straight. In most editions the G-Clef has a slant forward, so that
the
> right edge is less leaning backward.
>
> So I’ve simply tried to rotate the clef a bit, and I’ve found that with
just a
> slight rotation the clef looks much more like a „standard” G-clef.
>
> So what do you think about this? Could it be that the G-clef of Feta is
just
> slightly too straight?

Hello Valentin,

This reminds me of https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/1752
See also the discussion at
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2011-07/msg00183.html

Cheers,
Xavier

-- 
Xavier Scheuer 

Is Lilypond’s G-Clef too straight?

[lilypond]

Lilypond has a very characteristic G-Clef. I’ve only seen a handful of 
Bärenreiter scores with a similar clef.

I personally find the Lilypond-Clef beautiful, but quite some people find it a 
bit too characteristic. I think part of this could come from the Clef being 
very straight. In most editions the G-Clef has a slant forward, so that the 
right edge is less leaning backward.

So I’ve simply tried to rotate the clef a bit, and I’ve found that with just a 
slight rotation the clef looks much more like a „standard” G-clef.

So what do you think about this? Could it be that the G-clef of Feta is just 
slightly too straight?

Cheers,
Valentin\version "2.22"

slClef = {
  \override Clef.stencil =
  #(lambda (grob)
 (let* ((glyph (ly:grob-property grob 'glyph-name)))
   (cond
((equal? glyph "clefs.G")
 (ly:stencil-translate (ly:stencil-rotate (ly:clef::print grob) -1.5 0 -2) '(-0.06 . 0)))
((equal? glyph "clefs.G_change")
 (ly:stencil-rotate (ly:clef::print grob) -2 0 0))
(else (ly:clef::print grob)
}

slClefII = {
  \override Clef.stencil =
  #(lambda (grob)
 (let* ((glyph (ly:grob-property grob 'glyph-name)))
   (cond
((equal? glyph "clefs.G")
 (ly:stencil-translate (ly:stencil-rotate (ly:clef::print grob) -2.5 0 -1.5) '(-0.06 . 0)))
((equal? glyph "clefs.G_change")
 (ly:stencil-rotate (ly:clef::print grob) -2.8 0 0))
(else (ly:clef::print grob)
}


mI = <<
  \new Staff { \key c\major \grace {\once\hideNotes c64} c''2 e''4 g'' }
  \new Staff {\clef bass \key c\major \grace {\once\hideNotes c64} \once\override Staff.Clef.X-extent = #'(1.5 . 2) \clef "treble" c'8 g' e' g' c' g' e' g' }
>>

<<
  \new PianoStaff \mI
  \new PianoStaff \with {\slClef } \mI
  \new PianoStaff \with {\slClefII } \mI
>>

<<
  \new PianoStaff \transpose c cis \mI
  \new PianoStaff \with {\slClef } \transpose c cis  \mI
  \new PianoStaff \with {\slClefII } \transpose c cis  \mI
>>

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