Re: Biographies (was: OT: Beauty of programming languages)

[David Bellows]

Hey David, I saw this about work you've done on the emacs Lilypond
mode. Is the new code base available anywhere and is it usable?

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 7:37 AM, David Kastrup  wrote:
>
> Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse
> oculis meis vidi in ampulle pendere, et cum
> illi pueri dicerent: Σίβυλλα τί θέλεις;
> respondebat illa: άποθανεΐν θέλω.
>
> [I saw myself with my own eyes the Cumaean Sibyl hanging in a bottle,
> and when the boys said to her "Sibyl, what's your desire?" she answered
> them "to die is my desire", a quote from the Satyricon most well-known
> from the starting lines of T.S.Eliot's poem "The Waste Land"]
>
> When granted a wish by Apollon, the Sibyl of Cumis, one of his
> priestesses and seers, asked for eternal life.  Not having asked for
> eternal youth or health as well, she eventually withered and shrank
> until she would fit in a bottle, never able to die.
>
> Age: 50
>
> Blessed with great analytical talents but without the matching stamina
> to engage them with anything that does not interest me, I haven't been
> able to do any serious mental work that isn't fun.  An early attempt to
> escape the problems from depending on unreliable gifts by doing an
> apprenticeship in a bakery was shortlived since my body engaged in its
> own version of obsessive compulsiveness by turning allergic against most
> of anything to be found in a bakery within half a year, a fate that the
> physicians predicted to be rather likely for most work of my hands.  So
> I took up Electrical Engineering and managed to finish a diploma with
> the help of coeds (which consisted in dragging me to practice sessions
> where I "helped" them figure out the stuff from lectures that flummoxed
> them, and with organizing call services so that I would not miss
> deadlines and exams).  A later PhD never saw the completion of the
> thesis, actually sort of a pity as the work was pretty novel.
>
> The ability to pull through and complete stuff tends to be rather
> important in programming jobs, so my career ended up very spotty.  The
> last few years, I have spent living off the donations of various
> LilyPond users and programmers, a somewhat embarrassing endeavor as I
> often get locked up in less productive phases and don't communicate well
> (it turns out that medication making me more productive at the same time
> makes me completely unbearable and the other way round, and the vitally
> necessary blood pressure medication makes stuff more difficult, so I
> just stay off the psychopharmaceutics as there is no direction in which
> they would be unilaterally helpful).  Since I haven't properly
> maintained "customer relations" for the last few years (another
> "tedious" task), at the current point of time my "income" does not cover
> the costs of living in spite of several high-profile LilyPond figures
> supporting me with sums that do not reflect our relative merits.
>
> Living in a small town in Germany on the premises of my girl friend's
> riding school (another venture that's not particularly good at matching
> the bills), I spend most of my time at the computer, most of the time
> working on something LilyPond related.
>
> With a computing background starting with punched cards, a computer with
> various self-built extensions and programs (I could only start using
> CP/M after I've written my own boot loader and BIOS), I am pretty good
> at understanding low-level programming problems.
>
> At the same time, it offends my sense of design when implementation
> details leak into a system such as LilyPond, so much of my work is
> invested in making programming models work out cleanly and transparently
> and making "naive expectations" match the actual behavior by changing
> the behavior rather than the expectations where it makes sense.
>
> I've been playing violin from young age, added guitar to the mix, have
> sung in various choirs (a natural bass-baritone, I've sung either alto
> or high tenor in the last years as my falsetto is the best developed
> part of my voice and I prefer staying mostly above the break) and have
> taken up accordion a few years ago (as finger-style guitar was a
> mismatch in carrying power for chansonette performances).
>
> I've recently made Emacs understand Midi input but found that I just
> don't have the time and focus to work on bringing LilyPond's Emacs mode
> into the 21st century.  Which is a real pity as the current code base
> (not yet generally available) is quite nice for entering material but
> then breaks down in usability for doing line-wrapping, quick entering of
> durations and other editing stuff.
>
> So the number of unfinished projects and loose ends is constantly
> growing for me in spite of doing LilyPond full time already, and
> consequently my bad conscience on not getting stuff done is also a
> pretty constant fixture, making every moment equally bad for asking for
> support of my work.
>
> I probably share the problem of a lot of 

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Urs Liska]

Am 21.09.2015 um 12:13 schrieb bart deruyter:
> My turn :-)
>

Very interesting thoughts, thank you!

Urs

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[bart deruyter]

My turn :-)

I'm 40, started using lilypond a couple of years ago, I think in 2012, not
sure actually.

I play guitar as first instrument and teach it in non-traditional schools,
mainly because I don't have the qualifications on paper and now it's too
late/expensive/time_consuming to get one.

I use lilyond not only for the quality of the output but also because it is
so feature rich. I mean, a lot is very hard to achieve or not achievable
with other open source tools and the open source element is important for
me.

The fact that there seem to be very few 20-ish people (or none, I didn't go
through the entire list here) using lilypond does not surprise me.
And this is in my opinion not because of the way lilypond works
(text-based).

Teaching guitar to younger people and older people shows a clear difference
between their interests which could be extrapolated to much more (such as
choosing lilypond).
Younger people want to see results, without knowing how or what's behind
it. I give them a song to study, tabs, sheet music, whatever, and they're
happy with it.
The attitude from older people is more like "what is happening there... "
or, "why do you this or that." (both in technique as in background theory
of the song).

And I don't think it's because of the "age". I think it is because of what
people are used to. Now there's an app for everything. With a tap or a
click on a button people get "something" without understanding the
background. There's a tool for everything and more important, there's no
need to understand it. And if they want to understand it they find a link
to a wikipedia page :-)

People from an earlier period have known the time when dragging a picture
from explorer into word was not possible yet. They (I, or we) had to think
about clicking on the right buttons, and to memorise it I had to understand
the purpose, or the reason behind the button to import an image into word.

Now I've seen countless times people dragging a picture into word and press
the printer button without even thinking that word is not ment for printing
photo's, nor thinking about the quality setting in the printer dialogue.
But they are happy with it, because they have their photo on paper and
that's all they want, not a professional photo print.

Similarly: lilypond. You have to think about what you do with it, you have
to know the reason and the idea's behind the program itself to be able to
use it properly. Most  (younger)  people these days don't need professional
quality sheet music in the first place, they just want some result, no
matter how bad the image quality is, as long as they can read the music,
it's fine.
So why bother learning it?

The older way of thinking is not a bad thing of course, I prefer it too :-)
. In the case of lilypond, I learned a lot about music terminology, chord
construction, instrument specific techniques and signs simply because I
needed to find it in the documentation.

For example, for some signs I knew what they looked like, and what they
meant, but not the right word for it (probably a language issue too, most
of the web is English, and I'm Dutch, so confusion can kick in with a heavy
beat). What I mean is that software with a big learning curve makes  you
learn about more then the software alone. It makes people think in a
certain way and creates bridges between different subjects (e.g. the entire
list of emails about the e:5 chord, what it means, should mean, might mean,
now outputs, shout output, etc..  )

And to get on-topic again, this also makes a program language a beauty :-p.

grtz,

Bart


http://www.bartart3d.be/
On Twitter 
On Identi.ca 
On Google+ 

2015-09-18 16:03 GMT+02:00 zzk :

> Here I come, 50's :)
>
> Instruments: keyboards and acoustic guitar.
>
> Started using Lilypond in combination with Sublime Text 2 in 2013 to
> typeset
> my own music, after getting frustrated with Sibelius. I have learned about
> Lilypond through Steinberg's blog on their new notation software.
>
> Currently considering to change my workflow to Frescobaldi / Sublime Text
> combo. Frescobaldi has some fantastic features, but I find Sublime Text to
> be faster and more flexible for text entry, and it also supports the
> Lilypond's syntax.
>
> Zoran
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Way-to-flatten-nested-include-s-tp179946p181300.html
> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Biographies (was: OT: Beauty of programming languages)

[David Kastrup]

Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse
oculis meis vidi in ampulle pendere, et cum
illi pueri dicerent: Σίβυλλα τί θέλεις;
respondebat illa: άποθανεΐν θέλω.

[I saw myself with my own eyes the Cumaean Sibyl hanging in a bottle,
and when the boys said to her "Sibyl, what's your desire?" she answered
them "to die is my desire", a quote from the Satyricon most well-known
from the starting lines of T.S.Eliot's poem "The Waste Land"]

When granted a wish by Apollon, the Sibyl of Cumis, one of his
priestesses and seers, asked for eternal life.  Not having asked for
eternal youth or health as well, she eventually withered and shrank
until she would fit in a bottle, never able to die.

Age: 50

Blessed with great analytical talents but without the matching stamina
to engage them with anything that does not interest me, I haven't been
able to do any serious mental work that isn't fun.  An early attempt to
escape the problems from depending on unreliable gifts by doing an
apprenticeship in a bakery was shortlived since my body engaged in its
own version of obsessive compulsiveness by turning allergic against most
of anything to be found in a bakery within half a year, a fate that the
physicians predicted to be rather likely for most work of my hands.  So
I took up Electrical Engineering and managed to finish a diploma with
the help of coeds (which consisted in dragging me to practice sessions
where I "helped" them figure out the stuff from lectures that flummoxed
them, and with organizing call services so that I would not miss
deadlines and exams).  A later PhD never saw the completion of the
thesis, actually sort of a pity as the work was pretty novel.

The ability to pull through and complete stuff tends to be rather
important in programming jobs, so my career ended up very spotty.  The
last few years, I have spent living off the donations of various
LilyPond users and programmers, a somewhat embarrassing endeavor as I
often get locked up in less productive phases and don't communicate well
(it turns out that medication making me more productive at the same time
makes me completely unbearable and the other way round, and the vitally
necessary blood pressure medication makes stuff more difficult, so I
just stay off the psychopharmaceutics as there is no direction in which
they would be unilaterally helpful).  Since I haven't properly
maintained "customer relations" for the last few years (another
"tedious" task), at the current point of time my "income" does not cover
the costs of living in spite of several high-profile LilyPond figures
supporting me with sums that do not reflect our relative merits.

Living in a small town in Germany on the premises of my girl friend's
riding school (another venture that's not particularly good at matching
the bills), I spend most of my time at the computer, most of the time
working on something LilyPond related.

With a computing background starting with punched cards, a computer with
various self-built extensions and programs (I could only start using
CP/M after I've written my own boot loader and BIOS), I am pretty good
at understanding low-level programming problems.

At the same time, it offends my sense of design when implementation
details leak into a system such as LilyPond, so much of my work is
invested in making programming models work out cleanly and transparently
and making "naive expectations" match the actual behavior by changing
the behavior rather than the expectations where it makes sense.

I've been playing violin from young age, added guitar to the mix, have
sung in various choirs (a natural bass-baritone, I've sung either alto
or high tenor in the last years as my falsetto is the best developed
part of my voice and I prefer staying mostly above the break) and have
taken up accordion a few years ago (as finger-style guitar was a
mismatch in carrying power for chansonette performances).

I've recently made Emacs understand Midi input but found that I just
don't have the time and focus to work on bringing LilyPond's Emacs mode
into the 21st century.  Which is a real pity as the current code base
(not yet generally available) is quite nice for entering material but
then breaks down in usability for doing line-wrapping, quick entering of
durations and other editing stuff.

So the number of unfinished projects and loose ends is constantly
growing for me in spite of doing LilyPond full time already, and
consequently my bad conscience on not getting stuff done is also a
pretty constant fixture, making every moment equally bad for asking for
support of my work.

I probably share the problem of a lot of programmers of free software:
the time working on the program does not leave a lot of time for working
_with_ the program, so it's still important to get feedback from other
more arduous users.  Preferably without scaring them away forever.

-- 
David Kastrup

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[zzk]

Here I come, 50's :)

Instruments: keyboards and acoustic guitar.

Started using Lilypond in combination with Sublime Text 2 in 2013 to typeset
my own music, after getting frustrated with Sibelius. I have learned about
Lilypond through Steinberg's blog on their new notation software.

Currently considering to change my workflow to Frescobaldi / Sublime Text
combo. Frescobaldi has some fantastic features, but I find Sublime Text to
be faster and more flexible for text entry, and it also supports the
Lilypond's syntax.

Zoran



--
View this message in context: 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Way-to-flatten-nested-include-s-tp179946p181300.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Jean-Luc Chevillard]

Greetings (from Pondicherry, India)

Age: 59

My first degree was in Mathematics, and then I migrated to Linguistics 
(or rather to the History of Linguistics, which I see as part of the 
"History of Science").


This is the domain where I did my Ph.D (in the eighties).

I am a researcher (at CNRS) working on the ancient Tamil Shastric (i.e. 
"scholarly/scientific/«grammatical»")  literature.


I also work on the Tamil devotional corpus, which has been transmitted 
for many centuries with Musical Information attached.


There is also some metrical/rythmic information attached to that corpus.

At the time of MS-DOS, in the eighties, I have written a number of small 
utilities in Assembly language, and have also some familiarity with a 
number of programming languages (although I tend to view them with the 
point of view of the "historian of science" and frequently buy nowadays, 
on ABE books, second-hand Descriptions of Languages (from the sixties, 
the seventies, the eighties, etc.) which have been discarded by 
libraries, wondering all the time what life would have been if I had 
really used those languages and marvelling at the creativity of all 
those geniuses.


I have almost all the books of D.E. Knuth, starting with TAOCP, and 
continuing with his Collected Papers, etc.


I have never really seriously used TeX and MetaFont but I have bought 
the books containing the listings of those programs (in Pascal)


I have discovered LilyPond a few years ago and use it for transcribing 
Tamil Hymns for which I have found svara notation (in sa-ri-ga-ma 
format), as for instance in the following examples:

"https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard/Musical-Transcription;

I have never used Frescobaldi (I am not sure what it is, but I see it 
mentionned frequently on the list) and write my .ly files using a text 
editor (I currently use NotePad+)


I enjoy reading messages on this mailing list and have received helpful 
advice on a few occasions when I asked for help


Greetings to all

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris -- Pondicherry -- Hamburg)


"https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard;

"https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub;

"https://twitter.com/JLC1956;



On 2015-08-26 22:10, Urs Liska wrote:


This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of
LilyPond users
>and
>developers?

Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty





___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Jacques Menu]

Hello Jean-Luc,

> Le 16 sept. 2015 à 06:24, Jean-Luc Chevillard  
> a écrit :
> 
> I have never used Frescobaldi (I am not sure what it is, but I see it 
> mentionned frequently on the list) and write my .ly files using a text editor 
> (I currently use NotePad+)

Frescobaldi is an integrated development environment featuring a syntax and 
library-aware text editor and nice tools, you should give it a look.

JM



___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Helge Kruse]

I am 54 years old and work as software developer. Playing harp is my
hobby. I perform solo, in ensemble and in orchestras.

I used NoteWorthy Composer for a few years, tried MusixTex for a short
period of time and use Lilypond since many years. In most cases I
typeset music for harp, harp ensemble, and sometimes orchestral
percussion.

Regards
Helge

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Ralph Palmer]

>
> On 2015-08-26 22:10, Urs Liska wrote:
>
>> This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
>>> >and
>>> >developers?
>>>
>> Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty
>
>
Greetings -

Age: 67

Occupation: Retired. I worked for many years (~25) in wood or as a
carpenter; furniture, construction, maintenance carpenter. Then for ~15
years as an Energy Manager.

Music: I've played trombone, guitar, tabla, fiddle/violin (N.E. contradance
music/classical), and viola (N.E. contradance music/classical).

I started with Noteworthy Composer, then added ABC. Noteworthy Composer got
too expensive, so I switched to LilyPond. With Lilypond, I started out on
Linux with straight text entry through emacs. I started having trouble
getting all the pieces to cooperate with ABC on Windows (switched from
Linux in there somewhere), so I moved to LilyPond exclusively. ABC was nice
because there are a *lot* of traditional tunes transcribed with ABC.
Started using Frescobaldi when I started having trouble with emacs on
Windows, I think. I love Frescobaldi. I still use text entry. My most
difficult project so far has been transcribing/transposing Bartok's violin
duets down a fifth so they lie on the viola as they would on the violin,
then down another octave so my cellist wife and I can play the duets. For
personal use only for the next couple of years.

I'm grateful to the list for all the quick and thorough help the members
have been over the years!

Ralph

-- 
Ralph Palmer
Brattleboro, VT
USA
palmer.r.vio...@gmail.com
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[holl...@hollandhopson.com]

Age: 44

Occupation: I teach arts and technology at New College, The University of 
Alabama.

Music: I’m a composer and performer. Most of my compositions use live 
electronics in some way, usually via Cycling ‘74 Max. These works often have 
little or no traditionally notated material for the performer. I first looked 
into Lilypond in 2005 or 2006, but didn’t begin using it for my work until 2010 
when I read an article about it on createdigitalmusic.com. I started with 
Lilypond and the command line, then moved to Jedit and Elysium, and now I use 
Frescobaldi. I was initially attracted to Lilypond for creating tablature for 
banjo. No other notation program that I know of comes anywhere close to 
Lilypond’s ability to work with multiple tunings, for example. I’ve since begun 
using it for solo pieces and chamber music—work that involves more notation 
than my electronic pieces. I’ve made a few scores entirely with Lilypond. Most 
of the time, though, I create notated elements with Lilypond and then assemble 
them with Illustrator. My current work uses many aleatoric boxes filled with 
noteheads or rhythms or graphic elements. frameEngraver-bars-and-boxes.ily is 
my friend! And the Lilypond community has always been helpful.

Holland Hopson

Post & Beam  - music for 
banjo and electronics
http://hollandhopson.bandcamp.com/album/post-beam 
"...a haunting, often mesmerizing album of 
old songs and new sounds." -- Michael Eck, Albany Times Union
"...beautifully performed original and traditional folk songs set against an 
electronic dreamworld." -- David Zicarelli, Cycling '74

fieldguide.hollandhopson.com
www.hollandhopson.com

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Paul Morris]

I’m in my early 40s, and started using LilyPond in early 2011.  I love 
LilyPond’s flexibility and extensibility which lets me create sheet music in 
alternative notation systems that have a “chromatic staff” – especially 
“Clairnote”[1].  LilyPond is in a league of its own for this kind of extension 
and customization, and she handles it like a champ.

By working on extending LilyPond I’ve learned a lot of Scheme.  Before I had 
basically only used javascript.  (I’m not a professional programmer.)  I try to 
contribute back where and when I can.  

I play guitar, trumpet, a little piano, and I sing.  I have mostly used 
LilyPond for arranging fiddle tunes and similar pieces for string bands / dance 
bands that I’ve played in.  

Thanks to everyone for their contributions to LilyPond!

-Paul

[1] Clairnote: http://clairnote.org  
See also the Music Notation Project: http://musicnotation.org
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Tim Reeves]

Well, as a hornist, I reckon my instrument of choice is a lot closer to a 
"vague pointing instrument" than to a keyboard instrument! Sometimes when 
I point it this way it goes the other way. In reality, it depends more on 
my lips etc. than on my fingers, of which I use four when playing 
normally. I am not average, I confess.
:)


Tim Reeves


David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote on 09/14/2015 02:23:15 AM:

> From: David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org>
> To: Alexander Kobel <n...@a-kobel.de>
> Cc: Tim Reeves <tim.ree...@tokamerica.com>, lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Date: 09/14/2015 02:26 AM
> Subject: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages
> 
> Alexander Kobel <n...@a-kobel.de> writes:
> 
> > On 2015-09-12 02:17, Tim Reeves wrote:
> >>  > Am 11.09.2015 um 20:17 schrieb David Bellows:
> >>  > > Urs, I'd still like to see a poll or at least all the answers
> >>  > > collected and analyzed etc.
> >>  >
> >>  > I didn't intend to drop that poll idea.
> >>  > But I find this thread very interesting and also touching, andit 
should
> >>  > not be just buried in the mailing list archive. We should let it 
fade
> >>  > out and then see if we can give it a decent place somewhere.
> >>  >
> >>  > Urs
> >>
> >>
> >> So far, in the small, non-random sample we have, it looks like the
> >> average user's age is somewhere around 60. I guess you can teach old
> >> dogs new tricks! ;)
> >
> > Well, another interpretation is that to be able to spend the amount of
> > time required for using LilyPond, you need to be either retired or (by
> > profession) really desperately in need for its specific feature set...
> 
> Actually, it's more like if you're trying to teach old tricks, you
> better look for old dogs.
> 
> Text-based entry is an old trick in computing terms.  It appeals to
> people considering a keyboard as the principal means of input and who
> think of a mouse primarily as the main enemy of punch cards.
> 
> Now I'd like to think that this should generally make sense to the
> average musician, given that a lot more people play pianos, organs,
> flutes and other instruments with digital 10-finger input than, say
> theremins or other vague pointing instruments.
> 
> But I have to admit that bowed strings have quite a bit of analog input,
> and a trumpet does not sport more buttons than the average mouse these
> days.
> 
> -- 
> David Kastrup
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Wols Lists]

On 14/09/15 21:42, Tim Reeves wrote:
> Well, as a hornist, I reckon my instrument of choice is a lot closer to
> a "vague pointing instrument" than to a keyboard instrument! Sometimes
> when I point it this way it goes the other way. In reality, it depends
> more on my lips etc. than on my fingers, of which I use four when
> playing normally. I am not average, I confess.
> :)
> 
As a trombonist, I can beat you on that - I just wave it about, and use
at most one finger (I have a Bb/F). Still, I think a valve Bass Trombone
(Bb/F/G) (not that I've ever seen such a beast) would just about catch a
*typical* modern mouse up. A gaming mouse would still knock it into a
cocked hat.

Cheers,
Wol


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[J Martin Rushton]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 14/09/15 22:01, Wols Lists wrote:
> On 14/09/15 21:42, Tim Reeves wrote:
>> Well, as a hornist, I reckon my instrument of choice is a lot
>> closer to a "vague pointing instrument" than to a keyboard
>> instrument! Sometimes when I point it this way it goes the other
>> way. In reality, it depends more on my lips etc. than on my
>> fingers, of which I use four when playing normally. I am not
>> average, I confess. :)
>> 
> As a trombonist, I can beat you on that - I just wave it about, and
> use at most one finger (I have a Bb/F). Still, I think a valve Bass
> Trombone (Bb/F/G) (not that I've ever seen such a beast) would just
> about catch a *typical* modern mouse up. A gaming mouse would still
> knock it into a cocked hat.
> 
> Cheers, Wol
> 
As a church bell ringer I just have a length of rope to pull.  Game,
set & match! :)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
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=/G9M
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Alexander Kobel]

On 2015-09-12 02:17, Tim Reeves wrote:

 > Am 11.09.2015 um 20:17 schrieb David Bellows:
 > > Urs, I'd still like to see a poll or at least all the answers
 > > collected and analyzed etc.
 >
 > I didn't intend to drop that poll idea.
 > But I find this thread very interesting and also touching, and it should
 > not be just buried in the mailing list archive. We should let it fade
 > out and then see if we can give it a decent place somewhere.
 >
 > Urs


So far, in the small, non-random sample we have, it looks like the
average user's age is somewhere around 60. I guess you can teach old
dogs new tricks! ;)


Well, another interpretation is that to be able to spend the amount of 
time required for using LilyPond, you need to be either retired or (by 
profession) really desperately in need for its specific feature set...


Here: 31 to lower the average. Computer science grad student from 
Saarbrücken, Germany, working on the borderline between mathematics 
(computer algebra and numerics) and computational geometry.


I used to lead a church choir for seven years, and still sing in choirs 
and ensembles. Lily was my reliable tool of choice for quick-and-undirty 
engravings of (mostly) chorales last minute before the rehearsal. I'm in 
a long-standing love-and-hate relationship with LaTeX and solely use 
Linux since more than a decade. Guess that helped to dampen the learning 
curve. I never had trouble to produce perfectly usable scores for my 
needs, but that's almost exclusively "simple" vocal scores.
Only occasionally, perfectionism hits me for a while and I try to push 
Lily's and my abilities - typically, until life complains and steals 
back its time. Unfortunately, that means that there are some unfinished 
pieces (both of Lily code and musical pieces) lying around and waiting 
for my retirement... ;-)



Cheers,
Alexander

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Paul Morris]

Forgot to say I use Frescobaldi.

-Paul


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Jacques Menu]

> Working with those commercial tools is discouraging to me, too much mouse 
> fine-tuning of details!

I had actually started with Finale 3.0 long ago, and… finally gave it, licence 
and all, to a friend who was studying music.
There were about 45 tools in the palettes at the time to perform the various 
tasks IIRW.

JM


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[David Kastrup]

Leszek Wroński  writes:

> I have recently discovered Frescobaldi and I have to say that for big
> scores its "click at the score to put the source editor in the correct
> place" functionality is very efficient.

Well, this should work with a number of editors and previewers if you
read the instruction in the "Using LilyPond" manual about "Point and
Click", but of course not having to fight through any configuration for
that is convenient.

-- 
David Kastrup

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[David Kastrup]

Alexander Kobel  writes:

> On 2015-09-12 02:17, Tim Reeves wrote:
>>  > Am 11.09.2015 um 20:17 schrieb David Bellows:
>>  > > Urs, I'd still like to see a poll or at least all the answers
>>  > > collected and analyzed etc.
>>  >
>>  > I didn't intend to drop that poll idea.
>>  > But I find this thread very interesting and also touching, and it should
>>  > not be just buried in the mailing list archive. We should let it fade
>>  > out and then see if we can give it a decent place somewhere.
>>  >
>>  > Urs
>>
>>
>> So far, in the small, non-random sample we have, it looks like the
>> average user's age is somewhere around 60. I guess you can teach old
>> dogs new tricks! ;)
>
> Well, another interpretation is that to be able to spend the amount of
> time required for using LilyPond, you need to be either retired or (by
> profession) really desperately in need for its specific feature set...

Actually, it's more like if you're trying to teach old tricks, you
better look for old dogs.

Text-based entry is an old trick in computing terms.  It appeals to
people considering a keyboard as the principal means of input and who
think of a mouse primarily as the main enemy of punch cards.

Now I'd like to think that this should generally make sense to the
average musician, given that a lot more people play pianos, organs,
flutes and other instruments with digital 10-finger input than, say
theremins or other vague pointing instruments.

But I have to admit that bowed strings have quite a bit of analog input,
and a trumpet does not sport more buttons than the average mouse these
days.

-- 
David Kastrup

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Adrian Oehm]

45 years old

Day job: Chemist (like Borodin!)

Started with computers in the days of the VIC-20.  Went through several BASIC 
interpreter computers.  Work with both Windows (work) and Mac (home) now.  Work 
use includes some programming in high level BASIC-like languages, and some 
rudimentary SQL, HTML.

Vocalist (counter-tenor) in a church choir - have been singing since I was 
7-ish…  Know enough piano to tinkle and amuse myself.

Started engraving music (pieces I’d written) in the late 80’s on the Mac Plus 
(9” screen and all!) with a program called “Music Publisher”.  For its time, it 
wasn’t bad.  Came with a separate keyboard so you typed the music in, notes 
appearing on the screen on the staves.

Tried Finale…couldn’t work out how to use it…so I gave up.  Bought a lesser 
version from the same stable (well it is now) called Print Music.  I use that 
to tinker with pieces on screen then playback the audio.

Came across LilyPond when I was looking to set a vocal piece I’d written that 
had chanted sections.  I wanted stemless notes, and couldn’t do that in PM or 
Finale.  Lily did the job, and well, and I’ve used it to set a range of vocal 
music since - my own and others works.

While the interface can sometimes be a challenge, I steal from what I’ve done 
before and what’s in the manuals and usually get it to work.  I’ve made my own 
templates which makes it easier for me.  My code my not always be the 
prettiest, but, hey, it works!

Always impressed by the look of the output, as are those for whom I’ve set 
music.

I don’t mind the text input at all - I just use the basic editor that opens 
when you launch the application.  One thing I do like about the text based 
input is that even if I lose Lilypond for some reason, all my work is there 
accessible in text files…not like the pieces I have in Music Publisher 
files…now long inaccesible!
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Peter Gentry]

While we are at it

Age 73 - Married - North of England

previous life Senior Scientific Oficer - Heat Transfer
Mechanical Engineering Degree
Struggling clarinet player and general music lover

Started producing music scores using NoteWorthy Composer

Graduated to LilyPond some years ago - still very much on the learning curve.

Like many others have had a fair amout of programming experience on IBM and ICL 
mainframes, PDP8 mini computers BBC Microcomputers
and the works of Master Gates. Minimal exposure to the likes of unix and linux 
and cannot afford extortionate Macs.

Lilypond is a godsend and a wonderful example of open source software with so 
many contributing and providing help and advice to
hapless strugglers. Bravo.

Should any other clarinet players want some baroque music to play feel free to 
raid  http://sunscales.co.uk not all of the files are
finished and I'm sure many contain errors.  They also reflect my modest 
progress with LilyPond. There aren't many ly files but just
ask should you want them.

regards
Peter Gentry 



___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Fwd: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Edward Ardzinski]

I'm just about 6 weeks shy of 50, been programming computers for close to 20
years. I have been involved with deep database design, GUI design, and
reporting over the years, I'm primarily a SQL jock now.

I picked up Lilypond in early 2006, if the modified dates on my files are
any indication.  I'm assiduous that way - It's helped narrow the genesis of
ideas.

Lilypond's set up immediately hooked me, I really have never used any other
manuscript programs, so my perspective is probably pretty limited.  And
unique - as a programmer I created my own text editor...now that the source
code is on a very old computer, I'm kind of locked into the very old LP
version I run...I did some experimenting with v2.12, so I think I could
convert, but at this point I have not had any limitations in 2.6.5.  (yes,
that old)...

I am primarily a rock bassist, but with some classical piano and trumpet
training,and I also can play guitar.  I developed my own template and
methods of taking a simple musical theme and weaving it into a 2-4 minute
song.  I'm trying to write out a cogent essay outlining the symbiotic
process between my music LP and the other software products I employ. 
Mainly I create midi files for a 3 part "power trio" - a treble part, a bass
part, and a 2 stave drum kit.  From there I use AcidPRO to create mp3's
files to hear, in a general way, the way the music sounds.



--
View this message in context: 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Fwd-Re-OT-Beauty-of-programming-languages-tp181025p181091.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Fwd: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Edward Ardzinski]

At this point I can't even locate the LP 2.6.5 install package - so I'll be
faced with a change when I need a new computer, and that is probably a
shockingly small number of days.

I figure I can figure something out for opening ly files - they are text
after all.  The custom editor was fun and all that, but it's been 6 years
since I did an update to that even, and now have a "code fragments" text
file I keep open.

I think my structured work of the last few years will be easier to port - I
can't even get good work done on some of my oldest work since I was writing
things out in such a verbose way.  I suspect I will need primarily to tweak
the template file for the little bits I've read on newer versions of LP. 
The version of AP I'm using also also ages old, so I might be porting in a
lot of ways.





--
View this message in context: 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Fwd-Re-OT-Beauty-of-programming-languages-tp181025p181093.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Fwd: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[David Kastrup]

Edward Ardzinski  writes:

> Lilypond's set up immediately hooked me, I really have never used any
> other manuscript programs, so my perspective is probably pretty
> limited.  And unique - as a programmer I created my own text
> editor...now that the source code is on a very old computer, I'm kind
> of locked into the very old LP version I run...I did some
> experimenting with v2.12, so I think I could convert, but at this
> point I have not had any limitations in 2.6.5.  (yes, that old)...

10 years.  You know, if you created your own text editor on a very old
computer and still have the source code for it around: it's rather
likely that you can compile the bulk of the source code on a more modern
computer and get the screen/kbd code warped to the ncurses library or
similar.

Output quality has improved just the tiniest of bits since then.

> I am primarily a rock bassist, but with some classical piano and
> trumpet training,and I also can play guitar.  I developed my own
> template and methods of taking a simple musical theme and weaving it
> into a 2-4 minute song.  I'm trying to write out a cogent essay
> outlining the symbiotic process between my music LP and the other
> software products I employ.  Mainly I create midi files for a 3 part
> "power trio" - a treble part, a bass part, and a 2 stave drum kit.
> From there I use AcidPRO to create mp3's files to hear, in a general
> way, the way the music sounds.

In the last few years, Midi can be made to output a lot more of
articulations/dynamics and other niceties, and you can give various
instruments their own pan/balance.

-- 
David Kastrup

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Ralph Palmer]

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Flaming Hakama by Elaine <
ela...@flaminghakama.com> wrote:

>
> Started composing in high school in the 1890s,
>
>
Really? Wow! (1980s?)

Ralph

-- 
Ralph Palmer
Brattleboro, VT
USA
palmer.r.vio...@gmail.com
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

44 years old

Day job: web development, mostly JavaScript these days, but I've used quite
a number of others over the years (including APL).

Started composing in high school in the 1890s, primarily Jazz and chamber
music, with some larger works.  I've been using Lilypond to produce scores
for players, as well as to generate MIDI input for recordings.

My first exposure to music notation software was in college in the early
1990s, entering notes and rhythms in Finale for a professor (it was deemed
a waste of time to enter the articulations and dynamics, so those were done
by hand in ink).

I stuck with handwriting for many years--the only times I heard people talk
about Sibelius or Finale was to complain about it, so I was never curious
to re-evaluate, despite my process being pretty lame:  write music on paper
with pencil and ruler, then photocopy and scan it, then use photoshop to
add titles and text and deal with margins/sizing/pagination.

The need to transpose parts is what convinced me to switch to Lilypond,
some time around 2012.  I was introduced to Lilypond through a brass band I
played with that used it for its rep
http://brassliberation.org/sheetmusic.php

I've been largely happy with Lilypond for small and medium-scale projects.
There is of course a learning curve, but it is easy to consolidate
learnings, and keep developing better and better templates and techniques.
This mailing list is also wonderful.

The combination of working with larger scores, and using Lilypond for
workshopping and rearrangements is my current bete noir.


David Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
self-immolation.info
skype: flaming_hakama
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Fwd: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[J Martin Rushton]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

59 year old system manager with a background in system programming,
down to assembly language.  Generally I dislike GUIs, so vi + Lily is
"sweet music to my ears", though I do admit to Frescobaldi on
occasions.  I use it for a little composing, more arranging but mostly
generating clean scores for the family and on one occasion Wikipedia.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
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=9lZ0
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Mats Bengtsson]

> > Martin Tarenskeen wrote:
> >> This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
> >> and developers?

47! I've used LilyPond from the very first versions back in 1996. Actually,
I first used the MPP (MusiXTeX PreProcessor) by Han-Wen and Jan and then
started to test LilyPond as soon as it appeared. I contributed with some
patches and lots of bug reports and later spent too much of my time
supporting other LilyPond users on the mailing lists. Nowadays, I don't have
any time to contribute to the development, but still use the program every
now and then. 

In my profession, I'm an associate professor in Signal Processing. On my
spare time, I'm an enthusiastic violin player, among others specializing in
baroque music. My typesetting is mostly spent on preparing readable versions
of more or less unreadable manuscripts, some occasional transpositions and
simple arrangements, and finally to typeset songs that my daughters make up. 

   /Mats


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Jacques Menu]

63 years old, recently retired computer scientist, and an amateur double reed 
player after playing the double bass for some time.

Started with LP 2.12, across which I came looking for a LaTeX complement for 
producing scores.

After using TextMate on Mac OS X I switched to Frescobaldi some time ago. Quite 
happy with it, although the copy/paste/search/replace mechanism doesn’t behave 
as expected on a Mac. Maybe I’ll look into this one day.

My use of LP is mainly for my own needs to circumvent my reading limitations by 
producing better scores.
I also help friends in various contexts, such as creating a choir score with an 
added tenor voice in G clef for a singing girl-friend, or transposing for 
various instruments.

After some experiments, I’ve come to either scan scores with PhotoScore 
Ultimate (PU) and then go thru MusicXML to LP, or enter the LP syntax by hand 
if the original is too low quality. 

Before exporting as MusicXML, only the minimal stuff is worth doing with PU, 
such as checking keys, clefs and the number of notes/beats per bar, and moving 
some dynamics so as to attach them to the right notes.
In particular, fixing the slurs and number of rests in multirests can be 
avoided altogether, since the fixes are lost in the export. The bars numbers in 
comments and \barNumberCheck are fixed afterwards interactively if needed by a 
bash/sed script.

In one occasion, the LP code produced this way was rather messy, with a last 
staff being much too long to be displayed in PDF: importating the MusicXML into 
Finale 2014 and re-exporting it as MusicXML gave me a quite usable LP code. 
Sibelius 7.1.3 failed at this quite particular task… Working with those 
commercial tools is discouraging to me, too much mouse fine-tuning of details!

As to having other people move to LP, I’m conscious that text input won’t 
appeal to everybody, the leaning curve is steep indeed.

Thanks to all of you who contribute to LP development and user support: the 
latter is always fast and a most useful help!

JM


> Le 12 sept. 2015 à 21:51, Mats Bengtsson  a écrit :
> 
> 
>>> Martin Tarenskeen wrote:
 This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
 and developers?
> 
> 47! I've used LilyPond from the very first versions back in 1996. Actually,
> I first used the MPP (MusiXTeX PreProcessor) by Han-Wen and Jan and then
> started to test LilyPond as soon as it appeared. I contributed with some
> patches and lots of bug reports and later spent too much of my time
> supporting other LilyPond users on the mailing lists. Nowadays, I don't have
> any time to contribute to the development, but still use the program every
> now and then. 
> 
> In my profession, I'm an associate professor in Signal Processing. On my
> spare time, I'm an enthusiastic violin player, among others specializing in
> baroque music. My typesetting is mostly spent on preparing readable versions
> of more or less unreadable manuscripts, some occasional transpositions and
> simple arrangements, and finally to typeset songs that my daughters make up. 
> 
>   /Mats
> 
> 
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Josh Monks]

I'm 19 years old and a student of Music at the University of Birmingham.

I started to dabble in Lilypond a few years ago when it piqued my interest.
Nowadays I use it for engraving composition work and musical examples for
essays and other written work. I find Lilypond really useful because I can
do my work at home while most other students have to stay in the music
computer cluster slaving away in Sibelius well into the evening!

At the moment I'm arranging some string quartet music for a wedding. I am
finding Frescobaldi immensely helpful as it makes my workflow so much
quicker and keeps all the relevant files organised and easily accessible.

The two things I love about Lilypond the most are the beautiful output it
produces and the great power and flexibility provided by text input.

My thanks to the Lilypond community and everyone who continues to make it
such a brilliant tool for musicians.

Josh

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 18:43 Pierre-Luc Gauthier 
wrote:

> >>> This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
>
> I'm ~30 years age.
>
> Background:
> At first using Music Sculptor(for about two years), then Note
> Worthy(For about 2 years), then Finale(for about 6 years) and then a
> rather abrupt transition(not being a programmer at all) to the
> Lilypond software that I do now use regularly and have been for about
> 4 years.
>
> Purpose:
> I mostly do song arrangements for rock bands and "house bands" and few
> orchestral arrangements.
>
> My tool usage in a nutshell:
> Everything I do is centered around the Git revision control system
> using hooks, submodules, branches and what not. On top of that mr
> (http://myrepos.branchable.com/), gitolite, Vim, Frescobaldi, shell
> scripts, make files (They give me such a hard time!), LaTeX automated
> "booklets" for musicians, Automated audio and midi files generation (I
> am hoping to have automated audio sections (divided by rehearsal \mark
> or something) to be outputted. Thanks to Urs for the ScholarLy
> annotation system that I now use systematically: (everything seems to
> be ready for automated LaTeX reports for every project :-) ). I also
> am looking for automated small QR codes that would be generated on the
> "fly" and displayed as rehearsal marks to link directly to the right
> audio file on the web for practice purposes. All of that is hosted
> using linodes services as a central for git repositories, build
> machines, public hosting.
>
> Status:
> Most of that is in an infinite work-in-progress status but, as long as
> I can output charts and conductor scores, every thing is fine for me.
>
> Greetings to you all
> (It's my first post on this mailing list)
> --
> Pierre-Luc Gauthier
>
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Pierre-Luc Gauthier]

>>> This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users

I'm ~30 years age.

Background:
At first using Music Sculptor(for about two years), then Note
Worthy(For about 2 years), then Finale(for about 6 years) and then a
rather abrupt transition(not being a programmer at all) to the
Lilypond software that I do now use regularly and have been for about
4 years.

Purpose:
I mostly do song arrangements for rock bands and "house bands" and few
orchestral arrangements.

My tool usage in a nutshell:
Everything I do is centered around the Git revision control system
using hooks, submodules, branches and what not. On top of that mr
(http://myrepos.branchable.com/), gitolite, Vim, Frescobaldi, shell
scripts, make files (They give me such a hard time!), LaTeX automated
"booklets" for musicians, Automated audio and midi files generation (I
am hoping to have automated audio sections (divided by rehearsal \mark
or something) to be outputted. Thanks to Urs for the ScholarLy
annotation system that I now use systematically: (everything seems to
be ready for automated LaTeX reports for every project :-) ). I also
am looking for automated small QR codes that would be generated on the
"fly" and displayed as rehearsal marks to link directly to the right
audio file on the web for practice purposes. All of that is hosted
using linodes services as a central for git repositories, build
machines, public hosting.

Status:
Most of that is in an infinite work-in-progress status but, as long as
I can output charts and conductor scores, every thing is fine for me.

Greetings to you all
(It's my first post on this mailing list)
--
Pierre-Luc Gauthier

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[PMA]

PMA wrote:

PMA wrote:

Martin Tarenskeen wrote:

This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?

My average age is 75.


Better answer -- My age is 75. I've been using Lilypond for ca 5 years,
without an editor (other than VI), and entirely for original
compositions.
My .ly files usually exist initially as output from the J prog. language.

A single movement may well have 2 final .ly files -- one optimized for
the score, the other optimized for MIDI output (in turn further edited
via Rosegarden).

P.S. I upload all results to IMSLP, upon copyright registration.


People have been so forthcoming on this thread, I feel like expanding
my entry background-wise a little. I was a pianist in academia for
decades, focussed most especially on the late works of F. Busoni.
My commitment to composition came late -- along with an interest in
programming, as the ideas that caught my fancy begged hard for
algorithmic carrying-out. I learned in order: BASIC, Forth (had a one-
year fling as a computer games geek), Pascal, C, and APL. This last
hooked me, and I've toddled after it into J.

Re IMSLP, I'd recommend it to anybody not bent on fame & fortune
via publication. IMSLP posts scores & audio, offers several levels of
Creative Commons copyright, and accomodates revisions. Last I
heard, they were considering offering bound hardcopy output for a
modest fee upon request. That was maybe a year ago, so I don't
know if it's come true.

Cheers!
Pete


Oops, forgot: was 16-year UNIX SysAdmin for the federal judiciary.
Reckon that covers it.

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Stan Sanderson]

Briefly- Age: 75, using LilyPond since 2003, many Mutopia submissions which 
others have updated. Most challenging project (2003-2004): Joseph Archer's 
parlor piano transcription of his "Alice, Where Art Thou?." Mutopia was my 
example and teacher back then. I'm a retired physics teacher, frustrated 
classical guitarist, choir and solo tenor and very poor pianist. Love music; 
lots of hope but little talent. I use Frescobaldi (thank you Wilbert!) for 
vocal arranging and enjoy typesetting J. J. Froberger's PD keyboard music. 

My first computing experience was on an IBM 1620, now a Mac person. Briefly 
played with Finale, but it wasn't fun.

I'm grateful to Han-Wen and Jan for planting the seed from which so much has 
grown. That brief introduction about the aesthetics of music typesetting was a 
powerful motivating factor. Thank you to all who continue to improve the magic.

Stan
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[PMA]

PMA wrote:

Martin Tarenskeen wrote:

This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?

My average age is 75.


Better answer -- My age is 75. I've been using Lilypond for ca 5 years,
without an editor (other than VI), and entirely for original
compositions.
My .ly files usually exist initially as output from the J prog. language.

A single movement may well have 2 final .ly files -- one optimized for
the score, the other optimized for MIDI output (in turn further edited
via Rosegarden).

P.S. I upload all results to IMSLP, upon copyright registration.


People have been so forthcoming on this thread, I feel like expanding
my entry background-wise a little.  I was a pianist in academia for
decades, focussed most especially on the late works of F. Busoni.
My commitment to composition came late -- along with an interest in
programming, as the ideas that caught my fancy begged hard for
algorithmic carrying-out.  I learned in order: BASIC, Forth (had a one-
year fling as a computer games geek), Pascal, C, and APL.  This last
hooked me, and I've toddled after it into J.

Re IMSLP, I'd recommend it to anybody not bent on fame & fortune
via publication.  IMSLP posts scores & audio, offers several levels of
Creative Commons copyright, and accomodates revisions.  Last I
heard, they were considering offering bound hardcopy output for a
modest fee upon request.  That was maybe a year ago, so I don't
know if it's come true.

Cheers!
Pete

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[bobr...@centrum.is]

I'm 57.  Full-time orchestra musician (bass trombone).  I've been using 
LilyPond for at least 12 years, maybe longer.  First heard of it when there was 
an announcement on the MusiXTeX list that version 0.0.1(?) was released having 
grown from being a pre-processor to MusiXTeX.  It still required a working 
MusiXTeX installation at the time.  I had discovered MusiXTeX after having 
stumbled into (La)TeX when I downloaded an article I wanted to read which was 
in *.dvi format.  Prior to this my music printing software was Finale.  At 
first my editing environment was emacs.  Some months back I was trying to 
interest a friend in using LilyPond and recommended that he use Frescobaldi as 
his editor.  I had to try it out in order to show him how it worked.  I've 
pretty much stuck with that as my editor since then.  My main use is for 
arrangements I do or replacing lost/damaged parts or pages.  I've done a bit of 
'engraving' for others as well.

-David

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[David Kastrup]

MING TSANG  writes:

> I'm 68 years old and an IBM mainframe programmer using COBOL. Now retired.
> I've been using Lilypond since v1.12. One of the reason I choose
> lilypond because it supports UTF-8 for lyrics. Now I am gladly using
> V2.18.2 and V2.19.26.
> I sing in a choir.  Time and time, we were given photocopy music sheet
> and they are hard to read.  I started transcribe the photocopy music
> sheet by using lilypond for my own use.  Few months thereafter, choir
> member ask for printed copy of lilypond generated pdf. I am greatly
> obliged.    
> Few months ago copyright subject come up. I bought a song book
> contains 10 STAB choir songs.  I transcribe one of them and use for
> whole choir. Is this legal?  

Depends on the composer's date of death and whether you are transcribing
editorial annotations as well or just sticking to the Urtext.  "we were
given photocopy music sheet" does not exactly sound a lot more legal
either, though I have indeed (from Hohner Verlag) received "original
sheet music" that was a really lousy quality loose sheet photocopy with
an "original music, do not photocopy" stamp mark placed on it.

For your own private use transcribing from your own legal bad-quality
copy tends to be considered fair use in a number of jurisdictions.

-- 
David Kastrup

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[MING TSANG]

I'm 68 years old and an IBM mainframe programmer using COBOL. Now retired.
I've been using Lilypond since v1.12. One of the reason I choose lilypond 
because it supports UTF-8 for lyrics. Now I am gladly using V2.18.2 and 
V2.19.26.
I sing in a choir.  Time and time, we were given photocopy music sheet and they 
are hard to read.  I started transcribe the photocopy music sheet by using 
lilypond for my own use.  Few months thereafter, choir member ask for printed 
copy of lilypond generated pdf. I am greatly obliged.    
Few months ago copyright subject come up. I bought a song book contains 10 STAB 
choir songs.  I transcribe one of them and use for whole choir. Is this legal?  
Immanuel,Ming. 

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[David Sumbler]

I guess I had better join in this "off"-topic.

I use Lilypond and Emacs on Ubuntu 12.04.  I previously use Score for
the flute-and-harp arrangements that my former partner and I used to
publish.  I found learning to use Lilypond effectively much harder to
than Score was.

It's always much easier to hear wrong notes than to spot them in a
printed score, so I use midi output for that purpose.

I am 68, and recently retired as an orchestral flautist.  I am mainly
using Lilypond to put all of the music I ever composed into printed
form.  This is not really a vanity project - I know that my compositions
are not great works, and a few of them are absolute rubbish! - but it
keeps me doing something musical which will occupy me for years to come.
Having said that, I was interested in Pete's mention of uploading things
to IMSLP.  I might consider putting some of my better pieces there.

My computing background starts with a BBC Micro in 1982.  I soon got
into writing programs using BBC BASIC, but also loved using assembly
language.  I wrote a disassembler and output the whole of the OS in
assembly language, on reams of fan-fold paper!  I also wrote an
interpreter (in assembler) for a language called Forth, which I was very
keen on.

After a few years away from computers, I came back to them in 1994.  I
have always enjoyed programming, and have dabbled with C, Perl, Java and
a few other languages.  I use Python for anything I seriously want to
do.  For many years I used Psion hand-held computers, and used its own
OPL language for programming.

Wanting to understand Scheme because of its use with Lilypond, I
indirectly came across the book "Structure and Interpretation of
Computer Programs" by Abelson & Sussman, and am slowly working my way
through this.  The disciplined approach to programming is something I
could really do with!

David


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Wols Lists]

On 12/09/15 13:24, David Kastrup wrote:
> Depends on the composer's date of death and whether you are transcribing
> editorial annotations as well or just sticking to the Urtext.  "we were
> given photocopy music sheet" does not exactly sound a lot more legal
> either, though I have indeed (from Hohner Verlag) received "original
> sheet music" that was a really lousy quality loose sheet photocopy with
> an "original music, do not photocopy" stamp mark placed on it.

Dunno how it works elsewhere, but in the UK, if you pay the copyright
fees you get a stamp that you can place, in red ink, a "property of X"
statement that says copyright has been paid on the photocopy so it's legit.

So a lot of our copies have that stamp for some other band in black :-)

Cheers,
Wol

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Jean-Charles Malahieude]

Le 10/09/2015 15:00, Peter Bjuhr a écrit :



On 2015-08-26 22:10, Urs Liska wrote:

This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?

Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...


I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages,
but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage
and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving
existing compositions.



I'm now 54 and I first used LilyPond in 2001 (version 1.3.73 or 84, 
don't remember exactly) for an amateur choir where I sung bass (directed 
by my wife). I re-typed a Te Deum composed by a brother of a sopran, and 
found it fabulous. I prepare material for my wife who is also a music 
teacher (examinations).


With John and Gauvain, we began to translate the web site in 2004 and 
the documentation thereafter.


I'm not a programmer but use a computer since 1985.

Cheers,
Jean-Charles

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Bockett Hunter]

I'm 72.

I started using Lilypond because it's free,
and easy to use for a quick-and-dirty job.

I've continued to use it for its ability to set
Renaissance music: scholarly
appendages to notes, incipits, Petrucci
style breves and longs, indefinite length
terminal longs...

It's a lot better than what I did in the early
70's doing ASCII art for pieces from the
Odhecaton!  From that I moved on to
doing some work with Don Byrd's engraving
program, originally done with a pen and
ink plotter.

Bockett Hunter
Bockett1.Hunter AT gmail . com
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[David Bellows]

Urs, I'd still like to see a poll or at least all the answers
collected and analyzed etc.

Me:

46-year-old composer.

I use Lilypond for all my scores. I've used off and on for 10 years(?)
but every day for the past 3 years. I started using it because it was
free, produced excellent scores, and having drunk the LaTeX Koolaid it
seemed like a perfect fit.

I don't have access to any instruments so I compose directly into Lilypond.

I have a massive project in the works
(http://www.platonicmusicengine.com) that uses Lua to generate
Lilypond files.

I use LuaLaTeX to bind my scores together into nice books.

I use emacs for my editor as I'm able to do Lilypond, LaTeX, and Lua
files as well as my website and various other projects in the same
editor.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Urs Liska  wrote:
> Seems I have to chime in instead of preparing a merely statistical poll ...
>
> 42, pianist, musicologist (with half a decade's worth intermezzo of
> electronic music. Unfortunately that was just before my
> Lilypond/programming time, I already had some ideas to try generating
> LilyPond input from PureData improvisations ).
>
> I'm using LilyPond to typeset
> - transpositions from songs I have to play and that are too complex to
> transpose from sight
> - examples and snippets for texts
> - scholarly editions, which is what I'm also working for on a more
> general level.
>
> Unfortunately I don't recall when I first worked with LilyPond and why I
> started looking at it. One reason was definitely that I was frustrated
> with Finale (2001)'s habit of breaking things after the fact. Probably
> the idea of programmatic access also appealed to me already then.
>
> Urs
>
>
> Am 11.09.2015 um 17:27 schrieb Shane Brandes:
>> 41, organist,  composer frequently for the church, sometimes
>> commissioned works for special occasions and sometimes for self
>> amusement. I use LilyPond to set the above, and sometimes to typeset
>> stuff that has survived the ravages of time poorly causing the desire
>> to have a cleaner score to work from. Use Frescobaldi as a front end
>> as the error parser is invaluable. And yes I occasionally compose
>> directly into LilyPond format when pen and paper is a waste of time.
>>
>>
>> Shane
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Wols Lists  wrote:
>>> On 10/09/15 19:59, Tim Reeves wrote:
 Age: 49
 Amateur hornist.
 Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises,
 fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on
 development.
 I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP
 for roughly eight years.

>>> Age: fifty-something.
>>> Amateur trombonist
>>> Typesetting and transposing of parts (I mostly play bass clef but can
>>> read treble, but some fellow players only play one or the other, so the
>>> band needs parts in both, and then of course some parts come in tenor
>>> clef :-)
>>> I use a basic editor (kate, pfe, notepad).
>>> I've been using lily since 2.4 and have made the odd contribution.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Wol
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> lilypond-user mailing list
>>> lilypond-user@gnu.org
>>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>> ___
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> lilypond-user@gnu.org
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Paul Scott]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 08:12:41PM +0200, Jean-Charles Malahieude wrote:
> Le 10/09/2015 15:00, Peter Bjuhr a écrit :
> >
> >
> >On 2015-08-26 22:10, Urs Liska wrote:
> >>>This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
> >>>and developers?
> >>Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
> >
> >I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages,
> >but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage
> >and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving
> >existing compositions.
> >

I am 73.  I have used Lily on Debian Linux since the early 2000s.  I enter
music with Emacs.  I use Make to keep scores and parts updated.

I reorganize and/or recopy parts for orchestra, band, jazz band and
pit bands.  Sometimes because parts are hard to read or don't
provide enough cues or because players in the pit can't play the
doubles required.

I once with help did an entire concerto when the rental agent didn't
deliver the parts on time.

Paul




___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Urs Liska]

Am 11.09.2015 um 20:17 schrieb David Bellows:
> Urs, I'd still like to see a poll or at least all the answers
> collected and analyzed etc.

I didn't intend to drop that poll idea.
But I find this thread very interesting and also touching, and it should
not be just buried in the mailing list archive. We should let it fade
out and then see if we can give it a decent place somewhere.

Urs

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Michael Hendry]

I’m a 68 year-old retired GP.

I took up guitar aged 15, playing folk and rock stuff by ear, although I had 
learned piano long enough in primary school to know what a staff looked like, 
and I played in folk clubs and bands until medicine took over.

After a long career break(!), I took up guitar again when I retired, and went 
through a part-time jazz course at St Andrews University. Local musicians I 
play with tend to use Band-in-a-Box for lead-sheets, but this didn’t work for 
the course’s solo transcriptions, and essays which required notation mixed in 
with the text.

I tried Sibelius, but was frustrated by the lack of transparency in what it did 
(a simple modification tended to have hard-to-eradicate side-effects), and I 
discovered LilyPond.

Having a hobbyist interest in electronics, I encountered microprocessors in the 
1970s, and built a couple of kit computers in the late seventies and early 
eighties, acquiring some programming experience in hand-assembly, assembler, 
BASIC and Pascal in the eighties, and with C in the nineties.

My requirements of Lilypond are minimal in comparison to the professionals on 
the list, and such challenges as I’ve put to the list appear to have been 
solved within minutes by the experts!

As a poor reader, I’m grateful for the MIDI facility which helps me proof-read 
my puny and time-consuming efforts at transcription.

It strikes me that Lilypond appeals to programmers who do a bit of music and 
musicians who do a bit of programming - I’ve struggled to “sell” it to 
musicians who aren’t into programming.

Michael
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Fwd: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Urs Liska]

I assume this was intended for the list.


 Ursprüngliche Nachricht 
Von: Martin Tarenskeen <m.tarensk...@zonnet.nl>
Gesendet: 11. September 2015 23:09:32 MESZ
An: Urs Liska <u...@openlilylib.org>
Betreff: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages


> But I find this thread very interesting and also touching, and it should
> not be just buried in the mailing list archive. We should let it fade
> out and then see if we can give it a decent place somewhere.

I guess it's time to react to this thread that I originally started 
myself :-)

I'm 54. I don't remember when I started using LilyPond exactly, but it 
must be since 5 years or so. I have also used other text-based score 
programs like abcm2ps and mup, and occasionally I still use them. But 
LilyPond is my first choice.

I teach piano and have pupils from age 3 to 80.
I do much (re-)arrangements or transcription from existing works, for 
educational purposes. I did do original compositions in the past, and plan 
to do more of that in the future if time allows.

I use Vim or Frescobaldi to edit my scores. 
I sometimes write my own python or sh scripts to organise scores and 
parts.

-- 

MT

-- 
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Kim Shrier]

I’m 60 and I program for a living.

I have been using lilypond almost from the time it first came out.
I mainly use it for typesetting medieval and renaissance music,
sometimes from original notation or for re-typsetting poorly
typeset editions.

I have contributed some minor enhancements and bug fixes
when I first started using lilypond but nothing lately.

I use emacs for music entry and manage my music projects
using the fossil source control system and the mk make command
from Plan 9.

I used to use Calliope on the NeXT machine before I discovered
lilypond.  Tried Finale and Sibelius but I really prefer the text entry
and quality of lilypond. 

Kim Shrier


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Jonathan Webster]

So far, in the small, non-random sample we have, it looks like the 
average user's age is somewhere around 60. I guess you can teach old 
dogs new tricks! ;)



OK, I'm 77.   I use Lilypond only to engrave fiddle tunes for my own use.
Be well,
Jonathan



___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[William Marchant]

I am 84.   Wrote my first programme in 1965.  Didn't keep it up because 
I wasn't fast enough to earn money at it.


Did some Pascal programming later.  Interesting utilities, now all out 
of date.


Started using Lilypond and Frescobaldi about nine months ago on ubuntu. 
  I make music sheets for our trio.  Mouth organ - Me, and a piano and 
guitar.  Lots of fun.


Lots of good help on this forum.  I couldn't do without it.
Bill

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Colin Campbell]

On 2015-09-11 06:17 PM, Tim Reeves wrote:



So far, in the small, non-random sample we have, it looks like the 
average user's age is somewhere around 60. I guess you can teach old 
dogs new tricks! ;)





It has been said that the way to avoid becoming an old dog is to keep 
learning new tricks! I'm 63, and have recently  been  accepted as a 
first year apprentice carpenter, after 40 years in financial reporting 
and accounting. I discovered LilyPond well over 10 years ago, using it 
in support of the various choirs in which I sing bass and tenor. I've 
also been glad of the opportunity to put something back by helping where 
I can, lately on the Bug Squad.


Cheers,
Colin

--
I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with a catcher's mitt on both 
hands.
You need to be able to throw something back.
-Maya Angelou, poet (1928-2014 )

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Tim Reeves]

> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 22:22:45 +0200
> From: Urs Liska <u...@openlilylib.org>
> To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages
> Message-ID: <55f33815.40...@openlilylib.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> 
> 
> 
> Am 11.09.2015 um 20:17 schrieb David Bellows:
> > Urs, I'd still like to see a poll or at least all the answers
> > collected and analyzed etc.
> 
> I didn't intend to drop that poll idea.
> But I find this thread very interesting and also touching, and it should
> not be just buried in the mailing list archive. We should let it fade
> out and then see if we can give it a decent place somewhere.
> 
> Urs
> 


So far, in the small, non-random sample we have, it looks like the average 
user's age is somewhere around 60. I guess you can teach old dogs new 
tricks! ;)___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Brett Duncan]

I'm a 48 year old school teacher (Mathematics and Computing).

I'm also the pianist in a jazz ensemble, which is what keeps me using 
Lilypond - re-scoring pieces for which we have mainly hand-written 
scores (some of them atrociously scribbled down).


I used to mainly use jEdit/LilyPondTool, but now I'm using Frescobaldi.

I've tried converting the Music teachers at my school to Lilypond, but 
sadly they are welded to Sibelius.


Brett

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Wols Lists]

On 10/09/15 19:59, Tim Reeves wrote:
> Age: 49
> Amateur hornist.
> Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises,
> fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on
> development.
> I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP
> for roughly eight years.
> 
Age: fifty-something.
Amateur trombonist
Typesetting and transposing of parts (I mostly play bass clef but can
read treble, but some fellow players only play one or the other, so the
band needs parts in both, and then of course some parts come in tenor
clef :-)
I use a basic editor (kate, pfe, notepad).
I've been using lily since 2.4 and have made the odd contribution.

Cheers,
Wol


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Trevor Daniels]

PMA wrote Thursday, September 10, 2015 7:21 PM


> PMA wrote:
>> Martin Tarenskeen wrote:
>>> This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
>>> and developers?
>
> Better answer -- My age is 75.

At 74 I thought I might be the oldest user/developer, but it seems I'm not.

I use LilyPond with Frescobaldi mainly for generating tailored vocal scores for 
my village choir, sometimes transcribed, sometimes (re-) arranged; very 
occasionally originated.
Although a relatively seasoned user (since 2008), doc writer and occasional 
developer, I find the built-in templates so quick and easy for the vocal scores 
I set that I use them all the time.

Trevor
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Shane Brandes]

41, organist,  composer frequently for the church, sometimes
commissioned works for special occasions and sometimes for self
amusement. I use LilyPond to set the above, and sometimes to typeset
stuff that has survived the ravages of time poorly causing the desire
to have a cleaner score to work from. Use Frescobaldi as a front end
as the error parser is invaluable. And yes I occasionally compose
directly into LilyPond format when pen and paper is a waste of time.


Shane


On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Wols Lists  wrote:
> On 10/09/15 19:59, Tim Reeves wrote:
>> Age: 49
>> Amateur hornist.
>> Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises,
>> fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on
>> development.
>> I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP
>> for roughly eight years.
>>
> Age: fifty-something.
> Amateur trombonist
> Typesetting and transposing of parts (I mostly play bass clef but can
> read treble, but some fellow players only play one or the other, so the
> band needs parts in both, and then of course some parts come in tenor
> clef :-)
> I use a basic editor (kate, pfe, notepad).
> I've been using lily since 2.4 and have made the odd contribution.
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>
>
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Urs Liska]

Seems I have to chime in instead of preparing a merely statistical poll ...

42, pianist, musicologist (with half a decade's worth intermezzo of
electronic music. Unfortunately that was just before my
Lilypond/programming time, I already had some ideas to try generating
LilyPond input from PureData improvisations ).

I'm using LilyPond to typeset
- transpositions from songs I have to play and that are too complex to
transpose from sight
- examples and snippets for texts
- scholarly editions, which is what I'm also working for on a more
general level.

Unfortunately I don't recall when I first worked with LilyPond and why I
started looking at it. One reason was definitely that I was frustrated
with Finale (2001)'s habit of breaking things after the fact. Probably
the idea of programmatic access also appealed to me already then.

Urs


Am 11.09.2015 um 17:27 schrieb Shane Brandes:
> 41, organist,  composer frequently for the church, sometimes
> commissioned works for special occasions and sometimes for self
> amusement. I use LilyPond to set the above, and sometimes to typeset
> stuff that has survived the ravages of time poorly causing the desire
> to have a cleaner score to work from. Use Frescobaldi as a front end
> as the error parser is invaluable. And yes I occasionally compose
> directly into LilyPond format when pen and paper is a waste of time.
>
>
> Shane
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Wols Lists  wrote:
>> On 10/09/15 19:59, Tim Reeves wrote:
>>> Age: 49
>>> Amateur hornist.
>>> Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises,
>>> fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on
>>> development.
>>> I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP
>>> for roughly eight years.
>>>
>> Age: fifty-something.
>> Amateur trombonist
>> Typesetting and transposing of parts (I mostly play bass clef but can
>> read treble, but some fellow players only play one or the other, so the
>> band needs parts in both, and then of course some parts come in tenor
>> clef :-)
>> I use a basic editor (kate, pfe, notepad).
>> I've been using lily since 2.4 and have made the odd contribution.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Wol
>>
>>
>> ___
>> lilypond-user mailing list
>> lilypond-user@gnu.org
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Peter Bjuhr]

On 2015-08-26 22:10, Urs Liska wrote:

This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
>and
>developers?

Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...


I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages, 
but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage 
and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving 
existing compositions.


Best
Peter

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hello all,

Just in case this doesn’t make it to the poll stage…

>>> This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users and 
>>> developers?
>> Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
> I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages, but it 
> would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage and if 
> LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving existing 
> compositions.

Age: I am 46 (as of two weeks ago)

Editor Usage: I recently switched to using Frescobaldi, after more than a 
decade of using Lilypad (i.e., the built-in editor that ships with the Mac OS X 
binary).

Lilypond Usage: I am a composer. (Actually, as of my birthday I’m now a 
full-time composer: I “retired” from my erstwhile dual career in music and 
computer programming.) So, naturally, >95% of my Lilypond usage is for 
engraving original compositions. (I do transcribe/transpose/etc. a few existing 
compositions from time to time, but that’s a very small part of my overall 
workflow.)

Hope that helps!
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Peter Bjuhr]

On 2015-09-10 15:57, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

Just in case this doesn’t make it to the poll stage…


>>>This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users and 
developers?

>>Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...

>I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages, but it 
would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage and if LilyPond is 
used for original compositions or for engraving existing compositions.

Age: I am 46 (as of two weeks ago)

Editor Usage: I recently switched to using Frescobaldi, after more than a 
decade of using Lilypad (i.e., the built-in editor that ships with the Mac OS X 
binary).

Lilypond Usage: I am a composer. (Actually, as of my birthday I’m now a full-time 
composer: I “retired” from my erstwhile dual career in music and computer 
programming.) So, naturally, >95% of my Lilypond usage is for engraving 
original compositions. (I do transcribe/transpose/etc. a few existing compositions 
from time to time, but that’s a very small part of my overall workflow.)



Thanks for sharing Kieren!

I think there will be a poll eventually, but here's a short description 
in response:


I'm 44 and a composer and developer.

If I'm not mistaken I started using LilyPond and Frescobaldi in the 
autumn 2012.


Apart from my small contribution to Das Trunkne Lied my work has been on 
my own original pieces.


Best
Peter

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Simon Albrecht]

Am 10.09.2015 um 15:00 schrieb Peter Bjuhr:



On 2015-08-26 22:10, Urs Liska wrote:

This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
>and
>developers?

Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...


I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages, 
but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage 
and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving 
existing compositions.


Age: 22
I’m a student of church music, but very uncertain as to where (in music) 
I will end up :-)
I’ve been using LilyPond for roughly four years now, always through 
Frescobaldi.
The larger part of my typesetting work is existing music, though if I do 
arrangements and compositions myself I also typeset them with LilyPond.


Best,
Simon

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Tim Reeves]

Age: 49
Amateur hornist.
Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises, 
fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on 
development.
I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP for 
roughly eight years.



Tim


> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:26:24 +0200
> From: Simon Albrecht <simon.albre...@mail.de>
> To: Peter Bjuhr <peterbj...@gmail.com>, lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages
> Message-ID: <55f1bd40.3020...@mail.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> 
> Am 10.09.2015 um 15:00 schrieb Peter Bjuhr:
> >
> >
> > On 2015-08-26 22:10, Urs Liska wrote:
> >>> This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond 
users
> >>> >and
> >>> >developers?
> >> Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
> >
> > I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages, 

> > but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage 

> > and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving 
> > existing compositions.
> 
> Age: 22
> I?m a student of church music, but very uncertain as to where (in music) 

> I will end up :-)
> I?ve been using LilyPond for roughly four years now, always through 
> Frescobaldi.
> The larger part of my typesetting work is existing music, though if I do 

> arrangements and compositions myself I also typeset them with LilyPond.
> 
> Best,
> Simon
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[PMA]

PMA wrote:

PMA wrote:

Martin Tarenskeen wrote:

This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?

My average age is 75.


Better answer -- My age is 75. I've been using Lilypond for ca 5 years,
without an editor (other than VI), and entirely for original compositions.
My .ly files usually exist initially as output from the J prog. language.

A single movement may well have 2 final .ly files -- one optimized for
the score, the other optimized for MIDI output (in turn further edited
via Rosegarden).

- Pete


P.S.  I upload all results to IMSLP, upon copyright registration.

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Nathan Ho]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Kieren MacMillan
 wrote:
> Hi Nathan,
>
>> Most music I work with now is not conventionally notated,
>> so I haven't found much use for LilyPond recently.
>
> What kinds of things do you do?
> How *is* it notated?
>
> You may be the perfect [kind of] person to help make her the best notation 
> application ever.  =)
>

Most of it has no notation at all -- freely improvised (no written
notation), or purely electronic (no human performers).

Regards,
Nathan

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Karen S. Billings]

I'm still a LilyPond newbie...

As a retired Bell Labs engineer, I can honestly say that I have found LilyPond 
to be harder than learning vi, troff/nroff, and shell scripts.  (Maybe it's 
age, maybe it's having been out of the field for 7+ years, or maybe it's just 
that I was never an actual programmer...)

I am a volunteer church musician and use LilyPond to "scribble out" music for 
services - usually for setting alternate words to a given harmonization (with 
adjustments) for the cantor & guitarists, for writing viola parts for a given 
melody, or for setting knew set of words to an alternate accompaniment (so I 
can simultaneously sing one and play the other).

I found LilyPond more than I could handle, so I use Frescobaldi when preparing 
snippets, since it helps me with debugging & lets me see what I've written 
(never underestimate immediate gratification... Or immediate "whoops!" 
feedback).

I learned of the Utopia project when using a LilyPond engraving of BWV 680 
(J.S.Bach).

Since it's still new (6 months or so), I do find it a challenge...

Karen S. Billings CAGO

> On Sep 10, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Peter Bjuhr  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 2015-08-26 22:10, Urs Liska wrote:
>>> This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
>>> >and
>>> >developers?
>> Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
> 
> I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in ages, but it 
> would be interesting to know more about stuff like editor usage and if 
> LilyPond is used for original compositions or for engraving existing 
> compositions.
> 
> Best
> Peter
> 
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Hi,
I’m now 42, singer/songwriter and collector of German and international folk 
music. Former scout and LARP bard. Otherwise media designer and programmer.

I’m using LilyPond on OSX since summer 2005, previously with different editors 
(Smultron, TextWrangler, Eclipse), since maybe two years exclusively with 
Frescobaldi.

Mostly I prepare lead sheets and songbooklets for me and my friends and family 
from songs that I like and some of my own.
Since I also like to work with ConTeXt (a modern alternative to LaTeX that 
makes good use of LuaTeX), I’ve my own workflow to combine both (see 
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/LilyPond).
So I mostly engrave existing music, often with my own arrangements, but need 
LilyPond also as a composition tool (I need to hear the MIDI to be able to get 
the rhythm notation right or to test arrangements).

I just released my first CD, see http://www.fiee.net/auditive/ (everything in 
German); notes are available, LilyPond sources on request.

Greetlings, Hraban
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
http://www.fiee.net
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)





___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[H. S. Teoh]

[...]
> > On Sep 10, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Peter Bjuhr  wrote:
> > 
> > On 2015-08-26 22:10, Urs Liska wrote:
> >>> This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond
> >>> users and developers?
> >> Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...
> > 
> > I send in this reminder not because I'm especially interested in
> > ages, but it would be interesting to know more about stuff like
> > editor usage and if LilyPond is used for original compositions or
> > for engraving existing compositions.
[...]

I'm 40, and use LilyPond primarily for my own original compositions,
both for typesetting and for midi output.  On a few occasions I've
transcribed a few simple pieces here and there, mainly for my own
studies, and sometimes short snippets of other composers' pieces for
analysis/critique purposes.

Since I'm a programmer by profession, I have no problem with using
LilyPond's text-only input directly (via vim) -- in fact, I prefer
working that way. The text-based input format has made it easy to write
helper programs and scripts that allow me to work around limitations in
LilyPond's midi output capabilities, and I've managed to get quite
decent midi output that way.

(In fact, I've been able to automate the rather elaborate process of
splitting a score into instrument choirs rendered into separate midi
files, to work around the midi 15-channel limit, automatically render
each of them via a software synth and merging them back into a single
audio file using the audio processing program sox. The flexibility of
LilyPond's input format greatly helped in making this possible.)


--T

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Nathan,

> Most music I work with now is not conventionally notated,
> so I haven't found much use for LilyPond recently.

What kinds of things do you do?
How *is* it notated?

You may be the perfect [kind of] person to help make her the best notation 
application ever.  =)

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Nathan Ho]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Tim Reeves  wrote:
> Age: 49
> Amateur hornist.
> Typesetting of existing parts, occasionally creating simple exercises,
> fingering charts, etc. Not a regular user, but like to keep up on
> development.
> I use Frescobaldi every time for some time now, and I've been using LP for
> roughly eight years.
>

Age: 18
Composition and piano student. I have been using LilyPond on-and-off
for about six years, nowadays mostly for arrangements and
transcriptions. Most music I work with now is not conventionally
notated, so I haven't found much use for LilyPond recently.

Regards,
Nathan

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[PMA]

PMA wrote:

Martin Tarenskeen wrote:

This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and developers?

My average age is 75.


Better answer -- My age is 75.  I've been using Lilypond for ca 5 years,
without an editor (other than VI), and entirely for original compositions.
My .ly files usually exist initially as output from the J prog. language.

A single movement may well have 2 final .ly files -- one optimized for
the score, the other optimized for MIDI output (in turn further edited
via Rosegarden).

- Pete

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: David Kastrup d...@gnu.org

To: Andrew Bernard andrew.bern...@gmail.com
Cc: LilyPond User Group lilypond-user@gnu.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages


Andrew Bernard andrew.bern...@gmail.com writes:

lilypond-user-bounces+andrew.bernard=gmail@gnu.org on behalf of 
imj-muz...@bluewin.ch wrote:



1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring
to computer science?


Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!


Seriously?  My dad did all of his Theoretical Physics stuff including
the scripts by fountain pen for probably more than 4 decades.  And he is
4 years younger than Dijkstra (if you digged up the latter).  He still
does for his own work, though he switched to LaTeX for scripts and
articles a few decades ago.  I don't know how many bottles of ink and
blotter rolls he may have used up over the years...

--
David Kastrup

===

FWIW I did all my physics lecture notes for my BSc with a Rotring pen.

--
Phil Holmes 



___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Urs Liska]

Am 26. August 2015 15:38:17 MESZ, schrieb Martin Tarenskeen 
m.tarensk...@gmail.com:


On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, David Kastrup wrote:

 In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice
for the

 I recall that crucial to APL was its interactive environment. We had

 Still have a COMPASS manual around.  Put it up to Ebay at minimum
 starting price, but no takers.

:-)

This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users
and 
developers?

Remind me in two weeks and I'll start a poll on Scores of Beauty ...

Urs

-- 
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[David Kastrup]

Mark Stephen Mrotek carsonm...@ca.rr.com writes:

 lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org wrote:
 Of David Kastrup
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 8:24 AM
 To: Andrew Bernard andrew.bern...@gmail.com
 Cc: LilyPond User Group lilypond-user@gnu.org
 Subject: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

 Andrew Bernard andrew.bern...@gmail.com writes:

 lilypond-user-bounces+andrew.bernard=gmail@gnu.org on behalf of
 imj-muz...@bluewin.ch wrote:

1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring  
to computer science?

 Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!

 Seriously?  My dad did all of his Theoretical Physics stuff including
 the scripts by fountain pen for probably more than 4 decades.  And he
 is 4 years younger than Dijkstra (if you digged up the latter).  He
 still does for his own work, though he switched to LaTeX for scripts
 and articles a few decades ago.  I don't know how many bottles of ink
 and blotter rolls he may have used up over the years...

 With a great deal of respect and admiration, I return to you a quote
 you once sent to me:

 Wrangling down that attacking Rottweiler was actually not all that
 hard.  It boils down to the same grips and holds we used to employ for
 killing lions when I was young.

Oh, lions were smart enough not to mess with my dad.  Never pick a fight
with people who buy ink by the barrel.

-- 
David Kastrup

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages (was: Way to flatten nested \include's?)

[Johan Vromans]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:41:54 +0200
Jacques Menu imj-muz...@bluewin.ch wrote:

 In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice for the
 next two weeks : find out what this sample program (25 symbols
 altogether) does. A guy says two weeks later: « It does this and that…
 but it took me two and a half hours to find out! » And teacher answers: «
 Well, it took me two hours to write! »

I recall that crucial to APL was its interactive environment. We had
dedicated ttys with APL keys. Program development was adding one symbol at
a time, trying what happened. Repeat until the program was finished.

For real programming we wrote Algol on punch tapes, later punch cards.
Turnaround time was one day, so you wrote the program, printed it, checked
manually, proved its correctness (I was educated by EWD) and then delivered
it at the computer department. APL wouldn't have stand a chance in that
environment.

I did like the language, in a peculiar way.

-- Johan

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[David Kastrup]

Johan Vromans jvrom...@squirrel.nl writes:

 On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:41:54 +0200
 Jacques Menu imj-muz...@bluewin.ch wrote:

 In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice for the
 next two weeks : find out what this sample program (25 symbols
 altogether) does. A guy says two weeks later: « It does this and that…
 but it took me two and a half hours to find out! » And teacher answers: «
 Well, it took me two hours to write! »

 I recall that crucial to APL was its interactive environment. We had
 dedicated ttys with APL keys. Program development was adding one symbol at
 a time, trying what happened. Repeat until the program was finished.

 For real programming we wrote Algol on punch tapes, later punch cards.
 Turnaround time was one day, so you wrote the program, printed it,

You poor backwater guys.  Our card punchers printed a human-readable
version at the top of the card.  And since the line printers were under
the auspices of the system operators, one would not have wanted to wait
for the printouts of a listing.  I mean, in that case you'd have just
run the program instead and waited for the printouts of the run.  Or
more likely, the post-mortem-dump.

If you were lucky.

Still have a COMPASS manual around.  Put it up to Ebay at minimum
starting price, but no takers.

-- 
David Kastrup

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Jacques Menu]

1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring to 
computer science?

JM

 Le 26 août 2015 à 13:12, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org a écrit :
 
 Johan Vromans jvrom...@squirrel.nl writes:
 
 On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:41:54 +0200
 Jacques Menu imj-muz...@bluewin.ch wrote:
 
 In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice for the
 next two weeks : find out what this sample program (25 symbols
 altogether) does. A guy says two weeks later: « It does this and that…
 but it took me two and a half hours to find out! » And teacher answers: «
 Well, it took me two hours to write! »
 
 I recall that crucial to APL was its interactive environment. We had
 dedicated ttys with APL keys. Program development was adding one symbol at
 a time, trying what happened. Repeat until the program was finished.
 
 For real programming we wrote Algol on punch tapes, later punch cards.
 Turnaround time was one day, so you wrote the program, printed it,
 
 You poor backwater guys.  Our card punchers printed a human-readable
 version at the top of the card.  And since the line printers were under
 the auspices of the system operators, one would not have wanted to wait
 for the printouts of a listing.  I mean, in that case you'd have just
 run the program instead and waited for the printouts of the run.  Or
 more likely, the post-mortem-dump.
 
 If you were lucky.
 
 Still have a COMPASS manual around.  Put it up to Ebay at minimum
 starting price, but no takers.
 
 -- 
 David Kastrup
 
 ___
 lilypond-user mailing list
 lilypond-user@gnu.org
 https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Martin Tarenskeen]

On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, David Kastrup wrote:


In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice for the



I recall that crucial to APL was its interactive environment. We had



Still have a COMPASS manual around.  Put it up to Ebay at minimum
starting price, but no takers.


:-)

This thread makes me wonder: what's the average age of LilyPond users and 
developers?


--

MT
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Martin Tarenskeen]

On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Andrew Bernard wrote:


Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!


I looked it up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra


1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring to 
computer science?


--

MT___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Andrew Bernard]

Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!

Andrew




On 26/08/2015 23:30, Jacques Menu 
lilypond-user-bounces+andrew.bernard=gmail@gnu.org on behalf of 
imj-muz...@bluewin.ch wrote:

1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring to 
computer science?



___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Jacques Menu]

So I owe you 1€: what is you IBAN?

JM

 Le 26 août 2015 à 15:50, Martin Tarenskeen m.tarensk...@gmail.com a écrit :
 
 
 
 On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Andrew Bernard wrote:
 
 Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!
 
 I looked it up:
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra
 
 1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring to 
 computer science?
 
 -- 
 
 MT___
 lilypond-user mailing list
 lilypond-user@gnu.org
 https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[David Kastrup]

Andrew Bernard andrew.bern...@gmail.com writes:

 lilypond-user-bounces+andrew.bernard=gmail@gnu.org on behalf of 
 imj-muz...@bluewin.ch wrote:

1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring
 to computer science?

 Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!

Seriously?  My dad did all of his Theoretical Physics stuff including
the scripts by fountain pen for probably more than 4 decades.  And he is
4 years younger than Dijkstra (if you digged up the latter).  He still
does for his own work, though he switched to LaTeX for scripts and
articles a few decades ago.  I don't know how many bottles of ink and
blotter rolls he may have used up over the years...

-- 
David Kastrup

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[David Kastrup]

Jacques Menu imj-muz...@bluewin.ch writes:

 1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring
 to computer science?

5 forks.

-- 
David Kastrup

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Andrew Bernard]

I am older and know the answer. Am I eligible?

Andrew




On 26/08/2015 23:30, Jacques Menu 
lilypond-user-bounces+andrew.bernard=gmail@gnu.org on behalf of 
imj-muz...@bluewin.ch wrote:

1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring to 
computer science?



___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

RE: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

David,

With a great deal of respect and admiration, I return to you a quote you once 
sent to me:

Wrangling down that attacking Rottweiler was actually not all that hard.  It 
boils down to the same grips and holds we used to employ for killing lions when 
I was young.

Sincerely,

Mark

-Original Message-
From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org 
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of David 
Kastrup
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 8:24 AM
To: Andrew Bernard andrew.bern...@gmail.com
Cc: LilyPond User Group lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

Andrew Bernard andrew.bern...@gmail.com writes:

 lilypond-user-bounces+andrew.bernard=gmail@gnu.org on behalf of 
 imj-muz...@bluewin.ch wrote:

1€ question for the young : whom does EWD stand for, and did he bring  
to computer science?

 Writing by hand with a fountain pen. Look it up folks!

Seriously?  My dad did all of his Theoretical Physics stuff including the 
scripts by fountain pen for probably more than 4 decades.  And he is
4 years younger than Dijkstra (if you digged up the latter).  He still does for 
his own work, though he switched to LaTeX for scripts and articles a few 
decades ago.  I don't know how many bottles of ink and blotter rolls he may 
have used up over the years...

--
David Kastrup

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Werner LEMBERG]

 In a review on languages in the Communications of the ACM a long
 time ago, each language was described by a caption and a short
 paragraph.  Sample captions:

   APL : I can read hieroglyphs too.
   Prolog : If Prolog is the answer, then what was the question?

LOL!  Can you give a reference to this review?


Werner

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages (was: Way to flatten nested \include's?)

[Jacques Menu]

Hello Michæl,

In the APL course I took years ago, the teacher said: « Exercice for the next 
two weeks : find out what this sample program (25 symbols altogether) does.
A guy says two weeks later: « It does this and that… but it took me two and a 
half hours to find out! »
And teacher answers: « Well, it took me two hours to write! »

In a review on languages in the Communications of the ACM a long time ago, each 
language was described by a caption and a short paragraph. Sample captions:
APL : I can read hieroglyphs too.
Prolog : If Prolog is the answer, then what was the question? (Don’t 
misunderstand me though, I loved this language…).

JM

 Le 25 août 2015 à 01:37, Michael Gerdau m...@qata.de a écrit :
 
 While guile is aimed at being an extension language, don't forget that
 Scheme was taught at MIT for many, many years as the finest language to
 give students a deep insight into computing and computer science (refer
 SICP). [Sadly, they now teach Python instead. Real world practicality
 defeated beauty, insight, and elegance. :-(]
 
 Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder..
 
 Anybody remembering APL ?
 
 THAT is a beautiful language and most likely totally unuseable for the
 vast majority of today's aspiring programmers :)
 
 Kind regards,
 Michael
 -- 
 Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
 GPG-keys available on request or at public 
 keyserver___
 lilypond-user mailing list
 lilypond-user@gnu.org
 https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Johan Vromans]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:29:56 +1000
Andrew Bernard andrew.bern...@gmail.com wrote:

 quicksort=: (($:@(#[), (=#[), $:@(#[)) ({~ ?@#)) ^: (1#)

It's hard to believe that people only complained about Perl being line
noise...

-- Johan

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

OT: Beauty of programming languages (was: Way to flatten nested \include's?)

[Michael Gerdau]

 While guile is aimed at being an extension language, don't forget that
 Scheme was taught at MIT for many, many years as the finest language to
 give students a deep insight into computing and computer science (refer
 SICP). [Sadly, they now teach Python instead. Real world practicality
 defeated beauty, insight, and elegance. :-(]

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder..

Anybody remembering APL ?

THAT is a beautiful language and most likely totally unuseable for the
vast majority of today's aspiring programmers :)

Kind regards,
Michael
-- 
 Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages (was: Way to flatten nested \include's?)

[Andrew Bernard]

Greetings Michael,

I used to use APL! Truly wonderful.

As to beauty, while subjective, amongst mathematicians at least there is a 
shared sense of the beautiful, and not purely personal taste. Scheme has the 
elegance mathematicians and computer scientists perceive. Nobody could say 
Python is _beautiful_. [I use Python, so I am not just bashing it.]

Andrew




On 25/08/2015 09:37, Michael Gerdau 
lilypond-user-bounces+andrew.bernard=gmail@gnu.org on behalf of 
m...@qata.de wrote:


Anybody remembering APL ?


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[PMA]

Michael Gerdau wrote:

Anybody remembering APL ?


APL was my main lang. for decades,
as is now its superset/descendant, J.

I've got weary trying to tell anybody
why.  But the curious might take a
peek at

http://www.jsoftware.com/

Pete


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[David Kastrup]

PMA peterarmstr...@aya.yale.edu writes:

 Michael Gerdau wrote:
 Anybody remembering APL ?

 APL was my main lang. for decades,
 as is now its superset/descendant, J.

It is fitting that the language name is now a single character.  I am
just surprised that it is one in the ASCII character set.

-- 
David Kastrup

___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Andrew Bernard]

Before we all get booted off for being OT, here’s quicksort in J, using a 
concept called tacit programming:

quicksort=: (($:@(#[), (=#[), $:@(#[)) ({~ ?@#)) ^: (1#)

Truly beautiful, in all seriousness. This is not a joke! :-)

Andrew


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[Andrew Bernard]

Very amusing!

But what about B, C, D, E, F, G, K (an APL derivative), L (several), R, S, T (a 
Scheme dialect) to name a few?

Seriously now, APL had special keyboards with the symbols which were wondrous 
to behold. And indeed, J was constructed in recognition of the divine 
impracticality of it:

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_%28programming_language%29

To avoid repeating the APL special-character problem, J requires only the basic 
ASCII character set, resorting to the use of the dot and colon as 
inflections[7] to form short words similar to digraphs. Most such primary 
(or primitive) J words serve as mathematical symbols, with the dot or colon 
extending the meaning of the basic characters available. Additionally, many 
characters which might need to be balanced in other languages (such as [] {}  
`` or ) are treated by J as stand-alone words or, when inflected, as 
single-character roots of multi-character words.

But in fact, we used to use APL with plain ASCII keyboards – worked just fine. 
And to be somewhat less Off Topic, the purpose of our using APL was for early 
research and development in computer music and synthesis software at The 
University of Melbourne here in Australia. APL class languages are particularly 
nicely suited to algorithmic music composition work.

Andrew



On 25/08/2015 14:28, David Kastrup 
lilypond-user-bounces+andrew.bernard=gmail@gnu.org on behalf of 
d...@gnu.org wrote:

It is fitting that the language name is now a single character.  I am
just surprised that it is one in the ASCII character set.


___
lilypond-user mailing list
lilypond-user@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user